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FAA Certification question

rockwoodrv9

Well Known Member
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I was ready to have my DAR inspection about 18 months ago, but I had to move out of state for work. I just checked with my DAR and he said forms are uploaded directly to FAA now. He said I have to upload my builders log.

Has anyone done that? How much did you send? Did you have a template or use the example list the FAA provides? I have tons of photos and can't imaging how large of a file it would be. I dont really feel like scanning receipts and notes on my plans. I can many boring hours making it ready to send.

Any help or info on what you did would be appreciated. Thanks
 
My DAR inspection was done in Sept and I don't remember uploading or filling out any forms online, download and print, mail in or supply with inspection yes.

I am by far no expert though.

The only requirement is builder maintains a log, it technically could be a napkin with "I Worked on airplane today". What I suspect most inspectors want to know is proof it was 51% amateur built, once they feel that is to their satisfaction they don't really care. I never had to share any pictures, although I had many.
 
I was ready to have my DAR inspection about 18 months ago, but I had to move out of state for work. I just checked with my DAR and he said forms are uploaded directly to FAA now. He said I have to upload my builders log.

Has anyone done that? How much did you send? Did you have a template or use the example list the FAA provides? I have tons of photos and can't imaging how large of a file it would be. I dont really feel like scanning receipts and notes on my plans. I can many boring hours making it ready to send.

Any help or info on what you did would be appreciated. Thanks

I used FSDO, not a DAR.

He spent all of about 30 seconds looking at the three 5" binders that were my logs. I printed double sided all the content on mykitlog site. It was originally for DR, but also worked well for FSDO.

He also questioned a couple things that I did, but when I quickly handed the page out the Van's plans, he moved on.

I'm only aware of a requirement to show FSDO your build logs to get the Repairman certificate. I'm sure that the DAR would interested in seeing them too. I don't know of any requirement to scan and upload them anywhere. Unless something has changed recently.
 
New DAR procedures

I’m a DART in the Atlanta FSDO.
The new procedures begin Jan 1,2020 For us.

The website applicants use is:

Https://awc.faa.gov/AWCExternalApplicant/Splash/index

The manual to use it is under the help menu and is 233 pages.

The DARs have their own web portal and its manual is about 350 pages

The FAA has its portal which I have not seen.

The idea is to reduce paperwork and make the process more modern and digital as possible

Vic and I discussed the new procedures this week and we both have questions. I submitted a request via the Applicant portal and am trying to learn what an applicant must face.

First obstacle will be applicants need a degree of computer saviness. A scanner will be required.

More to follow later....

Google Chrome is recommended for using the portals.

Last year the FAA introduced a new major system called DMS. We use that as a digital system of submitting, approving, and coordinating DAR inspections . It seems to be working well although my opinion is that a number of DARs resigned to avoid the new techie approach.
I think this new portal system will work well eventually but we will have some teething pains.

My recommendation: work closely with your DAR and start 3-4 months ahead of inspection date. We will learn it together as we use it.

More later...
 
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Thanks for the info Vern. Not what I wanted to hear, but needed to know!

What it does is make a person have 2 builders logs. A very simple one just good enough to get passed and one that the builder keeps.

It does nothing to make the plane safer or better - just hoops. Sad.
 
Builder log

No answer on builder log yet but I noted that EAA just released a digital builder log

The FSDO used to keep a copy of your certification files At the FSDO and forward the paperwork to Oklahoma City. That way you could get a copy of a document if you lost it. Now it seems with digital docs everything will be on a government server

Much to learn but we will get it done.
 
But what about folks like me who truly are on the incompetent & inadequate side of the digital divide, when I successfully get VAF up on the iPad I think I've made a major accomplishment and to make a post and getting it to upload before internet connection drops out I'am as shocked as if I had made a greaser landing with whiteness ( internet out here in the boonies is not much). As far as pictures go, sometime they show up, but for sending them out that just can't happen from here. Do the federal bureacrats simply A$$-u-me that because they have super duper internet that the rest of the world does too
 
The old days are gone... New online Certification process

We recently completed the Certification process using FAAs new online application process, and yes, you'll need at least an average level of computer savvy to get through it without frustration. For most, you'll have no problem... heck, we did it on the first try without reading the help/instruction files.

Suggestions based on our experience:

(1) No need to prepare a signed hard copy of the 8130-6 (Application) for upload. The online process does this for you based on a few questions and provides for an electronic signature.

(2) Prepare a hard copy of your signed Program Letter (EAA and Mel provide time proven formats).

(3) Generate a .pdf of your Program Letter and separate .pdf files for each supporting document (3-view, W&B etc.).

(4) No need to send your photo albums etc. The inspector will review these at the time of inspection.

