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Lost RV-10 door off take off what to do now?
Lost left door this morning on take off from home airport at KFWS at about 500-600 AGL. Was able to fly pattern and land without further incident. Retrieved the door from runway. Outer door skin torn at top near back hinge and outer skin was delaminated down to lower window level, the window of coarse was broken.
I had the planaround.com door latch (180 degrees) installed and door was in locked position with pins full extended when door retrieved so nothing is fool proof. Same door had popped open on take-off roll with stock Van's safety latch just after I got the plane. Tail appears undamaged and those on ramp stated door appeared to clear tail. Need advice on how to fix, insurance has $2500 deductable and have no idea how much would cost to fix. Should I make a claim and let insurace handle it, order parts and rebuild it myself (I am not the original builder so not sure I can even do this) or ??? Any builders in Fort Worth Spinks area that would be willing to help or at least look at and give an opnion? Do I need to file a report with FAA or anyone? Tower did not ask me to call them. Thanks Gerald N710WH dues paid |
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First of all, sorry for your accident and I am glad you are ok. I have to be honest. I can't see how the door could come undone if both pins were secured in the doorframe blocks and the center Planearound latch was engaged. Even if the top hinges completely came undone, the top of the door could rotate around the door pins at most. I would expect to see some damage in the door frame or pin area if the pins were engaged and came out. Either the pins were not engaged, or were not far enough into the structure to provide any locking. Do you have a visual alert when the pins are engaged properly? As far as repair, the door is custom cut and fitted to the frame. While the window, fiberglass and other parts are likely under 1K in cost, the labor is likely to exceed your deductible. But you are going to have to find someone to do the work for you and get an estimate. |
It may be more than you would like to do - but there is no requirement that you be the original builder to make the repair (ie., fabricate and fit a new door).
Track down someone locally who has -10 experience and go through what would be required. Then, decide if you want to give it a shot or hire it done. Dan |
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I suggest you install the door not latched warning lights from Vans if you do not have them now. And yes, pin engagement must be checked, every time. I do not let passengers close the door, I always do it myself. |
Don't bother with the claim if I were you. For such a small amount $$ to be out, that small claim will stay with you forever and could cause you problems down the road.
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no visual indicator installed
My best guess is that front and center latch closed but door had enough flex to allow back pins to be outside. Left door was harder to close than right so was likely 1st door built and builder had more expericence when right door was built-better fit and finish on right.
Will have indicators installed prior to flying again. Gerald |
You can fix it.
Gerald, my airplane is going on 6 years of age and no safety latches of any kind.
Upon checking the door pin penetrations, we found that the pilot side, forward pin was not going through the structure, but only captivated by the nylon guide. We fabbed a longer pin and saved the day. I also have red warning lights for the doors and baggage door, which I check closely and ensure that the doors are latched while I observe/instruct. Best of luck, |
Ntsb
Wrt the NTSB question: CFR part 830 says you need to report substantial damage, defined as a failure which affects ... , or performance, or ... and requires replacement of the part.
It's not perfectly clear to me, but I would say yes, report it. I have seen other reports of door failure with no other damage in the ntsb files. |
Really sorry to hear of your trauma - must have been pretty scary.....
I have followed with interest the saga of the doors, especially as mine seem to be taking more time to "fettle" than the entire rest of the aircraft! A couple of thoughts: - a properly latched door cannot come undone - the problem comes with a pin outside the skin - the magnetic prox sensors will pick this up - I think overly extending the pins is counter-productive. It is important to ensure that the pins fully retract into the door so that they cannot catch on the frame when you try and close the door. A pin that is 1.5" into the frame does nothing more than a pin that is 0.5" into the frame. The crucial thing is to get the pin into the frame. |
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I am just about to fit the VANS warning kit. I am wiring it up to my Skyview rather than the supplied relays and warning lights.
