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Pix of the new GRT Horizon Hxr Installation

J

jjhoneck

Well Known Member
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...073741830.100000777116758&type=1&l=f0f8722b87

In this upgrade we totally gutted everything in the 2003 panel, retaining only a Garmin GPS/Com (GNC-300XL), a clock, two back-up instruments, and our TruTrack autopilot.

In addition to the GRT Horizon Hxr, we installed a PS Engineering PAR 200 Audio panel/Intercom/Com, a Skyradar ADS-B unit, and GRT's own standalone GPS. We removed a bunch of switches and wiring that were either redundant or unneeded. (The original builder had switches to control the speed of the trim, and the ability to switch the tach from one side to the other. Those circuits went away, along with some interesting lighting circuits.)

The autopilot is slaved to either the Garmin or the GRT, controlled by a switch that controls 26 (!) lines.

The project took nine days. We could have done it in 7, except the panel blueprints that Stein provided showed a cross-member behind the panel that wasn't there. Since we had planned to build a shelf for the AHRS, back-up battery, and remote radio that attached to that member, we had to make an on the fly redesign.

We are now down to configuring the unit with the 200 parameters it can measure. We are also having a problem with the Trutrak talking to the GRT, but should have that ironed out today.

Many thanks to my friend Tom Berge, who flew down with his wife for a "working vacation" on the island to do this job. I was there the entire nine days (it really is a 2-man job) but my role was "gopher" and "student avionics tech". I did some of the sheet metal work, and pulled a bunch of wires, but the brains of the operation was all Tom. I stand in awe of his knowledge and abilities -- the workmanship is gorgeous -- and I learned so much about avionics in the process.

I haven't figured it out, yet, but I'm guessing we gained 10 - 15 pounds of useful load by ripping out the vacuum system and instruments. We shall see after I add the numbers.
 
Looks really nice. You are going to love the setup.

I've been flying behind the HXr for some time now and I'm still amazed by how capable it is.

Holler if you have any questions on it.
 
Yeah, it was a "Drunk Monkey" panel -- as in "This thing looks like it was designed by a drunk monkey!" :D

Now, it looks right, and will work as I need it to.

We're still trouble-shooting the switched connection that controls which unit controls the autopilot. It's acting bizarrely, since when the switch is flipped toward the GRT, it's actually being driven by the 300!

When the switch is flipped toward the 300, nothing is driving the autopilot. We just painstakingly verified that it's wired up correctly according to the wiring diagram, so now it's in the hands of Stein's wiring guru, Mike. (He drew up the plans.)

Could be settings in the software, too. Argh, this is SO complex.
 
I had a similar issue when I first wired up my panel, had a switch to choose which GPS input the A/P looked at.

Didnt work.................

I finally found out the two GPS outputs were different baud rate, so I took out the switch. May have been different nema code or something like that also.

Also, do you have ARINC in there??? you need both ARINC and serial to make the TruTrak happy as I recall.

Good luck, hope all goes well.
 
Mike - would you mind elaborating on your last comment about needing both A429 and RS232 inputs to make the TruTrak happy, please?

My intent is to wire A429 from 2 sources (EFIS & GNS480) through a selector switch to the AP. I don't see anything in the TruTrak manual that indicates an RS232 input is "required". If it is required, does it need to come from the same source (ie GNS480) or is the TT happy if its fed RS232 from an alternate source, ie a G396 or similar>
 
Canadian_JOY said:
Mike - would you mind elaborating on your last comment about needing both A429 and RS232 inputs to make the TruTrak happy, please?
Click to expand...

Not much to elaborate on, I was having trouble with my A/P not holding a heading when I was not on a flight plan to a specified waypoint--------called GRT, and Carlos told me I needed to add a serial line.

I did, problem gone.
 
Here's a kicker: After a bunch of troubleshooting, we discovered that the GRT Horizon can switch INTERNALLY (with a soft button) between the Garmin 300 and the GRT.

In other words, the gawd-awful-to-wire switch with 26 wires going to it is redundant. It is not needed at all.

Well, that's not entirely true. IF the GRT screen ever goes totally blank, switching the switch to the 300 side will take the GRT entirely out of the loop. But with it switched to (what we thought was) the GRT, the EFIS can actually see both the 300 and the GRT's own GPS.

The irksome thing about this is that the guy who drew up the electrical diagram for us was obviously unfamiliar with the Horizon Hxr's capabilities. We wired it up PRECISELY to the specs provided, and it turned out to be unnecessary. We received bad information that cost us a day and a half, plus materials.

But it's not all bad. In the end, it is preferable to be able to switch between the two internally. I just wish we hadn't wasted so much time and money on an unnecessary bunch of circuitry.

But, it's done. We swung the compass, tested the airspeed indicator in a fast taxi (the weather here has been awful for a week), got the recalcitrant trim indicator working (bad ground fixed), and everything appears nominal. Tomorrow we take 'er up for a test flight, I hope!

Here's a pic of the finished panel:

1978620_647368448632386_1147329013_n.jpg
 
26 wires

jjhoneck said:
Here's a kicker: After a bunch of troubleshooting, we discovered that the GRT Horizon can switch INTERNALLY (with a soft button) between the Garmin 300 and the GRT.

