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-   -   Unofficial New Advanced Fight Systems Pricing (5/29/2013) (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=100274)

ColoRv 05-29-2013 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randle (Post 775097)
Misinterpret my intentions as you may, but I do hope to one day be able to add a navigator to mine. Apples to apples, if there was a hundred dollar bill sitting on the ground, I would pick it up. :rolleyes: trying to avoid the too-often thread drift that is known on this site.

Has anyone recently installed the 5500 series setup that could give a little RELATED input into ths thread for possibles such as myself?

Nobody misinterpreted you. Your assertion that anyone buying a g3x system would automatically feel compelled to buy an IFR navigator while buyers of other systems would not is seriously flawed at the best. Brantel was simply saying that in a nice way. The fact of the matter is the assertion that Garmin's updates are expensive while implying that others give equal data for free is an outright lie that frankly is getting old. All of Garmin's data is DO200A qualified, FAA and EASA audited. This is not the case with the free data to my knowledge...correct me if I am wrong. Garmin has safe taxi, flight charts and AOPA directory which is not even available elsewhere.

Truth be told, if I'm spending well north ten thousand dollars like these panels cost... limiting my future capability based on a hundred dollars seems incredibly short sighted. It costs more than that to fill my truck fuel tank and the 'free' data is neither equal nor guaranteed to remain free. If I later want to go IFR, having all of those things on the large screen rather than the smaller navigator will make my life easier.

Garmin is even cheaper now and make no mistake, when Garmin dropped their prices this year the rest had to follow suit. That's the only reason we are finally seeing a price break on these overpriced systems (all of them).

rattler 05-30-2013 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randle (Post 775097)
Misinterpret my intentions as you may, but I do hope to one day be able to add a navigator to mine. Apples to apples, if there was a hundred dollar bill sitting on the ground, I would pick it up. :rolleyes: trying to avoid the too-often thread drift that is known on this site.

Has anyone recently installed the 5500 series setup that could give a little RELATED input into ths thread for possibles such as myself?

Just to add some apples to apples on the initial outlay, have you looked at the cost of some features on the AFS that are included with ?Big G?

AOA: AFS $ 599.00 / Garmin $0.00 (Included on the new GSU-25)
VPX Interface: AFS $275.00 / Garmin $0.00
Moving Map: AFS $500.00 / Garmin $0.00

So by my apples to apples calculation if you want the AOA and Moving Map features Garmin just paid for 11 years of the VFR data updates for the G3X. If you are planning to use the VP-X system Garmin just paid for 2.75 more years of the VFR data updates. Plus I tend to agree with ColoRV that I am not convinced that the free updates are going to remain free.

Just a little more food for thought.

(Disclaimer I know these are list prices and the actual prices would be less.)

Randle 05-30-2013 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoRv (Post 775121)
The fact of the matter is the assertion that Garmin's updates are expensive while implying that others give equal data for free is an outright lie that frankly is getting old.

Actually no it?s not, it is 100% true at this current time. If you want Nav data, Terrain, and Obstacles (US only), you have to pay $99 a year for it from Garmin. If you utilize Dynon, GRT or AFS, there is no recurring cost for the downloads, ?IT?S FREE?. I hope that is easier to interpret.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoRv (Post 775121)
All of Garmin's data is DO200A qualified, FAA and EASA audited. This is not the case with the free data to my knowledge...correct me if I am wrong.

I have found absolutely nothing to support this claim, it is kind of funny to say that it is audited by the FAA when Garmins Flitecharts are just the FAA?s FREE Terminal Procedures Publications grouped together and sold as a package in their format to take advantage of geo-referenced overlay, but to be fair and equal, AFS does this as well at a cheaper price. The Airport Diagrams are also available free from the FAA to include Approach plates and procedures and can be found here

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoRv (Post 775121)
Garmin has safe taxi, flight charts and AOPA directory which is not even available elsewhere.

This is also another false claim, unless you want to be specific by name to their trademark licenses, almost all of it is available and can be found in the link previously provided for free, but if you want the Airport Directory from Garmin, it will cost you $50 an update or $195 for a yearly subscriptions on top of the ?$99? map data. If you have Advanced Flight for instance, they also offer this data without a recurring yearly cost. It includes the airport information with additional need to know items such as frequencies and services-at-airport information just like Garmin does.
Single download Airport Diagrams from Garmin- $50
Single download Airport Diagrams from Advanced- $25
Single download Airport Diagrams from FAA- FREE
Single download Geo-Referenced Approach Plates, IFR Charts, VFR Sectionals from Garmin- $75
Single download Geo-Referenced Approach Plates, IFR Charts, VFR Sectionals from Advanced- $50


Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoRv (Post 775121)
Truth be told, if I'm spending well north ten thousand dollars like these panels cost... limiting my future capability based on a hundred dollars seems incredibly short sighted. It costs more than that to fill my truck fuel tank and the 'free' data is neither equal nor guaranteed to remain free.

Nothing is guaranteed to remain free until the end of time, but the FAA has been distributing all of this information for Free download on the internet for years and is not only ?EQUAL? but is exactly what Garmin uses to build their Flitecharts they sell. Kahuna from Aerodynamix has been a huge advocate for GRT users in terms of making all of this free information available to other GRT users by doing almost all of the leg work on his own, then spelling out how to do it, making these forums invaluable in certain aspects to pilots trying to remain current in this ever more expensive hobby of ours, and for that I salute him and his dedication to this sport.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoRv (Post 775121)
Garmin is even cheaper now and make no mistake, when Garmin dropped their prices this year the rest had to follow suit. That's the only reason we are finally seeing a price break on these overpriced systems (all of them)

You will get no argument here from that statement. So to that I say, Thank you Garmin for coming in and driving down the prices on some of the avionics I have long dreamed about and can now afford, either Advanced Flight or GRT will soon be gaining my business due to their competitive reaction.

