What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

New Pilot Questions

GHARBEN

Active Member
Just started flying N12HR. An RV 4 with 800 hours.
Do most people 3 point od wheel land in crosswinds. Also is it legal to file IFR in a properly equipped RV 4?
Thanks
 
Just started flying N12HR. An RV 4 with 800 hours.
Do most people 3 point od wheel land in crosswinds. Also is it legal to file IFR in a properly equipped RV 4?
Thanks

I am flying an RV-4 first flew in 1990, I think it has short gear. It seems to do best wheel landing. Sometime when I get a little slow it will turn into a 3 point.
 
Congrats!

Regarding your IFR question, I refer you to your Operating Limitations document which is required to be in the plane for flight. Most have verbiage similar to ?if equipped i.a.w FAR xxx, IFR operations are permitted. ?
Same for night operations.

Welcome aboard!
Vern
 
Its fine

Just started flying N12HR. An RV 4 with 800 hours.
Do most people 3 point od wheel land in crosswinds. Also is it legal to file IFR in a properly equipped RV 4?
Thanks

GHARBEN,
Yes it is legal provided of course that you are IFR and current.
I've found without an autopilot, they can be a handful in hard IFR conditions.
Also lack of de-ice and heat could be a bummer.

Ahhh, the age old question of wheelies vs 3 pt, with about 800 hrs in my -4, I personally like the smoothness of wheel landings. So do my back-seaters. So at runways of about 2900 ft+ they are sweet.
For short field I fly my AOA indicator and use all 3 wheels. Landings are not as pretty but consistently 500-650 ft on grass.

Happy Landings,
Daddyman
 
It depends....

Just started flying N12HR. An RV 4 with 800 hours.
Do most people 3 point od wheel land in crosswinds. Also is it legal to file IFR in a properly equipped RV 4?
Thanks
Hey GH,
I started flying my early model short gear Four when we had to shoo dinosaurs off the runway before taking off! :)
My dos centavos has always been to wheels land on pavement, especially in a cross wind (better rudder authority, visibility) and three point on grass, soft turf or dirt. Better prop clearance, less chance of flip over, even distribution of weight etc..
As far a filing IFR, remember what?s written on the canopy bow ?Experimental? RVs can never be certified IFR since they were never certified in the first place. You can comply with the FIH requirements for operating in IMC which are:
A. Way to determine attitude
B. Way to determine altitude (within IFR tolerances)
C. Way to determine the final approach course of a non precision approach
D. Pitot static system and mode C certification by a qualified shop with associated logbook entry.

You have chosen wisely...
V/R
Smokey

PS: If you bump into Jentezen Franklin, tell him hi for me!
 
I'm sorry but after many thousands of TW hours I think it is a bit of a myth that you need to wheel land in a cross wind. Yes of course I can do it, but why?

If you land with a direct cross wind, I will agree: you can stick it on the runway with a lot more cross wind component than landing with a three point. The problem is you still need to get the tail down on the runway and you cannot put the tailwheel down in most taildraggers until you are at or nearly at stall speed. This is because most taildraggers are built so that the deck angle setting on the ground is at (or exceeds) the wings stall angle of attack.

If, after pinning the mains on during an extreme crosswind, I am on the ground with the mains rolling with the tail still up, as I slow the rudder becomes less effective at keeping me straight by shoving the tail into the crosswind. The slower I get the less my ability to keep the slowing plane aligned with the runway. Should it occur that I run out of rudder authority prior to being below stall speed I will depart the runway into the wind.

If I were to attempt to land on the same runway three point I would most likely go some where else if I could not get enough rudder at stall speed to keep the plane in alignment with the runway. The difference is with the 3 point I will know this with no ground contact, but with the wheel landing I find it out with the mains ( perhaps only one up wind wheel) firmly on the ground.

Whether I wheel land or 3 point the tail has to come down at or near stall speed, with the 3 point this all occurs at the same time and you do not have those moments in between as the rudder looses effectiveness while the tail wheel is not yest in contact firmly on the runway.
 
I see several conflicting posts wrt ifr operations. The FARs limit EAB aircraft to day, vfr operation. So to operate at night, or under IFR, you must see a waiver in your operating limitations. It will read something like ?Operation is limited to day-VFR, unless equipped per far 91.xxx? (the fars detailing equipment required for night and/or IFR).
 