In other words, the gawd-awful-to-wire switch with 26 wires going to it is redundant. It is not needed at all.

Well, that's not entirely true. IF the GRT screen ever goes totally blank, switching the switch to the 300 side will take the GRT entirely out of the loop. But with it switched to (what we thought was) the GRT, the EFIS can actually see both the 300 and the GRT's own GPS.

The irksome thing about this is that the guy who drew up the electrical diagram for us was obviously unfamiliar with the Horizon Hxr's capabilities. We wired it up PRECISELY to the specs provided, and it turned out to be unnecessary. We received bad information that cost us a day and a half, plus materials.

But it's not all bad. In the end, it is preferable to be able to switch between the two internally. I just wish we hadn't wasted so much time and money on an unnecessary bunch of circuitry.

But, it's done. We swung the compass, tested the airspeed indicator in a fast taxi (the weather here has been awful for a week), got the recalcitrant trim indicator working (bad ground fixed), and everything appears nominal. Tomorrow we take 'er up for a test flight, I hope!

Here's a pic of the finished panel:

1978620_647368448632386_1147329013_n.jpg
Click to expand...

I thought that was weird as we have our HS that can switch between our 300 and our 696 just by selecting GPS1 or GPS2. I assumed you were doing it to be able to go around the GRT in the event of total failure.

Which autopilot are you using?

Good luck on the test flight!
 
Jay,
The new panel looks great. I am sure you will enjoy flying it. Tom helped me on my plane as well and you are right, his work is perfection. Up in the northern states we are still hangar bound with temps below zero and lots of snow. I hope to get out this weekend weather permitting.
 
It seems like it was yesterday when you were trying to decide which way to go.
I had the SX in my 8a and loved it. The EIS 4000 is bullet proof, you have a good combo and I'm sure you will love it.
 
jjhoneck said:
Here's a kicker: After a bunch of troubleshooting, we discovered that the GRT Horizon can switch INTERNALLY (with a soft button) between the Garmin 300 and the GRT.

In other words, the gawd-awful-to-wire switch with 26 wires going to it is redundant. It is not needed at all.

Well, that's not entirely true. IF the GRT screen ever goes totally blank, switching the switch to the 300 side will take the GRT entirely out of the loop. But with it switched to (what we thought was) the GRT, the EFIS can actually see both the 300 and the GRT's own GPS.

The irksome thing about this is that the guy who drew up the electrical diagram for us was obviously unfamiliar with the Horizon Hxr's capabilities. We wired it up PRECISELY to the specs provided, and it turned out to be unnecessary. We received bad information that cost us a day and a half, plus materials.
Click to expand...

In defense of Stein and his guys, as much as I like GRT equipment, it seems like everytime I install or have to modify the wiring I'm on the phone with them to get info that is not readily available in the diagrams or the text of the install manual. Their manuals and sample diagrams leave too much to the imagination and sometimes what I/we "assume" is correct because that's the way it "normally" is, may not be true with the GRT. So if you ask me the problem here was likely not with Stein but with GRT's lack of supporting documentation.
 
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Our autopilot is a terrific TruTrack Digiflight II. The thing has been perfect, so we kept it in the panel.

We flew 1.5 hours today. The GRT (and all other avionics) worked perfectly -- EXCEPT the GRT still isn't talking to the autopilot. Argh.

When I engage the autopilot, it starts tracking...something. It ain't the course to the destination in either the Garmin or the GRT, but it very precisely and persistently tracks it! lol

But everything else was AWESOME. Ran a stall regime to calibrate our airspeed indicator, swung the magnetometer on a nearby compass rose, and flew a couple Highway In The Sky approaches. Wow, those are COOL.

I plan to spend an hour or three on the phone with Stein tomorrow, going through every single setting.
 
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And don't forget for the new system to be "legal" you will need to certify the new transponder/altimeter/altitude encoder (assuming you are now using the GRT as the encoder).
 
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Speaking of which -- how do I determine the discrete code to program into the GRT's transponder that is transmitted? The N number part is obvious, but there's another code that it's asking for. The guys at Stein didn't know.

Here's a pix from today's flight. Wow, what a difference!

1620545_647797488589482_1567058004_n.jpg
 
Jay, don't try to squeeze the black out of the stick, it can't be done.

Less PC tips for flying available via PM. :D
 
26 wires?

Once you get things sorted out, I can pretty much promise you that you'll always use the EFIS to control the autopilot - it's just much easier. (You also get heading hold, and VOR, ILS tracking if you have a nav, which the TT won't handle on its own.)
But having that switch so you can run the autopilot directly off the G300, in the event of an EFIS failure, is not a bad idea. I only count 9 wires: 2 ARINC and one Serial; one triplet from the EFIS, one triplet from the G300, and one triplet to the autopilot. What are all the other wires for?
 
Manuals

"Go to the FAA website and pull up your N number, the hex and octal codes are both listed."

Just a BTW: the procedure for finding and entering the hex code for your mode S assignment is in the GRT transponder supplement manual. It's disappointing if the tech's didn't know that.

I know that reading these manuals is like reading a dictionary, but there is a lot of useful information there - you just have to persevere through it all.
 