The system uses steel billets bonded into the ends of the pins. With the door closed, you adjust the magnetic sensor closer until it just activates. There are sensors on the fore and aft pins in series so both need to be made to indicate safe. If the pin is not extended or outside the frame, then it will be too far from the magnetic sensor to activate it. To me it seems pretty foolproof. So much so that the UK authorities have not mandated the extra door lock SB. It also strikes me that the stock door seal would make it difficult to detect a partially closed door. The automotive style bulb seal fitted to the frame should show a clearly visible gap with a pin outside the frame. |
My post is not intended to be critical of the OP, but there has to been something wrong with the planearound 180 kit installed from the door to come off. If the planearound kit is installed properly, it isn't apparent to me how the door could have come off. One of the pins had to be outside the cabin cover.
The 180 kit would have extended door pins longer than plan. If they were in their holes properly it would take some really significant flexing to pull the pins out. I'm not sure it's possible, unless somebody didn't fully close the door. This is going to get the attention of a lot of folks to understand what actually happened. To the OP, give Jay Pratt a call at rvcentral. If he doesn't want to do the work, I'm sure he can recommend somebody that will. |
I think it's important to find out what caused this incident. I would suggest that the OP post some photos of the door latch mechanism in the engaged position, and examine the engagement length of the pins. If there is any way to reattach the door and verify pin angagement in the frame, that also would be useful information. I can see how lack of engagement of the rear pin could allow the door to open and slide rearward, thus allowing the forward pin to also disengage. I too find it hard to imagine how, with the plane around latch, the door was not totally engaged. Is it possible the aftermarket "bullet" pins unscrewed from the tubing?
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2nd on Jay Pratt.
He has fixed a few of the doors. He might be North bound to Badlands flyin though. On site. RV central |
I'm not Jay, but I spoke to him last night. Correct, he's hooking them up to the Badlands event in SD at the end of this coming week.
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I think I met the OP at Walt's a few months back you were having one of your radio's looked at. I took interest in your door latch install because I had planned to do the same, I believe I have pictures of your install if you need them.
I wish I could have gotten inside to test the door but ya'll were engrossed with the radio issues. The install appeared to be correct from the short time I spent looking at it. If I remember your story of why you added the 180 kit, is because you had latched your door and the rear pin didn't engage and the door opened on rollout. I wonder if you have a problem with the door being undersized? Or is it possible that you overlooked checking if the rear pin engaged on this departure? During my preflight check one of my check list items are to physically touch all four comers of the doors. I'm not a builder but anything I can do to help just let me know. Tim |
So sorry to hear of your incident. It must have really gotten your attention. Hope I never experience something like that.
On our RV-10 with the 180 kit , if the door is closed enough for the center latch to catch, it pulls in the door in before the pins pass thru the holes (as per the instructions). Once the center latch catches, you would have to push out on the back of the door in order for the pin to go outside the skin. If something were to fall and get in between the door and it's sil, it could push it out. So you have to check the lights every time. I'm wandering if the latch system was installed correctly. The new owner might not know (OP) how they are intended to work. No disrespect to either the builder or the new owner. When we sold our RV-10, I made sure to go over the door latching system and explain in detail how they were constructed and how they work. What to look for , what to check and a stern warning on what would result if care is not taken to ensure everything is not in order. We have the indicating light on the Skyview also. With the doors working as "perfect" in my description, I still would make sure I closed the passenger side door unless it was one of the build partners sitting there or the new owner after thorough instruction. We had 19 hrs of flying the RV to it's new home and the new owner had to learn the operation of the doors along with every thing else. |
I agree with those who have said a properly installed planearound kit will not disengage if the pins are seated. Is there more going on with this door, and pehaps its mate? It seems strange to me that the outer skin would delaminate from the hinge down to the lower window level, unless it was improperly bonded to the inner shell. And by extension, are the door halves below the window inadequately bonded? Others have reported difficulty getting the lower door skins bonded due to inadequate resin in the mat( I forget the name of that stuff).
