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-   -   FAA ADS-B Avionics System Check (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=113529)

jdm117 05-30-2014 10:10 AM

FAA ADS-B Avionics System Check
 
Want to know how your ADS-B system is performing? Send an email with N-number to 9-AWA-AFS-300-ADSB-AvionicsCheck@faa.gov and request a detailed report.

Please include ADS-B transmitter & GPS make/model to save us a few emails if there are system performance issues.

jjhoneck 05-30-2014 11:33 AM

Done.

It will be interesting to see the results, in light of my recent problems. Example: Yesterday we were seeing ADS-B traffic in the Austin and San Antonio areas, when we zoomed our GRzt Horizon HXr screen way out, but only sporadically along the Texas coast where we are based.

Was that a system problem? It would be extremely frustrating to be chasing problems in my system, only to discover that (for example) the local ground stations were down.

Thanks for the link!

Bavafa 05-30-2014 11:34 AM

Thanks for the info. I requested a report and quickly received one but not sure what this means. I had been under the impression that my set up is in compliance since my source of location is a 430W. Does anyone know about these fields and what they mean?


ADS-B report by bavafa1, on Flickr

I can e-mail the report to those who are interested and/or can make out what the report indicates. I am a bit at lost as why my system is failing on location accuracy and intergrity.

Mike S 05-30-2014 11:42 AM

Welcome to VAF!
 
Jim, welcome aboard the good ship VAF:D

Do you by any chance work with the ADS-B program???

Good to have you here.

Brantel 05-30-2014 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bavafa (Post 884189)
Thanks for the info. I requested a report and quickly received one but not sure what this means. I had been under the impression that my set up is in compliance since my source of location is a 430W. Does anyone know about these fields and what they mean?


ADS-B report by bavafa1, on Flickr

I can e-mail the report to those who are interested and/or can make out what the report indicates. I am a bit at lost as why my system is failing on location accuracy and intergrity.

Go here for a description of what those are and what the limits are for each item:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...7!OpenDocument

Look at the "Distributions" section to see what your system is sending.

dmaib 05-30-2014 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brantel (Post 884201)
Go here for a description of what those are and what the limits are for each item:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...7!OpenDocument

Look at the "Distributions" section to see what your system is sending.

I got a report back about an hour ago that looks just like Mehrdad's. I went to 91.227 and looked at the descriptions in the link above. However, that does not help me figure out what is going on. My ADS-B out is GTX-330ES and GNS-430W and all appears to be working normally in the cockpit. ADS-B in is via SkyRadar D2 and GRT Hxr display.
Hopefully the OP can give us some insight here.

dmaib 05-30-2014 12:35 PM

Well, I just got a document that explains all of the results of one of these compliance reports. I will read it and report back to the forum.

Brantel 05-30-2014 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmaib (Post 884210)
I got a report back about an hour ago that looks just like Mehrdad's. I went to 91.227 and looked at the descriptions in the link above. However, that does not help me figure out what is going on. My ADS-B out is GTX-330ES and GNS-430W and all appears to be working normally in the cockpit. ADS-B in is via SkyRadar D2 and GRT Hxr display.
Hopefully the OP can give us some insight here.

Like you I was shocked to see my report. I have had absolutely no reason to believe that my system was not working properly.


I have a GTN 650 GPS and GTX 23 ES xponder

dmaib 05-30-2014 12:58 PM

Well, the document helps a bit. However, the fact that this report shows that my position, velocity, and navigation integrity failed 100% of the time while everything else seems to show the system is working, makes me suspect settings in the GTX-330ES, or the 430W. I remember when I installed the new avionics last year, having a hard time finding anyone who knew, with a high level of confidence, what some of the settings should be.

rleffler 05-30-2014 01:00 PM

Pretty good response time at generating these reports.

I have a Navworx/AFS/Garmin327 solution in my RV-10.

The good news is that there were no non-compliance issues were identified. Now I have to read the document they sent to understand what this is really telling me.

dmaib 05-30-2014 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brantel (Post 884217)
It looks like the OP works for the government.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/james-marks/20/240/733
It also looks like if you request your report and if you are out of spec, you are not allowed to xmit.