Well, the latest is that Stein has reached the limits of their ability to provide support, and their tech has advised me to contact GRT for proper configuration of the Horizon Hxr so that it can drive the TruTrack Digiflight II.

I've got to say this is fairly disappointing, but not unexpected. These are basically computers they are selling, and our connectivity problem is apparently a software configuration issue. So, not unlike when you buy a computer at Best Buy, the techs aren't going to be able to help you run Microsoft Office.

Still, I'm surprised that something so common is presenting Stein with such problems. After all, I'm not trying to daisy chain ten screens together -- I'm simply trying to run a VERY common autopilot with a very common EFIS. After multiple phone calls, their tech admitted that he didn't even have an Hxr on his bench, and was unfamiliar with its configuration and buttonology.

And that, in a nutshell, is why they don't know how to program it so that it works. They simply haven't played with what they're selling enough to provide set-up support.

Sadly, GRT's configuration documentation is so sparse as to be basically worthless. In fact, I can find nothing in writing about configuring the EFIS which, given the awesome complexity of the task -- we're talking a hundred or more programmable parameters -- is pretty crazy.

After multiple fruitless phone calls to GRT, I finally got a hold of someone via email. I've now got an "appointment" to talk to Ben at GRT on Monday about this problem. Hopefully the guys who invented this thing can make it talk the TruTrack lingo? :(

Man, this is starting to gripe my cookies. It's a really cool system, but...
 
catmandu said:
Jay, don't try to squeeze the black out of the stick, it can't be done.

Less PC tips for flying available via PM. :D
Click to expand...

Hmmm. My knuckles DO look pretty white there, don't they?

I don't know what I was doing when Mary snapped that pic, but I was obviously tense. It's weird flying -- it's almost like a new plane! Even the start procedure is different, as we added a separate starter button and split master switch.
 
It is indeed difficult to troubleshoot something we didn't wire up (nor do any harnesses for), we didn't install, we didn't configure, hooked to an autopilot we also didn't install, and contrary to what you think isn't that common of a setup. The HxR screens are relatively new and not terribly numerous in actual flying planes (there are a number of them, just certainly not as many as other setups), and most all of them we've done are running the GRT proprietary autopilot and servos.

Were it an older screen with the standard interfaces, and a known software level in your autopilot, and we had actually wired it up, it woulda been a much different task. Without knowing all of the details of the installation it's incredibly difficult without being there in person to troubleshoot the configurations, wiring, interfaces, etc... that someone else did. Normally, we try to wire the stuff up on the bench here in our shop and run it all, then ensure the configurations are working and then ship it off to you. In that case the setup/configuration is much easier. Also, it is true that we don't happen to have an HxR coupled to a DIIVSGV with a GNC300XL (I'm betting not many of my colleagues do either) on the bench at this time (we normally setup the actual customer unit when we do this wiring, but that was not the case here)..

We're doing what we can to try and get this working for you, but GRT would be the best ones to assist you with the details (or the folks who installed and wired it up for you on site). We often claim to be miracle workers, but I'm afraid this reached the limits of our miracles! Sorry for your frustrations...hopefully we'll see to it that GRT gets you going asap. To be fair, we are still answering the phone and continue to expend a good number of hours so far trying to troubleshoot an installation and wiring that we didn't even do in order to try and get you taken care of. I'm confident that one way or another it'll all get worked out! :)

Cheers,
Stein
 
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Jay,

The HXr is, internally, similar to the HX.
Download the HX installation and set up manuals. Most of the programming is the same. E.g., most likely you'll want the same settings described for the TT in the HX documents.

Program the serial output to the TT per the TT documentation (maybe, 9600 and NMEA?? It will need to be the same as the G300 output). Then put the TT in the mode where it accepts external ARINC commands, and it should be working. (this is one thing where the Trio has got it right - it always defaults to ARINC commands)

Also, to comment on a previous post - I do not know about TT but Trio explicitly states that a serial line must be connected, and it must come from the same source, as the ARINC data.
 
Post number 26 was deleted by me (and replaced with this one), poster notified. Not appropriate for public forum, if you must send this type of message please do so off line. Thank you and have a nice day :).
 
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Hi Jay
I have an HXr and my Digiflight II flies the entered flight plan perfectly using only the single wire NMEA serial from the HXr. I don't have a second Nav source like you and of course you'll want an AP source select switch. A brief Google search turned up this diagram which includes the ARINC lines and shows what I think you are trying to accomplish.
http://3limafoxtrot.com/image/Wiringdiagram_image001.gif
 
Update: I spent an hour of quality time with Ben from GRT, trouble shooting our autopilot steering problem, after emailing him a copy of the wiring diagram for our new panel.

After some head-scratching and bewilderment at the complexity of the source selector switch, he allowed that it should work as designed. So, there are just two options remaining.

Either:

1. The GRT is not sending out steering information to the TruTrack autopilot.

2. There is an error in the wiring.

It is not possible to test the unit for this functionality without plugging in a doohickey (that's a real technical term) that connects a couple of pins together. Ben is making this doohickey, and mailing it to me. We will then plug it in the back of the GRT unit, and check some magic setting that will verify to Ben that it's working...or not.

Given the likelihood that the unit is operating normally, the odds point to an error in wiring. To that end, Tom has assembled a "Care Package" of stuff for me that includes a pin-removal tool, crimp on connectors, etc. I should receive it in a few days.

