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-   -   How do get these "SUCKERS" to slow down fast? (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=10195)

RV9798 08-18-2006 10:03 PM

How do get these "SUCKERS" to slow down fast?
 
I have 3 hrs on the plane right now. What stall? Its does not want to quit flying. Came in too high for landing, so I went around. (My previous plane was a 172...slow down is easy).With this plane I have to prep for landing way in advance. How about "Side/forward slip". is this acceptable in an RV9 to slow her down fast? What other techniques could you recommend to slow this (nice) sucker down.

Pete :D (Still hurting from the cramp on my face)

Leland 08-18-2006 10:19 PM

Re: How do get these "SUCKERS" to slow down fast?
 
Pete, I routinely do an approach with full flaps and a side slip. It helps a lot to turn the idle screw so that the engine idles at 600 rpm or less on the ground. Some planes need a little power to round out, but not the 9. A constant speed prop would really take care of slowing down. Don't get it too slow as a cross-controll stall can turn the plane upside down. On short final I hold 60 knots when slipping and still have plenty of elevator authority.
Leland
RV9A
110 hours

fodrv7 08-19-2006 12:33 AM

Side Slip
 
Pete,
I offer the following opinion from the perspective of an ex-CFI; which I mention just so you know the qualification from which is given.

Leyland is correct, side-slipping is a good way to steepen an approach and I personally do side slip my RV-7 with full flap, and it behaves well, but a few points are worth noting.

Side slipping means the fuselage will be blanking airflow from one wing and you will have crossed controls with rudder one way and aileron the other. This is a recipe for a spin if you get to slow. Actually more like a flick roll.

The ASI is also likely to misread as the pitot is flying sideways and the static ports may no longer be feeding the true static pressure to the airspeed. Mine over reads!!!!!!!!!

Before you attempt any side slipping in the circuit it would be wise to try it at altitude (above 3000') and in particular try maintaining the side slip, whilst reducing speed to get a feel for the behaviour of the aircraft and to note any abrupt changes in ASI as you apply the side slip.

If you are going to reduce speed to near the stall, you should be current and competent at incipient spin recovery, because if you do stall with crossed controls, an abrupt wing drop is almost certain and you are likely to end up inverted before you can recover from the stall.

It should be noted that many aircraft can behave rather unexpectedly when flying near the edge of the envelope.
The Cessna 150 is very docile, but once in a blue moon during a steep turn they will flip out of the turn (not the direction I would have expected) to completely inverted. I only saw it happen once in 1800hr of instructing, but it rather did get my attention- particularly as it is not an aerobatic aircraft.

Approach side-slipping with caution near the ground.

Pete.

n468ac 08-19-2006 01:19 AM

BE VERY CAREFUL ...

After hearing about the base to final stall crash at OSH this year i've gone up in our 6A and tried a base to final cross controled stall. At best i've recovered within 900 feet! Basicly on final you are dead!

I plane snap rolls inverted and noses down 90 degs ... pulling back as hard as you can still takes 900 feet to recover. I'm sure if it happens on final and your not prepared you will drive nose first into the ground.

pierre smith 08-19-2006 05:40 AM

Welcome
 
Hi Pete,
Welcome to the world of high performance airplanes. You can't slow them down fast. It just takes a little planning ahead on your part. If you come barrelling into the pattern at 180 MPH, you're gonna have a longer downwind. Try to enter the pattern around 135-140 MPH gradually reducing RPM (to avoid thermal shock to the cylinders). Even though flap speed in my 6A is 100 MPH, you can use half at higher speeds like 130 MPH, to help slow it down quicker. These airplanes are just slippery but you'll figure it out.

I second the suggestion to go up and practice a few cross-controlled stalls. It'll be an eye-opener!
Regards,

L.Adamson 08-19-2006 06:30 AM

How do you slow down?

A C/S prop! :D

I've flown the 9A with a Hartzell C/S, and it could easily make some steep approaches and short landing rolls with the C/S.

It's been the same with the RV6's. Either a long planned slowing descent with a fixed blade, or the braking action of a constant speed.