Jim Berry RV-10 |
I'll go a little farther. On my latch install, I deliberately tested with one pin outside the structure (tests for both fore and aft pin mis-engaged). I could close the latching mechanism but it took deliberate force to keep the door twisted out of line. With the door out of line, it was not possible by main strength to move the door toward the dis-engaged pin - it simply would not budge more than a 1/4" forward/aft. I could pull the unlatched side away from the fuselage only about an inch or so; I think I could see having the forward side open causing enough oscillation that a door separates but the other side might stay with you. On the other hand, if the pin is holding the front side of the door open, it seems there should be enough air coming in to notice even at run-up (I should say that I don't have an engine yet, so this is speculation). My pins fully protrude into the aluminum structure but even if they didn't, if the nylon guides are still on the fuselage I don't see how this could have happened as described. Since I am speculating, I apologize in advance if I have overlooked something.
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My thoughts and from 850 hours on type.
1. Build the door stiffer, ours can't be flexed that much, not with the length of our pins and the ALUMINIUM blocks (not nylon). We fitted Hendricks door systems and that may have made them more rigid? 2. Fit the sensors so that they are in series and only just close contacts when the door is fully latched. 3. Close the PAX door on every flight yourself, no matter who is in the RHS. No exceptions. Do not accept anything less. |
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I also push against each door's front and rear as a double-check before departure. Best, |
David, if you have a build/pilot partner and when you are the passenger he is the pilot. He closes all doors and you trust him to close all doors, why not trust him to close his passenger door when you are the pilot. If you say liability, he assumes half the liability whether or not he is flying. Other than third party liability, ie. the door falls on someone.
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I actually used micro switches at the end of the pins. I found the magnets were not accurate enough to assure that the pin was always fully engaged. In our installation, the pin must touch the micro switch to close the connection. All the switches are in series and report to a red annunciator light on the panel, and also an analog input on the EFIS. The only thing I would do differently would be to separate the left and right door annunciation.
I am also thinking that the doors halves may have not had good adhesion, which allowed a lot of flex. My pre-flight always includes inspection of the door latch and pins and their operation with the door in the open position. My checklist includes two separate entries to check the door latches. I always touch all four points of engagement and check the latch. I never let the passenger latch the door. |
Handle on aft end of door
I added a handle to the aft end of the door, so when ya close it you can pull it in tight against the frame fwd and aft when you are locking it. It's a two hand operation, but it makes for a very positive closure.
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RV10 Door
I will have Troy call Gerald this morning. We can help.
We replaced a lost door on a RV10 last year. We had Vans send us parts and we took them to the plane. We installed the door in the usual manner. With the door attached but NOT operational, we ferried it over to RV Central. Then we finished it up and made it paintable. While it was here. We installed some after market door handels, installed an aircontitioner and the Safety magnets in the door latch holes. The door was lost on that one. We might be able to repair Gerald's door since he still has it. |
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On my door (180 kit) there is no possible way for one pin to be engaged without the other and no way the door will come off unless it is not closed and latched. You state both pins were fully engaged so it leads me to believe the delamination of the door skins caused the door to fold in the middle and pull the pins out. On a 180 door kit you should have about 1-1/2 of pin extension in each guide. The cam only needs 30 degrees of rotation to fully engage so less than 1/2" of retraction in the door. 180 degrees equals around 2 inches of lateral pin movement. 1-1/2 inches of distance is a lot on each pin side to pull out of the guides. I wish I could see this door before and after. |
That was my initial thought as well. That maybe the door skin itself was defective. The epoxy of the inner skin with outer skin may have failed somehow. We won't know until someone knowledgeable can examine the door and give a thorough analysis.
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Order a new door from Van.