FAR 91.205

Thanks, Sam. Since the OP is new to EAB he should note that FAR 91.205 is much less restrictive than the requirements for a typical, say, 172, airplane. There are significant additional requirements for type-certified aircraft. For example, two independent sources of power. As an EAB owner, it is up to you to decide what is safe enough.
 
I too just got a -4 (tall gear) and have found wheel landings SO much better in the RV.

as to your IFR question. This is a classic call to the FSDO. My aircraft was listed with only Day VFR even though its night equipped. One phone call, they were very helpful. The same answer applies to IFR (I asked because I'm planning on equipping mine for IFR). The short answer is, if it's equipped, even after the build just have it reinspected and have the limitations reflect the new capabilities. Don't be afraid to call the FSDO, they're super helpful and honestly easy to work with. Just my .2
 
I certainly appreciate everyone. I will let you know what my thought on cross wind landing after a few months. N12HR may not have stayic ports. I must give her a closer look.
PS
Smokey, I will certainly say hello to Jentzen! He was a great privilege to fly.
Thanks
G Harben
N12HR
RV 4
O 320/WOOD-SENSENICH PROP
 
I disagree

I'm sorry but after many thousands of TW hours I think it is a bit of a myth that you need to wheel land in a cross wind. Yes of course I can do it, but why?

If you land with a direct cross wind, I will agree: you can stick it on the runway with a lot more cross wind component than landing with a three point. The problem is you still need to get the tail down on the runway and you cannot put the tailwheel down in most taildraggers until you are at or nearly at stall speed. This is because most taildraggers are built so that the deck angle setting on the ground is at (or exceeds) the wings stall angle of attack.

If, after pinning the mains on during an extreme crosswind, I am on the ground with the mains rolling with the tail still up, as I slow the rudder becomes less effective at keeping me straight by shoving the tail into the crosswind. The slower I get the less my ability to keep the slowing plane aligned with the runway. Should it occur that I run out of rudder authority prior to being below stall speed I will depart the runway into the wind.

If I were to attempt to land on the same runway three point I would most likely go some where else if I could not get enough rudder at stall speed to keep the plane in alignment with the runway. The difference is with the 3 point I will know this with no ground contact, but with the wheel landing I find it out with the mains ( perhaps only one up wind wheel) firmly on the ground.

Whether I wheel land or 3 point the tail has to come down at or near stall speed, with the 3 point this all occurs at the same time and you do not have those moments in between as the rudder looses effectiveness while the tail wheel is not yest in contact firmly on the runway.

I have thoudands of hours of tailwheel time and I learned from old CAP instructors. Ive flown many tw types including the Pitts S1S with narrow bungee gear and small verticle fin and small rudder. J3,J4, pacers, tailorcrafts, champs, chiefs, swifts, funk, c120-c185. Bowers flybaby, baby ace, and several others

The Rvs have very good flying qualities. The ailerons are relatively effective even in a stall. The elevator also. That allows in to be 3 pointed in a cross wind up to a point. What is the largest control surface on an RV? The rudder? The rudder will remain effective long after the ailerons have given up. In gusty cross winds I want my ailerons and elevators to be effective. I will stick will the wheel landing. Ive even landed my -4 with the tailwheel free castering in a pretty stiff xwind and it does fine.
 
Just started flying N12HR. An RV 4 with 800 hours.
Do most people 3 point od wheel land in crosswinds. Also is it legal to file IFR in a properly equipped RV 4?
Thanks

Don?t be like me and wait too long to get comfortable w wheel landings. They are a thing of beauty in the -4! I agree with Smokey, paved rwy wheel, soft field three point.

For me, full flap wheel landing works best on the -4. Give it a shot. Most common error when new is being too fast on approach. Flight test your stall speed in full flap and clean configuration. For me at 42kts full flap stall x 1.3 = 55 kts. I fly approach at 60, over the numbers at 55 solo. Your mileage may vary, flight test flight test flight test!
 