Mel 08-19-2006 06:34 AM

Pierre,
Be carefull out there. Unless something has changed lately, I believe that Van says 110 mph is max for 1/2 flap extension.
BTW, the RV will be much easier to slow down with experience. It's a combination of pitch and throttle reduction, but it takes practice. After a hundred hours or so you will be able to slow down much faster than seems possible now.

bsacks05 08-19-2006 10:10 AM

I had the same problem with my -9 until I worked out pattern speeds and RPM's that work for me. Here's what I do: 1) Plan on getting to pattern alt. before entering and throttle to 1500, carb heat if needed 2) Trim for 100mph and 1500RPM on downwind, 3) abeam the numbers, reduce to 1100 rpm, maintain alt until flap safe speed then put in 1/2 flaps, trim for 85 mph and turn base 4) continue onto final at 80-85mph, flaps if neccessary. 5) sink rate really increases below 70mph so I keep a little throttle in and idle just before the threshold as speed drops to 65-70.
This is what works for me and my landings have been fairly consistent.
O320, fixed pitch, etc...

And I just want to say good luck, we're all counting on you....

Bryan Wood 08-19-2006 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel
Pierre,
Be carefull out there. Unless something has changed lately, I believe that Van says 110 mph is max for 1/2 flap extension.


Mel, Unless the numbers have been bumped up for the 9/9A the flap extension speed is quite a bit lower. I'm having a brain lapse right now, but I think Van bumped it up for the 9's by 10 mph over the markings on the airspeed indicator for "Partial Flaps" only. Not certain without looking at the airspeed indicator, but I'm pretty sure 80mph for full flaps, and 90mph for partial. There have were posts on the old 9 groups about damage to a 9 that put them down faster. Anybody remember any details? It seems like the aerobatic versions have some other advantages besides just a higher g rating. Like they say, it's all a trade off.

Best,

Mel 08-19-2006 12:11 PM

That's true about the -9 being lower speeds. Pierre flys a -6A, and I believe the -6A is 110 mph for 1/2 flaps. Typically 1/2 flap speeds are 10 mph above full flap speeds on RVs.

David-aviator 08-19-2006 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV9798
I have 3 hrs on the plane right now. What stall? Its does not want to quit flying. Came in too high for landing, so I went around. (My previous plane was a 172...slow down is easy).With this plane I have to prep for landing way in advance. How about "Side/forward slip". is this acceptable in an RV9 to slow her down fast? What other techniques could you recommend to slow this (nice) sucker down.

Pete :D (Still hurting from the cramp on my face)

Pete, sounds like you are having a ton of fun, which is what this is all about.

Try slowing up sooner than on base or final, like get some flaps out on the down wind leg. The 9 is not that much more slippery than a 7. My technique is slow to 80 knots on down wind, set 10 degrees of flaps, turn base descending all the way to final and the runway at 70-75 knots. With a little practise, you can make a smooth 180 degree turn from down wind to the runway, not varying airspeed more than 5 knots and be in the visual slot the whole way. Make a bigger pattern until you get used to it. With a FP prop, these machines are not unlike a slick jet where the word is, "you can't go down and slow down at the same time". :)

If possible, fly the airplane without slipping it. Slipping is a valid technique on airplanes with no flaps, but with a little planning, should not be necessary with a RV. These things do a nasty, nasty snap roll.

dd

Russ McCutcheon 08-20-2006 06:53 AM

"you can't go down and slow down at the same time".

This is perfict! And to add to this, using flaps to slow down is a very sloppy tecneek, flaps are not there to slow you down but rather to alow you to make a steeper approach once your already slowed. To slow an RV be at patern altitude by 5 to 7 miles out from your destination and begin reducing power and maintaining altitude so when your across from the numbers you are at or very near your pattern speed then apply flaps in two steps, turn to the runway and land. This is the proper method and there is no great shourt cut, I have reduced power late and sliped befor entering the pattern trying to get the speed down in time to deploy flaps across from the numbers, this can help but nothing is a good substitutes for advanced planning and proper tecneek.

rv9builder 08-20-2006 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fodrv7

Side slipping means the fuselage will be blanking airflow from one wing and you will have crossed controls with rudder one way and aileron the other. This is a recipe for a spin if you get to slow. Actually more like a flick roll.