All in all, if you have your documents in separate .pdf files, the process is not difficult... just different. BTW: worked great using FireFox on win10
 
Carl, I just found that webinar on EAA too. Thanks. Im going to watch it and see how it works. The info sounds like it will be good. Here is the link - same as you posted.

https://eaa.org/Videos/Webinars/Aircraft-Building/6089409023001

Edit: Looking into it, it looks like you may have to post a public builders log available to anyone searching. I can see how that would be good for other builders but not so good for privacy. The webinar is an hour so maybe there are ways to make it private.
 
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Thanks Ernie

Thanks Ernie. Good information.

We recently completed the Certification process using FAAs new online application process, and yes, you'll need at least an average level of computer savvy to get through it without frustration. For most, you'll have no problem... heck, we did it on the first try without reading the help/instruction files.

Suggestions based on our experience:

(1) No need to prepare a signed hard copy of the 8130-6 (Application) for upload. The online process does this for you based on a few questions and provides for an electronic signature.

(2) Prepare a hard copy of your signed Program Letter (EAA and Mel provide time proven formats).

(3) Generate a .pdf of your Program Letter and separate .pdf files for each supporting document (3-view, W&B etc.).

(4) No need to send your photo albums etc. The inspector will review these at the time of inspection.

All in all, if you have your documents in separate .pdf files, the process is not difficult... just different. BTW: worked great using FireFox on win10
 
DAR says.....

I am a DAR for the FSDO and the MIDO. The order that regulates EAB aircraft is 8130.2j; Starting January 1, 2020, all applications are to be uploaded through "AWC", a new web site that even the FSDO's and MIDO's are still having difficulty beta testing. The URL is: https://awc.faa.gov/AWCExternalApplicant/Splash/Index

6 documents need to be uploaded:

1. 8130-6 Application ( use 2018 form)
2. notarized 8130-12
3. copy of registration
4. 3 view drawing or photo
5. weight and balance
6. program letter.

If you are in the Northwest Mountain Region of the FAA, I am one of the few DAR's still active for EAB and ELSA.

Regards,

Gary Brown
please do not respond on VAF, just use my e mail [email protected]
 
Starting January 1, 2020, all applications are to be uploaded through "AWC", a new web site that even the FSDO's and MIDO's are still having difficulty beta testing.

This is what gives government agencies and their employees a bad name. If it's still not working, *it hasn't passed beta test* and is not ready for release.

:)
 
My guess is that this will be kind of like the IACRA portal which is the way pilot licenses and some other ratings and certifications are handled now. This started a few years ago. I did not use it until I had to but once I started it worked well. It is a way of doing the paper work online and eliminates a lot of errors.
 
Delay of new certification process

Got an email from the FAA today that the new digital process has been moved out to the end of March 2020.
Good move!
 
New certification procedures

I am a DAR-T and DAR-F. Also a multiple RV builder, I service the needs of the EAB and ELSA builders in the Northwest Mountain Region. The new "AWC" online submission is being tried in the NW, has a few issues. My experience is that many of my clients can build a fabulous aircraft, but not operate a computer, so it will have a lot of issues, not exactly user friendly. I suggest clients work with their DAR and perhaps submit to the DAR the documents, the DAR can offer corrections to make the documentation "perfect" prior to uploading. then the client needs to upload in the AWC web site, part of that process is they can choose the DAR they want for the certification. Once the FAA approves the package, they will assign a DAR. (Hopefully informed by phone or email). The DAR will then enter the package into another WEB site called "DMS". The FAA will delegate the process to the DAR, and the DAR can schedule for inspection. I deal with the Seattle MIDO and the Portland FSDO. If the documents are correct, I can usually be delegated to inspect within 48 hours after the client uploads proper documents into AWC. If anyone thinks the DAR charges too much ( I charge $395) they should see how much "secretarial" time we put in to keep the FAA happy with regulatory compliance. Often, each ASI in either office has their own way they "read" the order. I have a post it board full of notes of how each ASI wants the documentation proffered, so I try to make everyone happy, and try my best to make sure that the builder manufactured a safe aircraft. Registration takes a few weeks, so get on it well prior to wanting inspection!

Regards,

Gary Brown I answer to:
[email protected]
 
Not bad, but not great

I went through the online process this week. Its pushed out til the end of March, but some locations are wanting folks to use the process now. So I gave it a shot. It wasn't terrible - and it only took me about 30 minutes. That said, I agree with some of the posts here that there are going to be a lot of folks who aren't as technical as others who may struggle.

The site is created to apply for all kinds of airworthiness certificates, which is great (overall, I'm all for modernizing things). The bad thing about this is that throughout the process, there are terms and options that can be selected that don't really apply to us E/AB builders. There were a few things that I had to look up on google to figure out what they were.