Then, the fun begins. Luckily, Ben has narrowed the potential problem down to the pin outs on just two wires, so finding/fixing this shouldn't be the end of the world.

Sadly, we are about to experience the 10-days of madness called "Spring Break" on the island, with 100,000 college kids headed to our beach. Thus, I won't have any more time to mess with this for a couple of weeks.

In the meantime, I've managed to fly with this awesome panel a couple more times. The HITS approaches are just effing AMAZING, as are all the other functions and features. I have created/uploaded our checklists into the EFIS, which is a really, really nice feature, and the Bluetooth connection to the backseat Nexus 7 has given us a real EFIS for the back cockpit!

Here's a pic of me rolling onto Rwy 12, after flying through the Highway in the Sky boxes, taken yesterday as I landed on the island.

1780622_10201800872718844_78580713_n.jpg
 
I hesitate to post this here, since it seems that if everything isn't all duckies and doodles, it gets deleted. But here goes

In my previous posts, we were struggling to make our new GRT Horizon Hxr talk to our Trutrack Digiflight II autopilot. Complicating the process was that during our panel re-do we installed a complex source select switch (allowing us to switch the autopilot steering source between our old Garmin GNC-300XL and the GRT Horizon EFIS's own GPS) that turned out to be unnecessary. The EFIS could do the source select internally, rendering the separate switch redundant.

Well, we've got everything (or 99% of everything) resolved, and it turns out that we wired everything 100% to spec.

Here's the deal:

The GRT Horizon works quite differently than most GPS-to-Autopilot arrangements. Two things happen that are unlike anything I've ever worked with:

1. When you activate the autopilot, the autopilot tries to fly you back to the magenta course line that you may have programmed in an hour ago. That line might be 40 miles off your right side, for example.

Thus, when you activate the autopilot, it might not steer you directly to your destination, as expected. In fact, it might steer you up to 90 degrees AWAY from your destination.

2. The EFIS controls for the autopilot are counter-intuitive, in my opinion. Specifically, to activate the autopilot, you MUST press the "EXIT" button from the autopilot screen to make it go.

In other words, "Exit" performs the same function as "Enter" on other GPS units.

Either of these separately would be bad enough. Combine these two idiosyncratic traits, and you have created the perfect storm for complete confusion. When I was lucky enough to activate the autopilot -- something that was not happening regularly, since I would not have thought to press the "exit" key to turn on the autopilot -- it was seemingly steering me in random directions.

And if I didn't hit the "Exit" key -- an act that I would not do intentionally, since in my world to "exit" is to "leave", not "activate" -- the autopilot wouldn't even do THAT.

Thus, it seemed to be behaving randomly, pointing to a wiring and/or configuration problem.

After endless hours of experimentation, I now know to REPROGRAM my destination from my current position in flight, and THEN activate the autopilot by hitting "Exit". This redraws the course line from my current position, and all is well. When these two things are done, the unit works perfectly, tracking to the target unerringly.

This whole problem stems from the fact that the GRT Horizon came with NO documentation, and no training in its use. The instructions that are available are on-line, and are quite piece-meal. With no training in how to use this VERY complex computer system, we were basically left to fend for ourselves.

Thus, we wasted untold hours, trying to track down what we thought were problems with the unit and/or wiring. In fact, we simply did not know how to make the unit work.

This has been very, very frustrating, to say the least. I am thankful that it now works as we intended it to all along, but the manufacturer (or salespeople) needs to develop some sort of training regime that will walk users through these scenarios. Better yet, a computer-based simulator would be terrific.
 
jjhoneck said:
I hesitate to post this here, since it seems that if everything isn't all duckies and doodles, it gets deleted. But here goes

In my previous posts, we were struggling to make our new GRT Horizon Hxr talk to our Trutrack Digiflight II autopilot. Complicating the process was that during our panel re-do we installed a complex source select switch (allowing us to switch the autopilot steering source between our old Garmin GNC-300XL and the GRT Horizon EFIS's own GPS) that turned out to be unnecessary. The EFIS could do the source select internally, rendering the separate switch redundant.

Well, we've got everything (or 99% of everything) resolved, and it turns out that we wired everything 100% to spec.

Here's the deal:

The GRT Horizon works quite differently than most GPS-to-Autopilot arrangements. Two things happen that are unlike anything I've ever worked with:

1. When you activate the autopilot, the autopilot tries to fly you back to the magenta course line that you may have programmed in an hour ago. That line might be 40 miles off your right side, for example.

Thus, when you activate the autopilot, it might not steer you directly to your destination, as expected. In fact, it might steer you up to 90 degrees AWAY from your destination.
Click to expand...

The certified King autopilot in the Bonanza that I fly will do the exact same thing if you engage it in one of the nav modes and the CDI needle isn't centered, it will bank the aircraft immediately to intercept the course line.

2. The EFIS controls for the autopilot are counter-intuitive, in my opinion. Specifically, to activate the autopilot, you MUST press the "EXIT" button from the autopilot screen to make it go.

In other words, "Exit" performs the same function as "Enter" on other GPS units.