The ASI is also likely to misread as the pitot is flying sideways and the static ports may no longer be feeding the true static pressure to the airspeed. Mine over reads!!!!!!!!!

As a general rule, how much above stall speed should you be to safely do a side slip?

N941WR 08-20-2006 09:37 AM

Full flap speed on the -9 is 90 mph. I'm not sure if there is a 1/2 flap speed or not.

dan 08-20-2006 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ McCutcheon
To slow an RV be at patern altitude by 5 to 7 miles out from your destination and begin reducing power and maintaining altitude so when your across from the numbers you are at or very near your pattern speed...

Or just do an overhead.

captainron 08-20-2006 10:41 AM

Okay, I guess it's time for a little pattern review. But first, a question:
Why do a lot of engine failures occur at the first power reduction after takeoff?
When you're on the takeoff roll, you (hopefully) roll the throttle in smoothly, taking about two seconds from idle to full power. You are climbing out at full power, low airspeed, highest torsional load on the engine, all of which it's designed to take. About 30" of M/P and whatever RPM the engine will muster. Then, at some point you grab the throttle and pull it back to 25" and the prop back to 2500 RPM. All because at some point in your training some instructor (who you may now realise had a lot less experience than you probably do now!) told you to do it this way. Most of you would never be in cruise and just yank the throttle back 5" of M/P. Why do it at a critical point low to the ground while leaving the runway behind you?
Flying a good pattern requires some thinking and planning for the conditions that are present. If entering a downwind leg from a 45 degree angle, you should have decended to pattern altitude during this transition. Power reductions should be made gradually, 1-2" at a time with some time in between to normalize temperatures.
You are now on the downwind leg, which means your groundspeeds will be high, assuming wind is present. If you know from ATIS or such that there is significant wind, you need to start slowing earlier. When opposite the numbers, you should be configured to be able to make your final power reduction, and trim for a slightly nose-low attitude. If your airspeed is still high, you can relax knowing that nothing will scrub off airspeed faster than the high bank-angle turn that is coming when you turn base. You remember from doing turns around a point, and "S" turns across a road that the highest bank turns are downwind turns. While you are in this turn, keep the pitch attitude the same constant slightly nose low attitude as before the turn.
While in the turn, you will probably notice that your airspeed has decayed into the flap operating range. Just dump all the flaps at once while in the turn.
Also, lets talk about how much turn you're making here. Assuming the wind is down the runway, you will not be making a left 90 degree heading change, but maybe 100 or 110 degree change to put in enough crab so as not to drift away from the runway. On the next base-final turn, this is now an upwind turn, so it will be a shallower bank turn. Which is good when you're low to the ground and slow! How many times have you been with someone where they will make two sloppy turns from base to final? This happens when you plan both turns at the same angle of bank. It just doesn't work!
You have basically made your last power setting on downwind, trimmed once, operated the flaps once, and can pretty much enjoy the rest of the ride to the threshold at which point you will have to work again.
You can save the power, trim, 1/3 flaps, trim, power, trim, 2/3 flaps, trim, power, trim, full flaps, trim, power, trim, nonsense for when your wife or girlfriend is riding with you.

JACKR 08-20-2006 10:46 AM

[quote=Russ McCutcheon]"
To slow an RV be at patern altitude by 5 to 7 miles out from your destination and begin reducing power and maintaining altitude so when your across from the numbers.......... :eek:

Have you ever lost an engine? :) 800 agl 7 out (just to reduce speed) is not a good idea. Nothing wrong with slowing down 5 to 7 out, but you don't have to loose alt. to do that. jmho

RV9798 08-20-2006 11:44 AM

Paradigm shift and shock cooling
 
Thanks for all your help. As of yesterday I have acculated 11 hours on the plane. From all your advice I concluded that I have to unlearn the 172 mentality and shift into the RV Paradigm. Fly in front of the plane instead of behind it. I think I am still behind it ( just a bit). Plannnig way ahead and patience. I was doing 130KIAS on downwind.....well :o things happen so fast , the speed just run away from me. Now it is a 100KIAS, but I will even slow it to 90KIAS. So far it has been a blast flying the 9 eventhough nailing a precise altitude is still a chore (+/- 500 ft :o ). Its getting better though. Because of this all, the next problem is not to induce "Shock Cooling". If you have been on high cruise for sometime, and you need to decent rapidly, how rapid can you pull the throtle back to avoid shock cooling....specially if ATC ask you to expedite decent? What is the proper technik? Cracked cylinders, my wallett and my health are closely related to avoiding schock cooling, ah? "Ah" is a Canadian.....


