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-   -   Another Hard To Reach Rivet (Rudder) (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=145512)

Reflex 01-07-2017 03:27 PM

Another Hard To Reach Rivet (Rudder)
 
I must have done something wrong or missed an instruction. Last night I dry fitted (haven't riveted the skins together yet) my rudder skins. I wanted to see how everything fit before I put adhesive on the trailing edge.

What I found was an extremely tight fit between the skins on the last rivet on the bottom edge of the rudder. It's so close that the rivet actually touches the shop head of the rivet from the other skin. In addition, when in its current position, the factory head sits just a bit proud in the dimple.

Thoughts?

Please see below:







Thanks for your input.

Fred

Tom023 01-07-2017 04:04 PM

I had same issue. Rather than risk fouling it up I took the safe way out and used an Mk-319-BS rivet and moved on. I've seen photos of others who also took this route.

rvbuilder2002 01-07-2017 04:19 PM

The latest rev. level of the rudder plans (dated 12/03/15) specify final drilling #33 and installing MK-319BS rivets in the aft most holes.

Available HERE

You don't have to use blind rivets on all the holes specified if you have a way to install solid rivets.

BTW, it looks like you may be over squeezing some of your rivets slightly (they look a little on the thin side)

Reflex 01-07-2017 04:37 PM

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the input. I'll use the MK-319BS rivets.

Regarding the rivet height, I agree, they look thin. However they fit perfectly in the gauge. I've found that some of the call-outs can be just a tad short (and some a bit long). In this case, 3-3.5's were specified. Going through the skin, R00904B-1, and R-00918 seemed like a bit of a stretch. They looked short so I checked them with calipers....they were of proper length so I used them.

Should I drill out and use 3-4's? Hate to drill out that .016 skin.

Thanks,

Fred

cczarnik 01-07-2017 05:12 PM

Minimum driven head thickness .038 per Mil Spec. That's a lot thinner than what you get with the 1.5D rule of thumb for the shop head. For reference that is very thin- less than a #60 drill bit. Source: https://www.vansaircraft.com/public/Specs.htm. So you're probably ok.

For tight rivets look up the indirect back rivet technique video on EAA's website. That might not even work for this spot though- I used pull rivets.

wjb 01-07-2017 07:46 PM

I hated these guys ... Van's should have offset them so you wouldn't have the space constraint.

I used the EAA indirect back rivet technique. Worked OK in the end, but my sailor gene surfaced in the process (%$#*!)

rvbuilder2002 01-07-2017 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reflex (Post 1140067)
Gentlemen,

Thanks for the input. I'll use the MK-319BS rivets.

Regarding the rivet height, I agree, they look thin. However they fit perfectly in the gauge. I've found that some of the call-outs can be just a tad short (and some a bit long). In this case, 3-3.5's were specified. Going through the skin, R00904B-1, and R-00918 seemed like a bit of a stretch. They looked short so I checked them with calipers....they were of proper length so I used them.

Should I drill out and use 3-4's? Hate to drill out that .016 skin.

Thanks,

Fred

As described in Section 5, the rivets called out in the plans will result in shop heads that meet the Mil Spec (posted by cczarnik), but not necessarily meet the rule of thumb which is what the rivet gauges are measuring to.
The reason this is done is because often when a rivet size is selected that will meet the rule of thumb it is actually just a bit on the long side which makes it
much more likely that a novice builder will have a bunch of them clinch over and then they start removing rivets and things go bad quickly.

A good practice with the rivet gauges is is to get it close to meeting the diam. requirement. You are then probably also close to meeting the height requirement. This usually results in meeting both dimensions for the Mil Spec.

Some builders make there own rivet gauges with holes and notches based on the Mil spec values instead of the 1.5/.5 rule of thumb values.

And no, I don't think you need to remove any rivets.... I was just mentioning it as something you might want to keep in mind as you continue.

rvbuilder2002 01-07-2017 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cczarnik (Post 1140072)
Minimum driven head thickness .038 per Mil Spec. That's a lot thinner than what you get with the 1.5D rule of thumb for the shop head.

Actually, using the .5 rule of thumb for thickness the nominal would be about .047 thick so only about .009 difference. A couple in the photo looked like they might be thinner than the Mil Spec minimum, but maybe not.

Av8rRob 01-07-2017 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 (Post 1140064)
The latest rev. level of the rudder plans (dated 12/03/15) specify final drilling #33 and installing MK-319BS rivets in the aft most holes.

Available HERE

You don't have to use blind rivets on all the holes specified if you have a way to install solid rivets.

BTW, it looks like you may be over squeezing some of your rivets slightly (they look a little on the thin side)


Scott, the link you attach only show a revision 1 dated 5/1/14 on it. Do you have a new link?

rvbuilder2002 01-08-2017 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Av8rRob (Post 1140122)
Scott, the link you attach only show a revision 1 dated 5/1/14 on it. Do you have a new link?

That is the most recent one. Accessible from THIS PAGE .

It looks like the only change at that time was correcting some file formatting so that the .PDF was fully searchable so the rev dates wont necessarily match.


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