Personally I wish I had never requested that report!


Like you I was shocked to see my report. I have had absolutely no reason to believe that my system was not working properly.


I have a GTN 650 GPS and GTX 23 ES xponder

I am not sure there is much we can do from our end on this.

Honestly I am not going to get too excited until I hear something from the fine Garmin folks.

I read 91.225 and I am pretty sure the prohibition on transmitting is after Jan. 1, 2020.

Mike S 05-30-2014 01:04 PM

Brian, thanks for the Linkedin link-----------he seems to be with the FAA, ADS-B program as I suspected, and asked in my welcome post.

He has been watching this thread now for almost a half hour or possibly more, yet has not responded.........................too bad, I was hoping for someone in the program who was going to be active in supporting us in getting straight answers, and guidance through the ADS-B maze.

We shall see...........................................

Bavafa 05-30-2014 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brantel (Post 884201)
Go here for a description of what those are and what the limits are for each item:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...7!OpenDocument

Look at the "Distributions" section to see what your system is sending.

Here is my distribution and if I am reading this right, the entire duration of the flight "processed" which is reported as 10480, I have accuracy of greater than 10NM. Since I was using my GPS on an IFR flight plan, I would have thought to been made aware of this inaccuracy so I hardly think of such possibility.
Question is, how does the system determines my position to determine inaccurate reporting by me?
Perhaps what GPS is reporting (pertaining to ADS-B) is inaccurate and I am wondering if that is a setup issue.



Distribution by bavafa1, on Flickr

Brantel 05-30-2014 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmaib (Post 884224)
I read 91.225 and I am pretty sure the prohibition on transmitting is after Jan. 1, 2020.

From the second document they sent:


Brantel 05-30-2014 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bavafa (Post 884228)
Here is my distribution and if I am reading this right, the entire duration of the flight "processed" which is reported as 10480, I have accuracy of greater than 10NM. Since I was using my GPS on an IFR flight plan, I would have thought to been made aware of this inaccuracy so I hardly think of such possibility.
Question is, how does the system determines my position to determine inaccurate reporting by me?
Perhaps what GPS is reporting (pertaining to ADS-B) is inaccurate and I am wondering if that is a setup issue.



Distribution by bavafa1, on Flickr

What is your "GPS Position Integrity" level set to on your xponder?

Mine is set to "1E-5" and that results in a SIL of 2 but a SIL of 3 is required to be compliant.

Not sure if this will throw the other values out of whack or not but Garmin has informed me that the GNS/GTN series can legally and should be set to "1E-7".

I am going to try that and then request another report....

rleffler 05-30-2014 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bavafa (Post 884228)
Here is my distribution and if I am reading this right, the entire duration of the flight "processed" which is reported as 10480, I have accuracy of greater than 10NM. Since I was using my GPS on an IFR flight plan, I would have thought to been made aware of this inaccuracy so I hardly think of such possibility.
Question is, how does the system determines my position to determine inaccurate reporting by me?
Perhaps what GPS is reporting (pertaining to ADS-B) is inaccurate and I am wondering if that is a setup issue.

My GTN650 is providing coordinates to the Navworx unit.

My report shows NIC <7.5m, NACp <10m, NACv <1m/s, SIL 10-7, SDA 10-5, GVA <45m

That was the same question that immediately came to mind. What other data source is being used to determine accuracy? Radar versus GPS position? This certainly has got me curious.

rleffler 05-30-2014 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdm117 (Post 884156)
Want to know how your ADS-B system is performing? Send an email with N-number to 9-AWA-AFS-300-ADSB-AvionicsCheck@faa.gov and request a detailed report.