Pete (A grin a day will keep the doctor away..)

David-aviator 08-20-2006 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV9798
Thanks for all your help. As of yesterday I have acculated 11 hours on the plane......Pete (A grin a day will keep the doctor away..)

What a great attitude! It used to be an apple a day but an RV grin will work for sure.

I don't think you can shock cool an 0320, Pete, unless it's 20 below, which it sometimes is in your neck of the woods. Recently, it's been so darn warm I wonder if it will ever snow again. On a recent cross country at 10.5, it was +30F over standard. The density altitude was like over 13,000'.

In any event, shock cooling is a concern with some high performance, boost augmented, six cylinder engines. Not quite so with normal aspirated 0320's and 0360's. It is not as big a deal as with more complex engines.

If you want to play the game, reduce the throttle about half way as you start down, watch the CHT drop a bit and stabilize and then bring it all off if necessary. If ATC says go down fast, say yes sir, and go down as quickly and SAFELY as possible. You're flying the airplane, not the guy on the ground.

Sounds like you're making some adjustments in the traffic pattern. Good show! You'll be an ace RVer in no time :)

dd

Bob Brown 08-20-2006 02:25 PM

Checkout ?
 
Hi Pete,
Having just transitioned from high wing cessna's to RV's, my best advice is to set up an appointment with Mike Seager and let him show you the tricks of the trade with RV's. I think 11,000 hrs of instructing time gives him fairly good insight into what will make your plane purr for you. I too had the same issues on my first flights with him, but all were overcome quickly. It made a huge difference in my ability to "do the right things" and not wonder if I was doing them right. Mike will let you make the mistakes and is an expert at giving you the right hints so you can land em slow, fast, short, long, or any other way you want to. I highly recommend getting a checkout with him or another RV expert.

Bryan Wood 08-20-2006 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan Wood
I'm having a brain lapse right now, but I think Van bumped it up for the 9's by 10 mph over the markings on the airspeed indicator for "Partial Flaps" only. Not certain without looking at the airspeed indicator, but I'm pretty sure 80mph for full flaps, and 90mph for partial.


Yeap, the brain lapse was exactly that. The speeds for the 9/9A are 90mph for full flaps, or 100mph for partial. As soon as I sat in the plane yesterday to go for a ride and saw the airspeed indicator, well DOH!

A technique that is used frequently in retracts to slow down is to come in below the pattern altitude if the terrain permits and climb as the power is coming off to slow down.( The gear would also be coming down during this) On the 45 turn to down wind along with a climb of 150' or so after powering back does a lot to help slow down.


Cheers,

gmcjetpilot 08-20-2006 10:58 PM

Can't Go Down and Slow Down
 
Reading all the previous sounds like good advice. As far as slips that should not be needed for normal approach and landings. As long as you have a safe flying speed, V "ref" or Vs1 (clean) + 30% you are OK, you'll not stall in a full slip. Let's say 78 mph Of course you stall in a full forward slip you will snap roll. However you are better off slowing down and getting full flaps out.
-Plan ahead, as you're doing (no more then Vfe at mid field at pattern altitude)
-Once you are descending it is hard to slow down and go down clean.
-Don't start decent from pattern altitude until you have at about 1/2 or more flaps.
-Don't descend until you have some flaps out
-Again extend flaps, partial or full, before leaving pattern altitude
-Again once descending it is hard to slow clean, level flight not so hard.
-Get some training is good and or practice slow flight and flying at Vfe.
-Too fast on down wind? consider a shallow *climb* to get to Vfe, extend flaps, go back to pattern altitude.
It does not take much *climb* to bleed speed at or near idle; sometimes it's hard to bleed that last 10 mph to get to flap extension, so a little back pressure is needed. I am not talking about a large change in altitude, only 50 feet, but traffic and airspace conditions rules. Once you get the flaps out lower nose and get back to pattern.