I have several hundred hours in various tail wheel planes. I normally prefer wheel landings in cross winds. With that said, I have very little time in a low wing taildragger. Especially such a slick airframe. I started approach’s at 80. With no flaps that is a disaster! To make matters worse, N12HR has flaps that don’t stay totally up or totally down very well. Once I realized that the RV 4 was so slick needed drag to stay on the ground, my landings began to improve. It still shocks me how little drag the RV 4 has. My latest landings were at 70 with half flaps. Not bad. When it quits raining, I can’t wait to build some time and polish the landings.
Thanks
G Harben
 
I have several hundred hours in various tail wheel planes. I normally prefer wheel landings in cross winds. With that said, I have very little time in a low wing taildragger. Especially such a slick airframe. I started approach?s at 80. With no flaps that is a disaster! To make matters worse, N12HR has flaps that don?t stay totally up or totally down very well. Once I realized that the RV 4 was so slick needed drag to stay on the ground, my landings began to improve. It still shocks me how little drag the RV 4 has. My latest landings were at 70 with half flaps. Not bad. When it quits raining, I can?t wait to build some time and polish the landings.
Thanks
G Harben

Hopefully MPH?
 
Thanks, Sam. Since the OP is new to EAB he should note that FAR 91.205 is much less restrictive than the requirements for a typical, say, 172, airplane. There are significant additional requirements for type-certified aircraft. For example, two independent sources of power. As an EAB owner, it is up to you to decide what is safe enough.

What?
there is no requirement or two independent sources of power required for a standard category aircraft. there are requirements for a secondary source of power for glass, but that is in the certification of the EFIS, not for a type certificated aircraft. any standard or EAB only needs the equipment required by far91.205

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
I'm sorry but after many thousands of TW hours I think it is a bit of a myth that you need to wheel land in a cross wind. Yes of course I can do it, but why?

If you land with a direct cross wind, I will agree: you can stick it on the runway with a lot more cross wind component than landing with a three point. The problem is you still need to get the tail down on the runway and you cannot put the tailwheel down in most taildraggers until you are at or nearly at stall speed. This is because most taildraggers are built so that the deck angle setting on the ground is at (or exceeds) the wings stall angle of attack.

If, after pinning the mains on during an extreme crosswind, I am on the ground with the mains rolling with the tail still up, as I slow the rudder becomes less effective at keeping me straight by shoving the tail into the crosswind. The slower I get the less my ability to keep the slowing plane aligned with the runway. Should it occur that I run out of rudder authority prior to being below stall speed I will depart the runway into the wind.

If I were to attempt to land on the same runway three point I would most likely go some where else if I could not get enough rudder at stall speed to keep the plane in alignment with the runway. The difference is with the 3 point I will know this with no ground contact, but with the wheel landing I find it out with the mains ( perhaps only one up wind wheel) firmly on the ground.

Whether I wheel land or 3 point the tail has to come down at or near stall speed, with the 3 point this all occurs at the same time and you do not have those moments in between as the rudder looses effectiveness while the tail wheel is not yest in contact firmly on the runway.

I was going to write all of this because I prefer 3 points and full flaps almost always on my 2500' grass runway ( but mine is a RV-8 so there might be a slight difference), so I'll just quote you and say " what he said".

Regarding IFR flights, check your Operating Limitations and for navigational instruments I just installed a VAL INS-429 which sell NEW for less than $2000 and gives you en-route, non-precision ( VOR ), and precision ( ILS ) approaches and includes the MB lights, all in one package.
 
What?
there is no requirement or two independent sources of power required for a standard category aircraft. there are requirements for a secondary source of power for glass, but that is in the certification of the EFIS, not for a type certificated aircraft. any standard or EAB only needs the equipment required by far91.205

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB

The requirements for a standard category airplane are not just in the FARs; there are a lot of additional requirements hidden in the type certificate process. e.g., until the recent faa exemption for certain efis units, you had to install a TSO?d AI in a type certificated airplane. That?s not in the far?s, it?s in the type certificate rules. Likewise, you will not find any normally certificated aircraft with a Type Certificate for ifr that has only one power source for attitude info.
 