Thanks for making this available.

bob

jdm117 05-30-2014 01:31 PM

Hi Mike/All, Sorry for the delay in responding to your question regarding my association with the FAA's ADS-B program, I've been somewhat busy sending out ADS-B reports since my original post. Yes, I work on the FAA ADS-B program as a avionics safety inspector with Flight Standards in DC. My primary responsibilities are to develop policy, guidance & training related §91.225 & §91.227 for our avionics inspectors. I also provide outreach to the aviation community related to the installation & maintenance of ADS-B systems. My arrival to the Vans forum was spurred by the latter of these and the knowledge that many who have already equipped with ADS-B are unaware that the system is not working properly. I've had little success with the alphabet groups when seeking to publish material that would be helpful to members such as those here. So out of frustration thought I'd go VFR direct (so to speak) to a large group of the GA community and provide assistance as able.

dmaib 05-30-2014 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bavafa (Post 884228)
Here is my distribution and if I am reading this right, the entire duration of the flight "processed" which is reported as 10480, I have accuracy of greater than 10NM. Since I was using my GPS on an IFR flight plan, I would have thought to been made aware of this inaccuracy so I hardly think of such possibility.
Question is, how does the system determines my position to determine inaccurate reporting by me?
Perhaps what GPS is reporting (pertaining to ADS-B) is inaccurate and I am wondering if that is a setup issue.



Distribution by bavafa1, on Flickr

I wondered about this, too. Since my flight was VFR with no flight plan and no ATC involvement other than the KEVB tower, I am wondering if this is showing that they have no way of knowing if my reported position is accurate?

Mike S 05-30-2014 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdm117 (Post 884238)
I also provide outreach to the aviation community related to the installation & maintenance of ADS-B systems.

This is what I suspected, and hoped for when I asked the question in the first place.

You have come to the right place for sure---------the level of electronic sophistication on many of the RVs flying is a ripe test bed for you to interact with.

Very good to have you aboard:D

Radomir 05-30-2014 01:44 PM

All this means is that some of you have incorrectly set up equipment :) These numbers are what your equipment is *sending out* -- so if for some reason you have the most accurate GPS, but your TXP sends out NIC value of 0 (like in Mehrdad's case) you'll "fail" -- minimum acceptable value is 7 (less than 0.2nm)...

Quick edit: As Brian pointed, having your transponder's "GPS Integrity" set to 1E-5 (or worse) will produce too low of SIL values, and will make you look non-compliant (aka "fail"). Garmin's new manuals show the correct value 1E-7 (SIL=3 which is then compliant).... If you have compliant equipment (ie 330ES with 430W or 650), it should be configured this way.

Radomir 05-30-2014 01:47 PM

No, these values are not at all related to receiving ATC services. This is strictly equipment configuration (and performance).

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmaib (Post 884243)
I wondered about this, too. Since my flight was VFR with no flight plan and no ATC involvement other than the KEVB tower, I am wondering if this is showing that they have no way of knowing if my reported position is accurate?


jdm117 05-30-2014 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bavafa (Post 884189)
Thanks for the info. I requested a report and quickly received one but not sure what this means. I had been under the impression that my set up is in compliance since my source of location is a 430W. Does anyone know about these fields and what they mean?


ADS-B report by bavafa1, on Flickr

I can e-mail the report to those who are interested and/or can make out what the report indicates. I am a bit at lost as why my system is failing on location accuracy and intergrity.

Mehrdad - given your NIC/NAC performance suggest checking that your GNS 430 and transponder software are at the correct version level.

KatieB 05-30-2014 02:47 PM

Thank you!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jdm117 (Post 884238)
I also provide outreach to the aviation community related to the installation & maintenance of ADS-B systems. My arrival to the Vans forum was spurred by the latter of these and the knowledge that many who have already equipped with ADS-B are unaware that the system is not working properly. I've had little success with the alphabet groups when seeking to publish material that would be helpful to members such as those here. So out of frustration thought I'd go VFR direct (so to speak) to a large group of the GA community and provide assist as able.

Thank you for doing whatever it takes to share what you know with the flying public! As a pilot who works for one of the experimental EFIS manufacturers, I really welcome your feedback and knowledge. Maybe you can help shed some light on some of the mysteries we've been seeing, like Jay and his ADS-B issues: http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=113414

I thought we had the details nailed down for all the settings and equipment required for ADS-B broadcast now, before 2020, but stories like Jay's make me wonder if we have something wrong or if the system is still just quirky.