I suppose you could slip in level flight on the "45" or downwind to bleed speed, as an alternate to a slight climb as I suggested. Slips are not real comfortable for passengers and should not be a normal procedure with proper planning. With proper planning you should not need to do either.

The trick is know what the RPM or manifold pressure is (if so equipped) to give you Vfe in level flight. Set that power before entering the pattern so have time to slow to Vfe or less by the abeam point. Also figure out how many miles it takes to slow from cruise to Vfe by pulling power back in level flight. It may take a few miles! So plan ahead. Any descent, all bets are off on slowing down. You need to slow first, get the flaps out second and than descend. Again the slight climb is a good trick, I use it on occasion. I would rather climb slightly than slip or bring flaps out above their limit speed.

Once you have the flaps out and leaving power alone, you will slow further towards approach speed. Once you leave pattern altitude (base/final) add more flaps as needed to maintain speed and continue to slow. If you find you are a little high and fast you can slip, but if is screwed up go around and try again. Plan on being on final, on speed in position to land by 200 feet above touch down.

N941WR 08-21-2006 06:05 AM

When landing, just remember:

Pitch for speed
Power for placement (distance)

It does sound like you are having fun. So... Do you miss building? ;)

dan 08-21-2006 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot
It does not take much *climb* to bleed speed at or near idle; sometimes it's hard to bleed that last 10 mph to get to flap extension, so a little back pressure is needed. I am not talking about a large change in altitude, only 50 feet, but traffic and airspace conditions rules. Once you get the flaps out lower nose and get back to pattern.

Not disagreeing, but at the risk of repeating myself... or just do an overhead. You don't need to be in formation to do an overhead approach. Come in at cruise airspeed, and you can still easily be at flap speed when you hit downwind.

RV9798 08-21-2006 10:07 AM

Building????
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR
When landing, just remember:

Pitch for speed
Power for placement (distance)

It does sound like you are having fun. So... Do you miss building? ;)


Well it's strange not being in the garage and dreaming about flying. But.....I still have to finish the interior....put the nose pants on.....learn new things about flying, Learn about leaning and using the EIS effectively ect. This is definitively cool... but I might help 3 other builders in the area doing RV's as soon as I am get the craving of pounding rivets...

Well.....got to go and fly my plane

Pete

akarmy 08-21-2006 11:21 AM

Just to add my 2 bits...

First, if you haven't flown a 9, then you really should before saying they are just like the rest of the RV's. I did transition training with Seager in the 6A with CS prop... patterns and approach are nothing like my FP 9A...

So for me I fly 120-110 mph 45 and onto downwind. Pull to idle abeam the numbers, hold altitude until the speed bleeds to 100, drop half flaps, turn base once you have 500fpm descent established. Drop the rest of the flaps on base. Target 70mph, turn final, slow to 60-65 over the numbers. Works every time... All these speeds are in MPH.

That's just how I do it. There are other ways....

David-aviator 08-21-2006 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan
Not disagreeing, but at the risk of repeating myself... or just do an overhead. You don't need to be in formation to do an overhead approach. Come in at cruise airspeed, and you can still easily be at flap speed when you hit downwind.

Otherwise known as "rolling your socks down". Two or three G's will bleed off a lot of airspeed quick.

The first time I heard the term "roll your socks down" was in a previous life at age 21, doing some day fighter stuff as part of a F-86L training curriculum. The instructor would be riding high on the perch as his students rolled in on the target and made a simulated pass with simulated guns blazing away. If you did it right, he would call out on the radio, "now that's how to roll your socks down, good job". Those were fun days.

We have a couple old geazer ex fighter pilots around here who still fly their RV's like that. Going out for the proverbial $100 hamberger a while back, I looked out on the wing and there was Bill, flying inverted. He stayed that way about a minute until his eye balls were distended and roll right side up again. And he also was falling behind, the RV-4 doesn't go as fast inverted as right side up.