Either of these separately would be bad enough. Combine these two idiosyncratic traits, and you have created the perfect storm for complete confusion. When I was lucky enough to activate the autopilot -- something that was not happening regularly, since I would not have thought to press the "exit" key to turn on the autopilot -- it was seemingly steering me in random directions.

And if I didn't hit the "Exit" key -- an act that I would not do intentionally, since in my world to "exit" is to "leave", not "activate" -- the autopilot wouldn't even do THAT.

Thus, it seemed to be behaving randomly, pointing to a wiring and/or configuration problem.

After endless hours of experimentation, I now know to REPROGRAM my destination from my current position in flight, and THEN activate the autopilot by hitting "Exit". This redraws the course line from my current position, and all is well. When these two things are done, the unit works perfectly, tracking to the target unerringly. [\QUOTE]

This is not consistent with my experience. Typically, the GRT waits for "exit" if you haven't completed an input. For example, when setting the altitude, you press the right knob, rotate to adjust the setting, then press and rotate to set the VS/AS, then press again to complete the entry. No need to hit "exit" afterward. If you fail to press the knob, you really haven't completed the process, and the "EXIT" menu option will remain displayed. Also, I think the GRT is essentially always sending the autopilot commands to the tru-trak.. I specifically engage/disengage the AP thru the tru-trak head unit. I think this part is a bit different when using GRT's AP, however.

This whole problem stems from the fact that the GRT Horizon came with NO documentation, and no training in its use. The instructions that are available are on-line, and are quite piece-meal. With no training in how to use this VERY complex computer system, we were basically left to fend for ourselves.

Thus, we wasted untold hours, trying to track down what we thought were problems with the unit and/or wiring. In fact, we simply did not know how to make the unit work.

This has been very, very frustrating, to say the least. I am thankful that it now works as we intended it to all along, but the manufacturer (or salespeople) needs to develop some sort of training regime that will walk users through these scenarios. Better yet, a computer-based simulator would be terrific.
Click to expand...

Since about 2009, GRT's online manuals have been pretty good, in my opinion, and since last year there have been some significant improvements. There are a few items that aren't terribly clear, but generally I think their online documentation is adequate now.

Skylor
RV8
(GRT Horizon HX/HS in the panel)
Click to expand...
 
jjhoneck said:
I hesitate to post this here, since it seems that if everything isn't all duckies and doodles, it gets deleted. But here goes

In my previous posts, we were struggling to make our new GRT Horizon Hxr talk to our Trutrack Digiflight II autopilot. Complicating the process was that during our panel re-do we installed a complex source select switch (allowing us to switch the autopilot steering source between our old Garmin GNC-300XL and the GRT Horizon EFIS's own GPS) that turned out to be unnecessary. The EFIS could do the source select internally, rendering the separate switch redundant.

Well, we've got everything (or 99% of everything) resolved, and it turns out that we wired everything 100% to spec.

Here's the deal:

The GRT Horizon works quite differently than most GPS-to-Autopilot arrangements. Two things happen that are unlike anything I've ever worked with:

1. When you activate the autopilot, the autopilot tries to fly you back to the magenta course line that you may have programmed in an hour ago. That line might be 40 miles off your right side, for example.

Thus, when you activate the autopilot, it might not steer you directly to your destination, as expected. In fact, it might steer you up to 90 degrees AWAY from your destination.
Click to expand...

The certified King autopilot in the Bonanza that I fly will do the exact same thing if you engage it in one of the nav modes and the CDI needle isn't centered. It will bank the aircraft immediately to intercept the course line.

2. The EFIS controls for the autopilot are counter-intuitive, in my opinion. Specifically, to activate the autopilot, you MUST press the "EXIT" button from the autopilot screen to make it go.

In other words, "Exit" performs the same function as "Enter" on other GPS units.

Either of these separately would be bad enough. Combine these two idiosyncratic traits, and you have created the perfect storm for complete confusion. When I was lucky enough to activate the autopilot -- something that was not happening regularly, since I would not have thought to press the "exit" key to turn on the autopilot -- it was seemingly steering me in random directions.

And if I didn't hit the "Exit" key -- an act that I would not do intentionally, since in my world to "exit" is to "leave", not "activate" -- the autopilot wouldn't even do THAT.

Thus, it seemed to be behaving randomly, pointing to a wiring and/or configuration problem.

After endless hours of experimentation, I now know to REPROGRAM my destination from my current position in flight, and THEN activate the autopilot by hitting "Exit". This redraws the course line from my current position, and all is well. When these two things are done, the unit works perfectly, tracking to the target unerringly. [\QUOTE]

This is not consistent with my experience. Typically, the GRT waits for "exit" if you haven't completed an input. For example, when setting the altitude, you press the right knob, rotate to adjust the setting, then press and rotate to set the VS/AS, then press again to complete the entry. No need to hit "exit" afterward. If you fail to press the knob, you really haven't completed the process, and the "EXIT" menu option will remain displayed. Also, I think the GRT is essentially always sending the autopilot commands to the tru-trak.. I specifically engage/disengage the AP thru the tru-trak head unit. I think this part is a bit different when using GRT's AP, however.

This whole problem stems from the fact that the GRT Horizon came with NO documentation, and no training in its use. The instructions that are available are on-line, and are quite piece-meal. With no training in how to use this VERY complex computer system, we were basically left to fend for ourselves.

