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-   -   Training for aileron rolls or other simple aerobatics (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=198885)

edclee 09-03-2021 09:53 AM

Aerobatics
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH (Post 1553137)
The risk here is an airspeed runaway, and until you get one going, you may not grasp just how quickly it can happen. Staying within the acro W&B envelope allows pulling to the designed structural limit if necessary.

Which brings up a few points. First, it does not sound like your instructor communicated the more subtle aspects of a simple one G roll. Think about Jim's comments above, in particular the phrase "..establish the climb, let go of the stick and push the stick to the left or right with your finger, no elevator movement." There are many kinds of rolls, and while some require distinct elevator inputs, this type isn't one of them.

Go here, and watch my right hand beginning at 19 seconds:

https://vimeo.com/189574781

The elevator is allowed to float to its trimmed position. The open hand means no elevator input. And there is no "yank to the side". As Jim said, smooth is the key, and note I didn't use full deflection.

Two, I won't tell you to avoid solo practice, as aptitude varies a lot. However, understand this...the error which can kill is to split-S halfway through a roll, with a subsequent overspeed breakup or ground impact. Absolutely, positively fix this mantra in your mind...Once committed to the roll, I will not pull, but instead maintain the roll input until again upright, no matter what..

Dan is absolutely right. I taught basic aerobatics for several years and I always did upset training first. It is CRITICALLY important that if you find yourself in a very unusual attitude either by upset or a blown aerobatics maneuver, resist the temptation to use the elevator. If looking at the ground outside the windscreen pull throttle off and roll the airplane with NO ELEVATOR INPUT, until right side up then recover to level with smooth elevator. If looking at the sky through the windscreen leave throttle alone and roll the airplane (direction not important, just roll in SOME direction) with NO ELEVATOR input until right side up, then recover with elevator. Overspeed, especially in an RV is very easy to reach, and once exceeded it may be impossible (if nose down) to recover without structural damage or failure. Repeated training in the recovery is the only way to be certain you will do the right thing in a panic. I would always have the student look in his lap, the do a half snap with the nose up or down, depending. The snap happens so quick he cannot possibly know what he will be looking at when I tell him it's his airplane and recover. He must do the right thing no matter what he sees when he looks up.
Ed

jrs14855 09-03-2021 11:48 AM

Aileron rolls
 
The fatal RV7 accident near Atlantic City NJ was a result of loss of control, likely following an attempted aileron roll.
When I was instructing aerobatics I would start my preflight briefing by asking the trainee a bit about his pilot experience. One gentleman who had an RV, I think a 6, told me about an aileron roll attempt that he barely survived. At the inverted point, going much too fast, he stopped the roll and pulled back on the stick. Airspeed near 300, finished very close to the ground.

chrispratt 09-03-2021 12:33 PM

+1 for jrs14855 and DanH comments.

Chris

RV8Squaz 09-03-2021 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edclee (Post 1553158)
Dan is absolutely right. I taught basic aerobatics for several years and I always did upset training first... He must do the right thing no matter what he sees when he looks up.
Ed

When I teach aerobatics, I do exactly what Ed says above. I spend the first hour doing upset recovery training reserving the last few minutes for a couple of loops and rolls all of which is thoroughly pre-briefed. Upset recovery training includes unusual attitude recovery, stalls of all flavors including avoidance, recognition, and recovery, and spin training that includes avoidance, recognition, recovery from normal and aggravated spins. You should be comfortable with all of the above before attempting aerobatics on your own. Subsequent lessons focus on performing aerobatics correctly and recovery from poorly flown maneuvers.

I highly recommend a basic aerobatics course such as that offered by Alain Aguayo in Florida or Greg Koontz,http://www.gkairshows.com, in Alabama.

spatsch 09-03-2021 05:00 PM

You got lots of good tips in this thread. Just wanted to elaborate a bit that there are many types of rolls.

The one most people like are what many call a Hoover Roll for obvious reasons. 1 G all the way around. Something like this:

http://www.spatscheck.com/oliver/Thirsty12_10_2015.mp4

it is a really gentle maneuver can be done with less load then a steep turn if you want to. I don't think I get even 2 Gs on that one (hardest part on the video was to control the yaw so the cup didn't slide off the instrument panel when empty).

On the other hand a straight roll is much more violent then that. Not in the G load but the fact that the G load constantly changes all the way around and things move fast.

I also want to emphasize that I noticed many unexperienced acro pilots to stop rolling when inverted. It seems to be nature. That is what makes rolls dangerous. If you hang there with 1G positive you will be past Vne in no time.

Oliver

Eric_04 09-06-2021 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrs14855 (Post 1553175)
The fatal RV7 accident near Atlantic City NJ was a result of loss of control, likely following an attempted aileron roll.
When I was instructing aerobatics I would start my preflight briefing by asking the trainee a bit about his pilot experience. One gentleman who had an RV, I think a 6, told me about an aileron roll attempt that he barely survived. At the inverted point, going much too fast, he stopped the roll and pulled back on the stick. Airspeed near 300, finished very close to the ground.

This is scary, it sounds like he's very lucky the airplane did not break up in flight.

luddite42 09-07-2021 09:54 AM

I suggest getting some basic aerobatic training for a wider perspective and understanding of all the basics, not just aileron rolls. A positive G aileron roll is literally about the easiest thing you can do in an RV, assuming you have some basic awareness of how NOT to screw up, and have gotten past the point of succumbing to these pitfalls. Not sure how much perspective you have on this topic in general, so that's why I'd recommend some minimal quality aerobatic instruction.

ERJDriver 09-07-2021 09:56 AM

Depends on your back ground, are you a pro that flys everyday and have had some sort of upset training? Find someone who has a background in acro and/or upset training and go fly with them.

Iíll echo what others have said, the rate at which these things pickup airspeed when pointed down is quite impressive. There should be no aft stick pressure in the roll until youíre wings level in a normal attitude. People have a tendency to stop the roll while inverted and pull. Thatís where you get into trouble.

Get an instructor and go have fun.

uk_figs 09-07-2021 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mcmark (Post 1553134)
I recently watched a botched hammerhead turn into an inverted flat spin. Scared me and I was on the ground! Get spin training!!!!

I have that T shirt, right after completing an unusual attitudes/aerobatic course, and we also compounded the problem by pulling through rather than rolling out first to recover. Very sobering experience about how quickly things can get away from you and lesson learned. Also I remember in phase 1 being surprised at how quickly the RV accelerates when pointing straight down.

Funnily enough I was just talking to people this weekend about taking a spin training refresher after the "tuck under" videos that have been posted recently, this thread is another gentle nudge to do just that.
Figs

Vac 09-12-2021 10:45 AM

RV Inverted Acceleration Demo Video
 
Why RV's accelerate so fast inverted, nose low: https://youtu.be/CkcQartrJGQ

Fly safe,

Vac


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