These machines are fun to fly. :)

dd

DeltaRomeo 08-21-2006 11:57 AM

I'm w/Dan on this completely. Solo (or in formation) I (we) arrive for the overhead approach every time. Nothing...not even a C/S prop....slows down the RV faster than a 2-3g 180 turn. Standard safety disclaimers apply....

b,
d

jrsites 08-21-2006 12:04 PM

I happen to agree with Dan. I think the overhead is the safest approach there is, especially in airplanes like the RVs, which have a pretty high power-off sink rate (well, not the -9 or -9A, which I understand this thread was originally regarding).

Seems to me that being over the numbers, at pattern altitude, at cruise speed is the safest scenario for making a safe landing after losing an engine. Certainly much safer than losing an engine halfway through a downwind leg that is being flown a mile out from the runway.

Plus, they're just plain fun to do. Nailing a perfectly executed overhead approach is one of those rare aviation moments that brings a silly grin to your face. For now, my only opportunity to do them is in a 172, but even that's enjoyable. I still pratice them. It's a shame that they're not taught as part of the PPL curricululm.

N916K 08-21-2006 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaRomeo
Solo (or in formation) I (we) arrive for the overhead approach every time.


What is the proper (if there is one) way to call an overhead approach, at both an uncontrolled and a control airport?

RVbySDI 08-21-2006 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrsites
Plus, they're just plain fun to do. Nailing a perfectly executed overhead approach is one of those rare aviation moments that brings a silly grin to your face. For now, my only opportunity to do them is in a 172, but even that's enjoyable. I still pratice them. It's a shame that they're not taught as part of the PPL curricululm.

Ok, I am going to be the first to ask here I guess. Can someone describe what you are referring to when you say "an overhead"? I must be one of those that was never taught this as par of their PPL curriculum.

DeltaRomeo 08-21-2006 12:12 PM

(uncontrolled)
"Northwest Regional traffic Experimental 617 Alpha Romeo one thousand seven hundred feet on a 2 mile intial for the overhead break. Left pitchout one seven full stop rolling to the end."

(controlled)
"Experimental 617 Alpha Romeo flight of 4 requesting the overhead approach for one seven"

...or something to that effect.

b,
d

Mike Miller 08-21-2006 12:33 PM

Overhead Approach?
 
I'm a little green here. Can somebody explain an overhead approach and how to properly fly one? I did not learn this maneuver in my PP training.

Brian130 08-21-2006 12:45 PM

It's an oval pattern over the runway. It's preferred by faster aircraft (RVs count :D ) because it allows you to arrive over the airfield at near cruise speed and use the Gs in the first (break) turn to decelerate to configuration speed. Without the G, low drag aircraft do not want to slow down - necessitating a long slow final.

You might have seen, if you're ever near a fighter or trainer base, 2+ aircraft approach the airfield in formation and then lead turns sharply, wing waits a few seconds and then follows. That's the overhead. Heavies do them too, but much less frequently - and ours are less impressive. (I'd rather cross midfield perpendicular at 500'A and roll to downwind, anyway. :D )

The leg that is on top of final is called initial, the first turn to downwind is called the break turn, the turn to final is called the "perch" if it's AF or the "180" if it's Navy.

How to fly it...

1) Keep in mind that it's non-standard so most civilian fields won't expect it and might not understand what you're doing if you aren't clear on unicom.

2) Fly up initial at cruise speed. How fast you can make this leg depends on how agressive your break turn is, how long your downwind will be, etc.

3) Break at generally 45-60 degrees of bank, level turn, power at idle. If you pick your speed correctly on initial, you can break over or before the approach end and never touch the power again.

4) Roll out on downwind and configure.

5) At a normal base point (45 degrees off your shoulder) make a continuous turn to final and plan to roll out on final at approach speed and on glideslope, ~1/2 - 3/4 mile final.

captainron 08-21-2006 02:05 PM

I often do this arrival with our T-28, as with these old engines, combined with an eye-popping engine-out sink rate, it is the safest approach. Plus, it's fun, military, and just cool! Talk to your home field tower controllers, and explain the approach to them, if they don't already know it. Better yet, offer a ride to demonstrate!