Thus, we wasted untold hours, trying to track down what we thought were problems with the unit and/or wiring. In fact, we simply did not know how to make the unit work.

This has been very, very frustrating, to say the least. I am thankful that it now works as we intended it to all along, but the manufacturer (or salespeople) needs to develop some sort of training regime that will walk users through these scenarios. Better yet, a computer-based simulator would be terrific.
Click to expand...

Since about 2009, GRT's online manuals have been pretty good, in my opinion, and since last year there have been some significant improvements. There are a few items that aren't terribly clear, but generally I think their online documentation is adequate now.

Skylor
RV8
(GRT Horizon HX/HS in the panel)
Click to expand...
 
Jay,

I'm sorry you are having difficulty, but, as the last post says, none of this is unconventional. "Exit" means exit that menu page. If you ask the autopilot to track the gps course, you cannot be surprised if it does that, even if you entered the course an hour ago. Why would you think it would go direct to your destination? Very capable autopilots are necessarily complex, and take practice and/or training to operate. I routinely check out pilots in the local flying club's 182 with a simple single axis autopilot, and they universely do not know how to use it. With a much more complex autopilot you must expect that it will take substantial effort to learn how to use it.
Also, you complain about the documentation, yet you asked a question ("How do I find my mode S address?") that is directly answered in the on line documentation. I know it's dry reading, but it is there and you really need to study it.

Bob
 
skylor said:
This is not consistent with my experience. Typically, the GRT waits for "exit" if you haven't completed an input. For example, when setting the altitude, you press the right knob, rotate to adjust the setting, then press and rotate to set the VS/AS, then press again to complete the entry. No need to hit "exit" afterward. If you fail to press the knob, you really haven't completed the process, and the "EXIT" menu option will remain displayed. Also, I think the GRT is essentially always sending the autopilot commands to the tru-trak.. I specifically engage/disengage the AP thru the tru-trak head unit. I think this part is a bit different when using GRT's AP, however.
Click to expand...

My real life experience with the unit is obviously limited to just a few flights, so it's entirely possible that the button sequence I've described is inaccurate. However, I've found the buttonology of the GRT to be somewhat inconsistent between functions, with some things having a defined "enter" button, and others not.

In this case, the autopilot would not engage until the selection screen was "exited". If there's a way to engage it by pushing an "enter" button, I simply haven't found it. Yet! :)

I sure wish GRT would develop a computer-based Horizon sim program that would allow you to mess with this stuff in advance. I suspect the good folks at GRT think everything is self-explanatory and simple, but from where I am sitting this has been anything but simple.

That said, it's an AMAZING EFIS. Flying with it is a real pleasure, with every possible piece of data and flight information presented clearly. Now that I've figured out the stupid autopilot function, I look forward to many years of happy use.
 
Jay, you sound like a grumpy old night manager at some flea bag hotel during the middle of Spring Break. Oh wait . . . :)

I agree that GRT buttonology may not seem intuitive. I offer that it is just different. I went through that exact same frustrating "Where the heckfire is the plane going?" as it tried to rejoin the magenta line. Sometimes old dogs do need to learn new tricks. Just yesterday I spent eight hours doing off and on training on my GRT and my Trutrak. This was, however, done at altitude as I zipped up and down the east coast retrieving my daughter for spring break (no credit card denials this time!). I'll personally take that over Computer Based Training (CBT) any day of the week. Especially if developing CBT adds to the price / performance ratio we get from GRT on our EXPERIMENTAL airplanes.

In the end, it's all good, friend I have not met!
 
Jay, you'll love it once you get used to it.

I've spent literally thousands of hours behind different panels with different autopilots and FMC's. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've heard, "what's it doing now". Watch the scoreboard and it will tell you what the A/P's doing. They are all different but once you get the hang of it you'll like it.

If I could give one piece of advice while using the GRT autopilot, it's -- put it in the heading mode while you're programming it. Unless you are on the magenta line and know exactly where it will go when you change modes, hit HDG first. (a great reason to ALWAYS keep the HDG updated. When your on the home PFD screen, just push the left knob) Once you fully understand all the modes and know exactly where you are and where you just told it to go, then you can just punch away. I'm not there yet so to avoid the famous WTF moment, I select HDG and go merrily on my way. Once me and the autopilot agree on what I want, I reengage a NAV mode. Also, once you've selected an approach, either and instrument or SAP, make sure not to ignore the great big yellow EXECUTE button, or you'll get another WTF moment when it doesn't start flying the approach. Another way to say that is, don't EXECUTE the approach until you're ready for the plane to actually fly what's programmed.

As to the manuals, they are coming fast and furious from Katie. She's doing a great job of getting the info out. Be sure to check the GRT site and look for the New Features and Documents. Lot's of great stuff coming out. I've found that just about everything I wanted to know was already in the manuals, but the new sections she's putting out make it so much easier to find.
 
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Jay,

Glad your HXr is working for you.

As you have discovered, your HXr can select, using it's buttons, either the GRT GPS or your Garmin GPS as it's GPS source.

You will probably find that the source select switch you installed allows your TT AP to use either your HXr or your Garmin GPS for it's steering source. At least that is the intention of GRT's installation diagrams WD-1007-01 and WD-1008-00. This gives your AP a GPS source in case the HXr should fail.