MarkW 05-30-2014 03:00 PM

Brian,
As I have a very similar panel to yours and I did not do very well with my "Integrity & Accuracy Check" I would appreciate if you could share anything you find out. I assume you are already talking to Steve;)

jjhoneck 05-30-2014 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KatieB (Post 884269)
Thank you for doing whatever it takes to share what you know with the flying public! As a pilot who works for one of the experimental EFIS manufacturers, I really welcome your feedback and knowledge. Maybe you can help shed some light on some of the mysteries we've been seeing, like Jay and his ADS-B issues: http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=113414

I thought we had the details nailed down for all the settings and equipment required for ADS-B broadcast now, before 2020, but stories like Jay's make me wonder if we have something wrong or if the system is still just quirky.

Just to add a bit of info, I requested (and received) this report this afternoon, and my system (Trig TT-22 Mode S transponder, Skyradar, and GRT Horizon HXr) failed, utterly, in precisely the same way as the fellow on page 1. My "Integrity and Accuracy" failed in six out of eleven categories, 100% of the time.

Trouble is: The report is made up of incomprehensible (to me) acronyms, with no advice on what, if anything, should be done to bring the system into compliance.

Katie, I have forwarded a copy of the report to Ben and Jeff (as well as to this group's one Walt Aronow) in hopes that they can provide interpretation and advice.

g3xpert 05-30-2014 03:06 PM

ADS-B Out Software and Settings
 
Hello,

For those using Garmin IFR navigators and transponders, the Position Integrity setting in the transponder configuration should indeed be set to 1E-7 to result in SIL=3, and the software should be at least to the versions identified below:

GNS/GPS 4XXW/5XXW (e.g. GPS 400W, GNS 430W, GNS 530W)
Main software version 5.03 or later and GPS software version 5.0 or later

GTN 6XX/7XX (e.g. GTN 650 and GTN 750)
Main software version 3.00 or later and GPS software version 5.0 or later

GNS 480
Main software version 2.4 and GPS software version 5.1
Aviation Service Document

GTX 23ES and GTX330ES Transponders
Main software version 7.04 or later (V8.04 released in 2019)

The RS-232 serial output port on the GNS or GTN unit providing position data to the transponder should be set to "ADS-B+" or "ADS-B+ Format 1" when available.

The RS-232 serial input port on a GTX330ES transponder configured to receive ADS-B+ position data from a GNS/GTN unit should be set to "REMOTE".

Just a quick reminder that those of us without an IFR navigator and using the G3X VFR WAAS GPS receivers only (built into the GDU 37X and GDU 46X displays) to provide data to our 1090ES transponders will have the Position Integrity set to "VFR GPS" on the GTX23ES configuration page or 1E-3 on the GTX330ES configuration page to reflect the non-certified nature of our position source.

Let us know if you have questions.

Thanks,
Steve

jclark 05-30-2014 03:22 PM

Fail as it should .... probably
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jjhoneck (Post 884273)
Just to add a bit of info, I requested (and received) this report this afternoon, and my system (Trig TT-22 Mode S transponder, Skyradar, and GRT Horizon HXr) failed, utterly, in precisely the same way as the fellow on page 1. My "Integrity and Accuracy" failed in six out of eleven categories, 100% of the time.

Trouble is: The report is made up of incomprehensible (to me) acronyms, with no advice on what, if anything, should be done to bring the system into compliance.

Katie, I have forwarded a copy of the report to Ben and Jeff (as well as to this group's one Walt Aronow) in hopes that they can provide interpretation and advice.

Unless you have a Navigator like the Garmin (or other appropriate certified systems) then if you set it up correctly, it SHOULD fail as the level of precision of the "position source" is not known to be "adequate".

Not a big deal for the moment. But for 2020 compliance ducks will have to be in a row.

My system "fails" miserably as well. But I know that it is because of the configuration settings that I have. I do NOT have a 430W or 650 at the moment so I knew that would be the case.

The GOOD NEWS is that the FAA is taking all this in and exercising the system and this allows us ALL to get value out of the investment we all as citizens are making.

James

Radomir 05-30-2014 03:22 PM

Jay, since you do not have certified equipment, your report should show you in the "fail" category. So what you're seeing there is normal for non-compliant setup.