Pick a rwy and go for it

I have several hundred hours in various tail wheel planes. I normally prefer wheel landings in cross winds. With that said, I have very little time in a low wing taildragger. Especially such a slick airframe. I started approach?s at 80. With no flaps that is a disaster! To make matters worse, N12HR has flaps that don?t stay totally up or totally down very well. Once I realized that the RV 4 was so slick needed drag to stay on the ground, my landings began to improve. It still shocks me how little drag the RV 4 has. My latest landings were at 70 with half flaps. Not bad. When it quits raining, I can?t wait to build some time and polish the landings.
Thanks
G Harben

GHARBEN,
I wrote my Pilots Operating Handbook. In doing so, I actually tested my own max cross wind component.
It does not have to be tested during a landing. You can taxi around the airport (hopefully there is a tarmac). I could not taxi effectively at 18 kts. Others may do better than me, and I accept that.
When I gained confidence I actually x-wind landed at 18 and set that as my HARD stop.
Beyond that I go to another airport, and find an UBER/Lift home. Note to me: just because I can land does not mean I can safely taxi.
Hitting a runway light at 10 mph still can be a very expensive excursion.

If you are lucky and your plane came with a POH, study it. Adapt it for you.
If not, then download one from here.

Happy landings,
Daddyman
 
The requirements for a standard category airplane are not just in the FARs; there are a lot of additional requirements hidden in the type certificate process. e.g., until the recent faa exemption for certain efis units, you had to install a TSO?d AI in a type certificated airplane. That?s not in the far?s, it?s in the type certificate rules. Likewise, you will not find any normally certificated aircraft with a Type Certificate for ifr that has only one power source for attitude info.

show me the source of your info. FAR91.205 dictates what equipment is required for IFR flight. looking at type certificate 3A12 which is the type certificate for the cessna 172. since there are a lot of models,and getting into the newer models requires digging into the cessna manual, I will use the 172 - 172Q models. you will find this in the data pertinent to all models sections:

The basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable airworthiness requirements (see
Certification Basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification. This equipment must include
a current Airplane Flight Manual effective S/N 17271035 and on.

now going to car 3 which is the certification that the aircraft was certified under you will find under section 3.665 basic equipment, which is mostly the same things you will find in far 91. in in section 3.668 you will find the requirements for Gyroscopic indicators (air-driventype) the only mention of two sources is for multi engine aircraft.

the only redundant source is that cessna used a electric turn and bank, or T/C in their aircraft for certification.

there is nothing in the FARs that says a TSO'ed anything must be installed in a part 91 aircraft. there are systems that must "meet" the requirements of the TSO. A TSO does not permit the installation of anything in a type certificated aircraft, it is only one way of showing that a part can be installed on an aircraft.

there are thousands of pipers,cessnas,and beeches flying around with two air driven gyros and a electric T/C and even then, under car 3 there was nothing that said that the T/C or turn and bank needed to be electric.

again, if you can show me a certification document, or regulation requiring two independent source of power for IFR I would love to see it.
 
The requirements for a standard category airplane are not just in the FARs; there are a lot of additional requirements hidden in the type certificate process. e.g., until the recent faa exemption for certain efis units, you had to install a TSO?d AI in a type certificated airplane. That?s not in the far?s, it?s in the type certificate rules. Likewise, you will not find any normally certificated aircraft with a Type Certificate for ifr that has only one power source for attitude info.

show me the source of your info. FAR91.205 dictates what equipment is required for IFR flight. looking at type certificate 3A12 which is the type certificate for the cessna 172. since there are a lot of models,and getting into the newer models requires digging into the cessna manual, I will use the 172 - 172Q models. you will find this in the data pertinent to all models sections:

The basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable airworthiness requirements (see
Certification Basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification. This equipment must include
a current Airplane Flight Manual effective S/N 17271035 and on.

now going to car 3 which is the certification that the aircraft was certified under you will find under section 3.665 basic equipment, which is mostly the same things you will find in far 91. in in section 3.668 you will find the requirements for Gyroscopic indicators (air-driventype) the only mention of two sources is for multi engine aircraft.

the only redundant source is that cessna used a electric turn and bank, or T/C in their aircraft for certification.

there is nothing in the FARs that says a TSO'ed anything must be installed in a part 91 aircraft. there are systems that must "meet" the requirements of the TSO. A TSO does not permit the installation of anything in a type certificated aircraft, it is only one way of showing that a part can be installed on an aircraft.

there are thousands of pipers,cessnas,and beeches flying around with two air driven gyros and a electric T/C and even then, under car 3 there was nothing that said that the T/C or turn and bank needed to be electric.

again, if you can show me a certification document, or regulation requiring two independent source of power for IFR I would love to see it.
 
Back
Top