At one time there was some software that would allow a GRT EFIS to interface with MS Flight Simulator and it worked pretty well. The problem is that you probably don't want to uninstall your HXr to take home and practice with it and even more so, you probably don't want to purchase a second HXr to keep at home:).

What would be a great solution would be for Redbird to develop interfaces for their simulator for each EFIS - one for GRT, AFS, Dynon and Garmin. The Redbird I have access to has two different panels. One is a six pack configuration with a GNS430 and the other is a G1000. I practiced on the six pack version to practice GNS430 procedures and then on the G1000 version to practice EFIS procedures which really didn't help much because of differences of the G1000 and GRT.

Jim Butcher
Europa XS
Dual GRT Sport EFIS
 
More on "EXECUTE"

RV8iator said:
Jay, you'll love it once you get used to it.

I've spent literally thousands of hours behind different panels with different autopilots and FMC's. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've heard, "what's it doing now". Watch the scoreboard and it will tell you what the A/P's doing. They are all different but once you get the hang of it you'll like it.

If I could give one piece of advice while using the GRT autopilot, it's -- put it in the heading mode while you're programming it. Unless you are on the magenta line and know exactly where it will go when you change modes, hit HDG first. (a great reason to ALWAYS keep the HDG updated. When your on the home PFD screen, just push the left knob) Once you fully understand all the modes and know exactly where you are and where you just told it to go, then you can just punch away. I'm not there yet so to avoid the famous WTF moment, I select HDG and go merrily on my way. Once me and the autopilot agree on what I want, I reengage a NAV mode. Also, once you've selected an approach, either and instrument or SAP, make sure not to ignore the great big yellow EXECUTE button, or you'll get another WTF moment when it doesn't start flying the approach. Another way to say that is, don't EXECUTE the approach until you're ready for the plane to actually fly what's programmed.

As to the manuals, they are coming fast and furious from Katie. She's doing a great job of getting the info out. Be sure to check the GRT site and look for the New Features and Documents. Lot's of great stuff coming out. I've found that just about everything I wanted to know was already in the manuals, but the new sections she's putting out make it so much easier to find.
Click to expand...

Per Jerry's note above, pay close attention to "EXECUTE" so as to not do it TOO SOON nor TOO LATE.

After being vectored around (in the HEADING mode Jerry mentioned), I wait until and precisely when, I heard the words "CLEARED for the XXX Approach", then I press the EXECUTE. Basically saying "your plane for the approach". Guidance from your "approach uidance source" is then used. That may be an SL30, a 430 or 650, Or it may be the GRT itself for the "Synthetic Approach (SAP)".

James
 
Like Widget, I fly so many different EFIS-equipped planes that I have developed the same simple survival technique - use "HDG" until you are sure you have the Nav doing what you want it to do - never let the autopilot drive unless you know what it is going to do.

It DOES take considerable time and practice to get good with a lot of this equipment, and when I jump between types of EFIS's, I simply try to keep it simple if my goal is to just fly the airplane. I, too, have wished for device-specific PC-based simulators, and think they'd be the cats-meow for getting good without burning a lot of 100LL - but they take a lot of man-hours to build, and the margins in the business aren't big enough for even the big dogs to do them without raising prices.

Practice, practice, practice - and I'll tell you that I have flown with numerous EFIS designers who have been demonstrating their systems to me and they have had those "oh, I didn't think it was going to do THAT!" moments.... so it happens to everyone.
 
BobTurner said:
Jay,

I'm sorry you are having difficulty, but, as the last post says, none of this is unconventional. "Exit" means exit that menu page. If you ask the autopilot to track the gps course, you cannot be surprised if it does that, even if you entered the course an hour ago. Why would you think it would go direct to your destination? Very capable autopilots are necessarily complex, and take practice and/or training to operate. I routinely check out pilots in the local flying club's 182 with a simple single axis autopilot, and they universely do not know how to use it. With a much more complex autopilot you must expect that it will take substantial effort to learn how to use it.
Also, you complain about the documentation, yet you asked a question ("How do I find my mode S address?") that is directly answered in the on line documentation. I know it's dry reading, but it is there and you really need to study it.

Bob
Click to expand...

What I have found frustrating is that you (and others) have provided links to specific (and wonderful) GRT tutorials that I was not able to find in the menu system of their website.

This link (http://www.grtavionics.com/manualshx.html) says that it is for all the Hxr manuals -- yet you guys have sent me links to great stuff that doesn't seem to be there. Am I missing something? Is there another menu tree showing ALL of their tutorials?

As with most guys (I suspect), I tend to learn better from doing than from reading manuals. That's why a PeeCee-based sim would be truly awesome. To be able to mess with this at home, beforehand, would be a huge enhancement.

Although, of course, every installation is different. For example, much of the manual I have read about autopilot use refers (quite naturally) to the GRT autopilot -- and I've got a TruTrack. Argh.

The more I delve into this, the more I understand why it's so difficult to create user manuals that make sense. With a system this complex, and so many possible variables, you'd have to create an "IF/THEN" chart a mile long! :)
 
jclark said:
Per Jerry's note above, pay close attention to "EXECUTE" so as to not do it TOO SOON nor TOO LATE.