Randle 05-30-2013 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rattler (Post 775205)
Moving Map: AFS $500.00 / Garmin $0.00
(Disclaimer I know these are list prices and the actual prices would be less.)

How can you consider it free from Garmin when you are required to keep it up to date that will cost you at a minimum $99 a year?

Randle 05-30-2013 09:23 AM

It also saddens me to say that I have received more emails and PM's than posts in this thread regarding support and info about the AFS and GRT EFISs with the common end statement "hope this helps, I just dont want to get involved in the crossfire from the G3x Mafia"

Brantel 05-30-2013 09:28 AM

Guys keep it civil or this thread will disappear. Nothing wrong with good clean debate. This stuff just is not worth losing friends over. That's the problem with forum discussions, they always go South.

AllThumbs 05-30-2013 10:25 AM

Brian, I appreciate that you are always willing to provide help with any system you are familiar with - and that's most of them!

NavData costs $. If you fly in the system (IFR) that's part of the cost. It would be nice if AeroNav/FAA would open-source the stuff but I doubt that will happen. The raw data needs work before it goes to devices anyway.

I've seen data costs start to come down, even at Jepp (gasp). I suspect the cost of massaging data each release is similar for most players so, eventually, the charges will start to even out due to competition if there are enough users to be statistically meaningful.

I fly with GNS 530W/430W (Toga) and with a 400W in the RV-6. I just did an IPC in the -6! I'm also on the early adopter list for the IFD series so I'll be happy to report on those once I get my finger prints all over them. I don't know what data on those will cost yet either.

ColoRv 05-30-2013 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rattler (Post 775205)
Just to add some apples to apples on the initial outlay, have you looked at the cost of some features on the AFS that are included with “Big G”

AOA: AFS $ 599.00 / Garmin $0.00 (Included on the new GSU-25)
VPX Interface: AFS $275.00 / Garmin $0.00
Moving Map: AFS $500.00 / Garmin $0.00

So by my apples to apples calculation if you want the AOA and Moving Map features Garmin just paid for 11 years of the VFR data updates for the G3X. If you are planning to use the VP-X system Garmin just paid for 2.75 more years of the VFR data updates. Plus I tend to agree with ColoRV that I am not convinced that the free updates are going to remain free.

Just a little more food for thought.

(Disclaimer I know these are list prices and the actual prices would be less.)

You forgot a couple.

XM add for AFS - $999, Garmin - $400
ADSB for AFS - $799, Garmin - $699
Arinc adapter AFS - $500, Garmin - $0

Don't get me wrong I think the AFS stuff is top notch and easily the most intuitive out there. I really enjoyed playing with it at Oshkosh. Rob is also a really nice guy. But when I priced out a complete system, it was over $5k above the Garmin price. That's a lot of 'free' data. The screens are beautiful and I considered going that extra cost to get them, but there is the Blue Mountain/Chelton syndrome to consider and when spending this amount of money.....

When I went through all of this 6 months ago before deciding to buy the one company I was convinced (in the beginning) I would not buy, the frustrating part for me was digging though all of the apples to oranges comparisons. What I did was write down what I believe a $20k system should have as a minimum to even be considered for my panel. That list eliminated one manufacturer for me. My next criteria was is it ready to fly right now. Not promises for the future, as we have all seen those go on for years and then the company moves on to its next big thing...and the old promises are never kept. That eliminated another manufacturer. That left two and when I priced up both systems top to bottom.... It wasn't even close.

The odd thing is if I had believed (and I did) what I read in here....I wouldn't have even considered the system I ended up buying. I asked a LOT of questions of the company I bought my system through and ended up completely reversing my position once I was educated enough to make a decision.

Randle 05-30-2013 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoRv (Post 775270)
You forgot a couple.

XM add for AFS - $999, Garmin - $400
ADSB for AFS - $799, Garmin - $699
Arinc adapter AFS - $500, Garmin - $0

the frustrating part for me was digging though all of the apples to oranges comparisons.

You can go with the Xplorer ADS-b receiver from spruce for $695 instead of the ridiculously expensive Navworx receiver to bring those numbers pretty much even.
Many people have been completely scrapping the XM subscriptions for ADS-b.
Garmin charges $425 for their Arinc adaptor, it is not included, I believe it is the GAD 29.
It is like you said earlier, not everyone is going to have a Navigator so it is more cost effective by the company and to the buyer to make it “available” by the smaller avionics companies. But it is like you say, Apples and Oranges. Things to take into consideration is included add-ons:

Garmin- AOA and VPX add-ons at no additional cost
Advanced- Weight & Balance and Maintenance cklists, screen size, recurring database maintenance, and the biggest one of all, the history proven dedication to provide the experimental category with some of the most advanced (no pun intended) avionics available.

You may be sick and tired of people talking down Garmin, but I am wondering why all of a sudden now that they have dropped their prices to jump into the market people think they need to advocate for them every time another EFIS company makes a new stride?

Brantel 05-30-2013 02:26 PM

Just a friendly clarification...:)

Garmin now has both options available for the ARINC interface. The original all inclusive GSU73 and the new products which split the ARINC, ADAHRS and EIS interfaces up into multiple components. It is the installers choice.

The G3X system has a dedicated Weight and Balance Page/Utility.

It also has customizable checklist (no maintenance timers however)

Thanks for keeping it civil guys, we are all folks with a common passion and face to face most of us would get along just fine. It is OK to have good debate. As long as history has been recorded it has been Ford vs Chevy or BMW vs Benz. or something like that. That's OK, lets just not lose sight of the big picture and keep this fun!


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