BrickPilot 08-21-2006 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaRomeo
(uncontrolled)
"Northwest Regional traffic Experimental 617 Alpha Romeo one thousand seven hundred feet on a 2 mile intial for the overhead break. Left pitchout one seven full stop rolling to the end."

(controlled)
"Experimental 617 Alpha Romeo flight of 4 requesting the overhead approach for one seven"

...or something to that effect.

b,
d

For those non-civilian pilots (like me), to promote situational awareness for those near the airport unfamiliar with the overhead terminology, we could use the above template but replace "overhead break" and "overhead approach" with "upwind entry"; also, replace "Left pitchout" with "Left traffic". This should help to make things a bit easier for all parties.

dan 08-21-2006 02:41 PM

Somebody mentioned that the overhead is non-standard at civilian fields. Let's clarify that. Many civilian PILOTS are not familiar with the overhead. As somebody else mentioned, he wasn't trained on this...I wasn't either.

Tower controllers, on the other hand, should be well familiar with the overhead. Allow me to expand on how it works at towered airports in the U.S. As Doug mentioned, the request is as simple as:

"Tower, RV 14D is requesting the overhead with information yadda."

Tower will usually respond with:

"RV 14D, report a X mile initial, pattern altitude XXXX, right turns."

The reporting point on initial (1 mile, 2 miles, 4 miles, what have you), the pattern altitude, and the direction of the pattern (right turns = right break, left turns = left break) will depend on other traffic at the airport and various local constraints.

Most of the time, you report initial:

"Tower, RV 14D is X mile initial"

and tower will respond with something like:

"RV 14D, break pilot's discretion, runway XX cleared to land."

-or-

"RV 14D, break over the departure end, traffic to follow is a Foo Bar on a 2-mile left base, #2, cleared to land."

-or-

"RV 14D, break over the numbers, traffic is a Spam Spammety 4 miles out on the ILS, #1 cleared to land."

Anyway, those are a few examples of the types of radio exchanges you can expect to have with your control tower. Give it a try...you might like it!

At an uncontrolled field, as others have mentioned, the potential conflict is that some pilots may be unaware of the meaning of what you're announcing on the radio. All you gotta do is explain.

vlittle 08-21-2006 07:56 PM

Hi Pete:

You've gotten lots of advice. The 9A does not fly like a 7A or a 6A, so you should not follow the specific advice based on those models.

I've got about 70 hrs on my 9A and sometimes I have trouble getting down/slowing down, especially with any kind of thermal activity over the airport.

The best think is to go practice. The runways in Victoria are enormous, so you won't have any trouble overshooting, I think. Try approach at 70 kts, over the fence at 65 kts. For short field landings subtract 5 kts from these numbers, and remember that below 60 kts the sink rate builds up rapidly.

One of the best maneuvers is the overshoot. If you are high/fast, go around... it's the sign of a good pilot.

I've done some not-so-advisable thing on final (pulling up to a stall to lose altitude), and S-turns at low altitude.

Since you are flying off your hours and breaking in an engine, you're probably
used to cruising around at 150+ knots, and entering the circuit at high speed. Try slowing down to flap speed before entering the circuit and putting out 10 degrees of flap until final. Then use the extra notches of flap to adjust your glide speed.

The 9A flys very well at slow speed, much better than the other models. Use this to your advantage in the circuit... pretend you are a 172 (speed wise) and you'll be in good shape.

Vern Little CYNJ

BrickPilot 08-21-2006 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan
... traffic is a Spam Spammety 4 miles out on the ILS ...

I just about blew milk out my nose reading that. :) That's me, Mr. Spam Spammety Skylane. :D

zspivey 08-22-2006 07:51 AM

360 Overhead pattern
 
It looks as if we have hijacked this thread. The overhead discussion is great. Although my RV-8 is still at the wings stage, the few minutes of stick time I have in friend's RV's have convinced me that the RV begs to be flown in an overhead pattern.

How about those of you who fly the overhead giving us some techniques. O.K. we fly initial at cruise speed. What bank angle do you use when you pitchout? What power setting? Where is the best point to start the break? Over the numbers or midfield? Where do you drop your flaps?

After I get my RV-8 in the air I will probably experiment at altitude before I try one in the pattern, still having some numbers to start will help the learning process.

Thanks


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