Do note that Trig's transponder is not yet certified with Garmin's GPS's (such as 430W or 650) so even if you had that setup, you would not be officially compliant... though, that config is expected to be approved by this summer (end of it?).

jjhoneck 05-30-2014 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radomir (Post 884281)
Jay, since you do not have certified equipment, your report should show you in the "fail" category. So what you're seeing there is normal for non-compliant setup.

Do note that Trig's transponder is not yet certified with Garmin's GPS's (such as 430W or 650) so even if you had that setup, you would not be officially compliant... though, that config is expected to be approved by this summer (end of it?).

Thanks for the info!

Brantel 05-30-2014 05:36 PM

I flew this evening with the new updated GPS Position Integrity setting of "1E-7".

I have requested another report but imagine it will be Monday before I see it.

Will let everyone know how it worked out.

rzbill 05-30-2014 05:37 PM

This place is simply awesome. Since 10AM this morning we have had extremely useful information shared by the FAA, Garmin and GRT and other smart people.

Welcome to the club, jdm117, please hang around.

Thanks for the e-mail link. I just sent a request to see how my Navworx ADS600-BG is working. (Mine has self contained GPS unlike Bob Lefflers system, so expectations and corrective actions will be different)

jdm117 05-30-2014 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brantel (Post 884325)
I flew this evening with the new updated GPS Position Integrity setting of "1E-7".

I have requested another report but imagine it will be Monday before I see it.

Will let everyone know how it worked out.

Off for the weekend. Will run your report on Monday morning. Cheers

jdm117 05-30-2014 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rzbill (Post 884326)
This place is simply awesome. Since 10AM this morning we have had extremely useful information shared by the FAA, Garmin and GRT and other smart people.

Welcome to the club, jdm117, please hang around.

Thanks for the e-mail link. I just sent a request to see how my Navworx ADS600-BG is working. (Mine has self contained GPS unlike Bob Lefflers system, so expectations and corrective actions will be different)

Bill, Off for the weekend but will send your report Monday morning. Cheers

scard 05-30-2014 06:54 PM

I too am watching with much interest and amazement. I have no dog in this game yet, but will very soon x2. Garmin's immediate quality of data (no confusion there) is impressive. Incredibly encouraged that an "insider" to the program has stepped out to engage us...

GalinHdz 05-30-2014 08:13 PM

I sent my request in so looking forward to seeing what the report shows on Monday. Can you explain what the different items mean? I will need a book named "ADS-B report interpretation for dummies".

:cool:

Bavafa 05-30-2014 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmaib (Post 884210)
I got a report back about an hour ago that looks just like Mehrdad's. I went to 91.227 and looked at the descriptions in the link above. However, that does not help me figure out what is going on. My ADS-B out is GTX-330ES and GNS-430W and all appears to be working normally in the cockpit. ADS-B in is via SkyRadar D2 and GRT Hxr display.
Hopefully the OP can give us some insight here.

Hi David,
I went and check my setup and seemed I had a couple of settings that needed to be changed. On my 430W, there is a setting that was set to ADS-B whereas I was told to change it to ADS-B +
Also on my GTX 330 setting, there is a field for GPS intergrity that was set to IE-3 and I was told to change it to IE-7.

I took another flight and will request another report to see if this has fixed the issue. I will report back once I get the report.

Bavafa 05-30-2014 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdm117 (Post 884263)
Mehrdad - given your NIC/NAC performance suggest checking that your GNS 430 and transponder software are at the correct version level.

I confirmed today that it is a correct version but had the change a setting from ADS-B to ADS-B +

I will see if that makes a difference.

Thanks

jdm117 05-30-2014 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalinHdz (Post 884356)
I sent my request in so looking forward to seeing what the report shows on Monday. Can you explain what the different items mean? I will need a book named "ADS-B report interpretation for dummies".

:cool:

I'll send the decoder ring :confused: with your report Monday morning. :)

jjhoneck 05-30-2014 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdm117 (Post 884374)
I'll send the decoder ring :confused: with your report Monday morning. :)

The "decoder ring" you sent along with my report was something only an avionics tech could love. lol

In other words, with it, or without it, I had NO idea what the report was saying, other than "You failed". :p


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