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-   -   Training for aileron rolls or other simple aerobatics (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=198885)

DylanRush 09-02-2021 05:42 PM

Training for aileron rolls or other simple aerobatics
 
I was up with a CFI yesterday who has owned his RV for a few years. We went up just to shake off the rust and do some maneuvers.

He offered to do some aileron rolls. We got up and did a few: 120kts into the maneuver, pitch up 10 degrees, yank to the side, use elevator to keep a positive G, roll out, and pitch up to get level and avoid building airspeed. It was awesome. I got my RV grin again and it lasted the whole day. He demonstrated two or three, then I did a few, and I felt very comfortable with the procedure.

My question is: should I pursue any additional aerobatic training before attempting this procedure solo? Maybe spin recovery training? I'm not sure I'm interested in other aerobatic maneuvers yet, but that interest will probably grow over time. My instructor said I did great and he said he didn't see a problem with me executing the maneuver on my own. For more context I have about 80-90 hours in my RV-6A.

Also, should one strictly adhere to the aerobatic weight and balance category, even for lower-G maneuvers like aileron rolls? My G-meter maxed out at around 2G.

jrs14855 09-02-2021 06:03 PM

Aileron Rolls
 
Aileron rolls have gotten more than a few people in trouble. Find another instructor. There is no need to slam the stick.
I use more speed and a substantially steeper climb. Touch of rudder in the direction of the roll and a nice smooth application of aileron. That keeps the nose from dropping very far below the horizon. You can establish the climb, let go of the stick and push the stick to the left or right with your finger, no elevator movement.
You may want to read the accident report on in flight breakup of RV 7 near Atlantic City NJ. That was the result of a botched aileron roll.
Get some instruction.

ty1295 09-02-2021 06:24 PM

I very much believe you should get spin training prior to doing more. You don't want to see a spin the first time solo, and not expecting it.

DylanRush 09-02-2021 07:39 PM

Excellent thanks so much for the replies! I'll get some spin training before attempting this on my own.

Ironflight 09-02-2021 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DylanRush (Post 1553073)
Excellent thanks so much for the replies! I'll get some spin training before attempting this on my own.

Excellent decision Dylan - there is always more to learn, and I’d be just a little nervous about a “spur of the moment” instructional moment from a CFI that probably didn’t check to see if the airplane was below aerobatic gross first. And oh….you WERE wearing parachutes to be legal…right?

Paul

dreed 09-02-2021 10:35 PM

I'd add my vote for training too. I'd say if you can find some upset recovery training (URT)+ some spin training even better in my opinion. They can get you pretty comfortable in all sorts of attitudes- and it's a heck of a lot of fun. I am a complete amateur, but the first time I did a hammerhead was so much fun- like a little kid giggling levels of fun. Could not wait to learn more and get better.

craig.roser 09-03-2021 02:58 AM

Dylan, I just completed a Basic Aerobatics Course Course given by Alain Aguayo. See https://www.aguayoaerosports.com/services. The course was a hoot!

Even though I do not think I will ever compete I wanted the instruction, which centered around the Primary Category Known Program, and Alain seemed the best choice. See https://www.iac.org/known-sequences.

Long ago I had gotten an Intro to Aerobatics Flight as a gift. That hour and a half went in my logbook but didn't prepare me to fly my RV8 upside down. I have to admit it was hard keeping El ZunZun upright until I competed the course. (smile)

larryMar 09-03-2021 05:39 AM

Definitely get spin training ! Spins are a normal maneuver and other countries insist on mastery before a certification. For the life of me, I can't understand FAA's very weak stall and spin training requirements.
In any case, get with an instructor who specializes or will do upright and inverted spins. ait may very well save your life!

Mcmark 09-03-2021 06:44 AM

I recently watched a botched hammerhead turn into an inverted flat spin. Scared me and I was on the ground! Get spin training!!!!

DanH 09-03-2021 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DylanRush (Post 1553046)
Also, should one strictly adhere to the aerobatic weight and balance category, even for lower-G maneuvers like aileron rolls? My G-meter maxed out at around 2G.

The risk here is an airspeed runaway, and until you get one going, you may not grasp just how quickly it can happen. Staying within the acro W&B envelope allows pulling to the designed structural limit if necessary.

Which brings up a few points. First, it does not sound like your instructor communicated the more subtle aspects of a simple one G roll. Think about Jim's comments above, in particular the phrase "..establish the climb, let go of the stick and push the stick to the left or right with your finger, no elevator movement." There are many kinds of rolls, and while some require distinct elevator inputs, this type isn't one of them.

Go here, and watch my right hand beginning at 19 seconds:

https://vimeo.com/189574781

The elevator is allowed to float to its trimmed position. The open hand means no elevator input. And there is no "yank to the side". As Jim said, smooth is the key, and note I didn't use full deflection.

Two, I won't tell you to avoid solo practice, as aptitude varies a lot. However, understand this...the error which can kill is to split-S halfway through a roll, with a subsequent overspeed breakup or ground impact. Absolutely, positively fix this mantra in your mind...Once committed to the roll, I will not pull, but instead maintain the roll input until again upright, no matter what..


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