My suggestion for anyone who has to go through this process is this: Get the EAA Step-by-Step Certification guide and follow it. When it comes time to use the FAA AWC site, turn to the page in the guide that shows a sample FAA Form 8130-6. Basically the site is having you fill out this form by stepping you through a bunch of questions. For example, one of the first things that happens is that it asks you what kind of airworthiness certificate you are applying for. The EAA guide shows you exactly which boxes have to be checked. The aircraft certification basis was another section that was confusing... again, having the EAA guide open to the sample form would have helped.

All-in-all, not terrible... but there is a lot that I feel the FAA can change to make it better. The biggest improvement that they could make would be to ask what kind of airworthiness certificate you want to apply for, and then tailor the rest of the application for that only. They leave a bunch of options in there that don't make sense for E/AB which I feel just adds to the confusion.

I'll report back on how long the process takes. I do know that as I was filling out the application, even before I hit submit, the local FSDO had visibility of my application. I submitted in Thursday, March 5. My DAR should have received the completed application yesterday. I'll check in with him over the weekend or Monday to see where things stand.

I did touch base with EAA government affairs (thanks Joe), and I actually created a PPT slide deck with each of the screens and indicated where I had some confusion and sent it over to the FAA, in the hopes that they would take the constructive criticism and help make things easier to use. There will definitely be a learning curve here - for both applicants and DARs. By nature we are resistant to change, but in concept, I think this is a great move to modernize things.
 
I had 7 1" binders with notes, drawings, sketches, calculations, and no physical pictures. I had a thousand digital pictures. No time log and only dated notes in several formats. Some on vendor instructions, some on Vans drawings, some in a note book and some in word. The (excellent) DAR opens one binder and asks me a question and then stopped me. He was satisfied I did build the airplane.

I must have looked a a dozen ways to do documentation and tried 4-5 ways. Even digital, to upload manage files and have access to the original files from any platform in the house was difficult. Having electronics around flying aluminum dust is not good for the equipment. Thoughts are fleeting, so keeping something close at had worked best for me. Although my documentation is good, it is certainly not organized for general review, but any specific need to know can be found, but not like a search bar. The one thing that was hard to find was pictures of me working. I had lots of "hand" pictures which the FAA found funny in the repairman interview. That seemed to be acceptable.

It might take 100 hrs to scan and get it uploaded and still not be in a searchable database order.

The tools and methods to achieve the FAA expected outcome need to be available and a long opt-out transition time for the in-process builders, the conversion at the end will be very painful. It is recommended they think through the whole process, not just the FAA end, and help facilitate accessible tools and processes that are easy to use. Then there is that kit bought with no build documentation at all.

Good luck Rock, keep this moving, we want to hear about your first flight!!
 
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I'm a DAR in the Northwest. "Major portion" or the "51%" rule is a bit grey. Any evidence that a builder can produce such as photos, build logs, build manuals with notations and dates, etc. can serve to comply with the order. Another grey area is the commercial "educational" assistance. Paying another to assist in the build in most cases is commercial assistance, and is subtracted from the major portion. Paying someone for educational assistance and guidance is allowed by the order. It is up to the ASI or DAR to make the determination at the time of inspection. Several "Kits" have been evaluated by the FAA "NKET" team, and based upon their evaluation, one can determine how much commercial assistance can be purchased and still be in compliance. For non "NKET" kits and plans built, the 2011 "51%" checklist is a good guide.

Regards,

Gary
 
Thanks Gary.
I did pass my inspection and had the first flight earlier this month. I only had one item to tighten - and as much as I hate to have Vic see this, it was a lose jam nut. I can guarantee that nut will never be lose again.

Now Im working on my Repairman's Certificate. I sent an email to my local FAA office and they replied with links to the forms and the offer to answer questions and send a draft they he will check to make sure it is all correct. I was pleasantly surprised to get a response from them so fast.
 

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I am a DAR in the Northwest. The applicant uploading the log is optional as long as it is available at the time of inspection. Also, on the AWC site, there is reference to a document 8000-38 ( cancelled form); instead, if the aircraft is not on the NKET evaluation list or if there was commercial assistance, the client can upload the 2011 "major portion - 51%" check list.

gary
 
Can anyone advise how to edit/delete documents in AWC on the application once it has been sent to the FAA? I need to make a correction but there is no “action”
column showing with my list of documents. My chosen DAR is not real savvy on it.
 
Can anyone advise how to edit/delete documents in AWC on the application once it has been sent to the FAA? I need to make a correction but there is no “action”
column showing with my list of documents. My chosen DAR is not real savvy on it.

Keith,

Once you submit it to the FAA there's really no way for you to make any changes. Your DAR should return the application to you so you can make the corrections and then resubmit. Or, send the doc to the DAR and he/she can add it. I always return the application to the applicant and let them make the changes.
 
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