You can do it. In fact, you will be the perfect person for building a perfect door. Don't make a claim, and don't bother the sky cops (unless you declared an emergency). It's all part of life.... |
photo of door
Here is 2 photos I took of door, pins were fully extended when picked up door on runway so still think back pin not secured. Hope these links work, first time to play with photobucket.
http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/...psb57cc197.jpg http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9294f691.jpg Thanks Gerald |
Do you have a picture of the center cam? Is it in the locked position, with the pins extended?
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Gerald,
In your first picture it appears that the door separated cleanly between the inner and outer door panels. IMHO that suggests improper fiberglass technique during construction. Please take a close look at the other door to make certain it does not suffer from the same defect. Probably should extend that to having someone knowledgeable inspect all of the fiberglass. Jim Berry RV-10 |
It also appears that the door pins do not have much extension. It's hard to tell from the photos. If you could measure the extension it would be informative. I agree will Jim, you, or someone familiar with the process and with experience with FG, need to take a close look at the other door for delamination. It does appear that the inner and outer panel bonds failed. I also find it amazing how cleanly the window l delaminated from the frame. When I created my test panels at the time of each window installation, using the test panel, I could not separate the window from the FG without breaking the window material or fg it was attached to.
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I would internally build up that area between the top aft window corner and the edge of the door right where they put that dark strip of carbon fiber and consider a pass through bolt and countersunk washer right there to help secure the door half shells.
I'm not flying yet, but I've finished my doors but I am considering some binding reinforcement at those upper door crowns. |
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I was not adressing that situation very specifically, but that is exactly my situation. When Chris and I fly together we trust each other to close our respective doors. The person getting in the LHS also checks the baggage door, mind you the baggage door is not an issue...I have tested that. Anyone else, including my wife, I shut the door. Now the issue for us is not that we think it will not close properly, because we can't close it with a pin out, but we want it to be done with minimum stress, and when I strap in and turn the electrics on I do not want to find something is not done right. If it is hot weather, I will taxi holding my door ajar, but the EMS will let me know if I do not fully close the door, i.e. the pins are in but not fully extended. This is the risk with a passenger too, both pins in but only partially shut. I am not sure how you would do that but I think the possibility exists. The sensors will tell you. |
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Jim Berry RV-10 |
I have dealt with a fair number of doors coming open in flight, one if which hit the tail. A big part of the issue is getting the door to stay closed in the first place, but there are a number of ways that it can come open. Any single knob rotation system can fail. I have seen doors come open from the rear pin not being engaged. I have seen them come open from the roll pin not fully seating in its slot which would keep the handle from rotating. I have had my knee/leg push against the button on the handle which released this pin and the pressures on the door caused the handle to turn and the door to open.
All this to say, I think it is imperative to have a backup mechanism to either keep the door from coming open, or to keep it from coming off if the primary latch fails. I use a strap from the main gear leg weldment bar by the outboard heel of pilot/copilot that hooks around the door handle. It allows the door to be left open during taxi for airflow in the cabin and keeps the door from coming off if it comes open. |
I looked at an RV-10 on 9-2 which previously had the pilot door blow off on take off when the passenger opened the air vent. It had been repaired when I looked at it. To me, it appeared the door flexed and the pins slid out and tore the nylon guides. The repair included longer pins, but I do not know if the door was stiffened.
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Doors are not complicated - Aeronca, Beechcraft, Cessna, Commander, (insert alphabetized list here), and a host of others have solved the problem of doors being being ripped off the aircraft.
Either the factory or an aftermarket supplier needs to design a front hinged door for the RV-10. Depending on a series of latches, lights, and procedures to keep something as simple as a door attached is dumb. Engineer the problem away so that when a door does pop open, it'll stay mostly closed and completely attached. |
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I am not saying that it couldn't happen as a result of how a particular installation was built (pins not properly installed... so that the ramped portion is the only thing engaging fuselage, which would cause them to push in the retracted direction if not restrained). I have tested it in flight myself. A properly installed door will not open on its own just because the latch button is pressed. |
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