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-   -   RV-7A Aerobatics Lesson with Air Show Pilot Adam Baker - Part 2 (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=120146)

SmittysRV 11-30-2014 05:26 AM

RV-7A Aerobatics Lesson with Air Show Pilot Adam Baker - Part 2
 
This video is Part 2 in the series with aerobatics instructor Adam Baker. Adam is a local air show pilot who holds an unlimited ground level waiver. In this video, Gene starts out the lesson with more Stall/Spin recovery techniques. Then they have a little more fun with some aerobatics. Gene and I are hangar mates and love putting these videos together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ooGy0T5auU

In case you missed it, here's Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb_lKYuKxvU

Arlen 11-30-2014 06:26 AM

Thanks for posting that.

The only aerobatics I've done has been spin training in a Cessna 150 about 25 years ago and in a Decathlon a couple years ago. I've had my -6 for just 9 months, and have not yet gotten instruction for aerobatics in it.

You've inspired me to give it more serious consideration..

Where does Adam Baker reside, by the way...?

sandifer 11-30-2014 04:35 PM

Another nice video Smitty. BTW, Adam has a 250' waiver, not surface- not that it matters. There's not necessarily any correlation between aerobatic skill/teaching ability and airshow waivers. There are lots of exceptional aerobatic instructors and pilots out there who don't fly air shows. Plenty of airshow pilots aren't heroic aerobats, they just do it for some level of personal satisfaction. That being said, Adam seems perfectly competent. Though I find his recommendation to recover "a flat spin or something like that" with aft stick and right rudder to be questionable advice. I'm very tuned into spin training in the aerobatic community, and this just isn't taught. Most aerobatic airplanes (including RVs - not sure about the small tail RV-6) WILL recover any left rudder spin, flat or otherwise, with right rudder and aft stick, but for the aerobatic pilot, this is not a good emergency recovery technique. Aft stick and right rudder will prevent recovery for any inverted spin mode. Aerobatic pilots have definitely been known to produce spins of all types by accident. For a right rudder inverted spin, aft stick and right rudder will just accelerate it. For a left rudder inverted spin, aft stick and right rudder will cause a crossover to an upright spin - which can be confusing to pilots who have never experienced this.

There are only (3) widely-accepted spin recovery techniques in the acro community. One is for active recovery, and the other two are emergency recovery techniques. The active technique is what most of us probably learned in initial PPL training - PARE (Power off, Ailerons neutral, Rudder opposite, Elevator forward to some degree). Then there are (2) emergency techniques - Beggs-Muller and the neutral control technique. Beggs-Muller involves pulling power off, applying opposite rudder, and letting go of the stick completely. The neutral control technique involves pulling power, and visually neutralizing ALL controls, and waiting for recovery.

There are good reasons behind these three techniques, and IMO, no other techniques should be (or need to be) taught. And in any case, neutralizing the controls will typically recover any spin type only slightly less quickly as PARE, but is an emergency recovery technique that will work regardless of spin type - unlike the aft stick, right rudder technique.

And all that being said, keep up the good work Smitty. :)

genelee59 11-30-2014 07:58 PM

Thanks for taking the time to explain the recovery techniques that you're familiar with. It sounds like you really know your spin stuff!
I'm going to print out your response and on my next lesson with Adam i'll ask him to explain the differences between his method and what you say ( maybe he just misspoke in the moment ).
But no matter what, i'm all about learning everything i can about recovery, because i'm sure to goof up something as i learn :D

genelee59 11-30-2014 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arlen (Post 937528)
Thanks for posting that.

The only aerobatics I've done has been spin training in a Cessna 150 about 25 years ago and in a Decathlon a couple years ago. I've had my -6 for just 9 months, and have not yet gotten instruction for aerobatics in it.

You've inspired me to give it more serious consideration..

Where does Adam Baker reside, by the way...?

Arlen, congrats on getting a -6, and i find that awesome that you've been inspired to give it a try too! :D
The more i get lessons on this stuff, the more comfortable i'm becoming with it. I am looking forward to the day in the not so far future where i'm up there doing this on my own.

Adam lives in the North Dallas area. What part of the country are you in?

- Gene

sandifer 12-01-2014 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genelee59 (Post 937771)
But no matter what, i'm all about learning everything i can about recovery, because i'm sure to goof up something as i learn :D

BTW, in the first video Adam hints at something that most aerobatic and airshow pilots know and/or utilize, but do not necessarily teach to those receiving primary aerobatic/spin training - that is the use of power during spin recoveries. Most aerobatic airplanes will recover a spin (normal, flat, upright, inverted, etc.) more quickly with power than without power. Airshow pilots always leave power in to recover flat spins. But in this case, power is used as an active recovery technique for a spin mode that has been practiced many times to precise and known outcomes. This is a very different concept from emergency spin recovery that would be invoked in cases of accidental spins possibly involving pilot confusion or lost situational awarenesss. In this case, leaving power on can make things worse if your inputs aren't correct. Power off is a way to remove potentially upsetting spin forces, and is virtually universally accepted as a critical step in emergency spin recovery. The first step in training is to ingrain default responses into pilot's brains that will keep them from killing themselves. More advanced techniques can be practiced as the pilot's skill and comfort level increase.

rmr 12-01-2014 11:34 AM

Great video Smitty and thank you for posting.
One thing you always here about the RV series is that they accelerate very quickly in the down line. In fact as I've practiced aerobatics in Pitts I've been purposely practicing removing power anytime the nose is pointing below the horizon (after attaining entry speed) and putting power in after the nose crosses above the horizon. I tried to listen to any power changes while you were doing your loop and didn't notice any. By any chance did you notice your airspeed on the way down and did you ever get close to Vne?
Cant wait for part three!

Richie Rivera
RV7A,
Ormond beach, FL

sandifer 12-01-2014 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmr (Post 937924)
In fact as I've practiced aerobatics in Pitts I've been purposely practicing removing power anytime the nose is pointing below the horizon (after attaining entry speed) and putting power in after the nose crosses above the horizon.

Depends on what you're trying to get out of the airplane. Even flying Sportsman level acro, I pretty much fly my Pitts using two throttle positions - wide open and fully closed. The only time it's closed is for spins. Pitts' are very draggy. I don't exceed Vne, but don't bother looking at the tach. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmr (Post 937924)
I tried to listen to any power changes while you were doing your loop and didn't notice any. By any chance did you notice your airspeed on the way down and did you ever get close to Vne?

There's no need to make power changes through a loop. If anything, you can add full power on the way up and return to your entry setting on the way down. Or you can do a loop from cruise power without touching a thing. In any airplane, as long as you enter and exit at about the same altitude, you'd need to break some laws of physics to exit with significantly more airspeed than what you entered with. There is also no need to pull more G on the backside compared to what you intially pulled with. Airspeed will only get out of control if you are very tentative pulling through the backside, and end up well below your entry altitude. Severe overspeeding on loops is like blown aileron rolls- it's generally only going to happen if you botch it up during your initial learning attempts. This is what instructors are for. It's very quick and easy to get past this stage and to the point of safely (but not necessarily beautifully) performing the basic figures.

rmr 12-01-2014 12:28 PM

Thanks Sandifer!

Richie Rivera
RV7A
Ormond Beach, FL

cka357 12-01-2014 12:49 PM

Great Videos.... This has helped inspire me to get back after it. Thanks for posting.


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