After being vectored around (in the HEADING mode Jerry mentioned), I wait until and precisely when, I heard the words "CLEARED for the XXX Approach", then I press the EXECUTE. Basically saying "your plane for the approach". Guidance from your "approach uidance source" is then used. That may be an SL30, a 430 or 650, Or it may be the GRT itself for the "Synthetic Approach (SAP)".

James
Click to expand...

This is something I tried yesterday -- and it did not work.

I tried to execute the SAP approach to Rwy 13 at KTFP (McCampbell), here in South Texas. I programmed it in 25 miles out, and hit "Execute" immediately.

The autopilot flew me unerringly to the airport....and right over the center of it. And beyond. It never swung me out to capture the approach, although I could see the SAP approach's "white boxes" drawn in the sky a mile or two to the right.

Any clue what happened...or why?
 
BobTurner said:
Jay,

I'm sorry you are having difficulty, but, as the last post says, none of this is unconventional. "Exit" means exit that menu page. If you ask the autopilot to track the gps course, you cannot be surprised if it does that, even if you entered the course an hour ago.
Click to expand...

Well, once you understand what it's trying to do, everything makes perfect sense. lol

However, when I was initially testing the autopilot -- without any instruction, remember -- engaging it and having the plane fly AWAY from my programmed destination seemed to indicate a problem. Flying to the magenta line that was drawn from one airport to another 30 minutes ago makes sense...how?

Personally, I would rather have it fly to the destination that is programmed, not to some imaginary line that represented the proper course at the start of the flight. I'm sure there's a logic here, but it's escaping me.

Can you enlighten me? Why would a GPS/autopilot fly BACK to the magenta line (that might be 30 miles to your left), instead of "direct to" the programmed destination from your current position?
 
jjhoneck said:
Well, once you understand what it's trying to do, everything makes perfect sense. lol

However, when I was initially testing the autopilot -- without any instruction, remember -- engaging it and having the plane fly AWAY from my programmed destination seemed to indicate a problem. Flying to the magenta line that was drawn from one airport to another 30 minutes ago makes sense...how?

Personally, I would rather have it fly to the destination that is programmed, not to some imaginary line that represented the proper course at the start of the flight. I'm sure there's a logic here, but it's escaping me.

Can you enlighten me? Why would a GPS/autopilot fly BACK to the magenta line (that might be 30 miles to your left), instead of "direct to" the programmed destination from your current position?
Click to expand...

Lots of questions here..

If there was a magenta line anywhere except from you present position, you didn't have it "Programmed" to fly direct. You cannot just say go direct and then at any later time engage the autopilot and expect it to take you direct from you present position. The autopilot doesn't know where it is or where to start unless you tell it so.

As to the EXECUTE button in the post above. If you are outside of the parameters of it flying an approach and hit EXECUTE it has no idea where to go. You have to be in the CONE that the autopilot knows and then hit the button. I don't know of any autopilot that can be out in the weeds and tell it to fly an approach and it knows how to do it randomly. I hope this makes sense. Hitting the EXECUTE button 25 miles out if you're just going DIRECT to the airport will not work, as you found out. Position you airplane like ATC would vector you to and approach and then EXECUTE.

Keep the questions coming. So far it seems like the autopilot is doing what you are telling it to, just not what you expect it to do.
 
Jay, I feel your pain--------I went through most of the same stuff when I was learning to fly my GRT/TruTrak combo.

I agree that a PC based tutorial and simulator program would be wonderful------and as I have said many times in the past the old written documentation is sorely lacking, but Katie is doing a great job of updating things.

In case you have not yet discovered it, look for the symbol of a capital "D" with an arrow through it. It can be your friend :D-------whenever you have a waypoint (destination) loaded and you push the D/arrow, it will take you to the waypoint from your current location, if the A/P is in nav mode, not heading.

Does pushing in your right knob when in map screen cause a sweep line to come on?? turning the right knob sweeps the line to highlight any airport in the area------pushing the D/arrow will take you to the highlighted airport. Try it :D
 
RV8iator said:
Lots of questions here..

If there was a magenta line anywhere except from you present position, you didn't have it "Programmed" to fly direct. You cannot just say go direct and then at any later time engage the autopilot and expect it to take you direct from you present position. The autopilot doesn't know where it is or where to start unless you tell it so.

As to the EXECUTE button in the post above. If you are outside of the parameters of it flying an approach and hit EXECUTE it has no idea where to go. You have to be in the CONE that the autopilot knows and then hit the button. I don't know of any autopilot that can be out in the weeds and tell it to fly an approach and it knows how to do it randomly. I hope this makes sense. Hitting the EXECUTE button 25 miles out if you're just going DIRECT to the airport will not work, as you found out. Position you airplane like ATC would vector you to and approach and then EXECUTE.

Keep the questions coming. So far it seems like the autopilot is doing what you are telling it to, just not what you expect it to do.
Click to expand...

WRT to the synthetic approach capture, I suspected that I engaged it too soon, but now you've given me proof positive. Thanks!

As for your explanation of the behavior of the autopilot (flying back to the magenta line), I understand what it's doing -- but I did NOT tell my GPS to fly to "a course". I told it to fly to a DESTINATION.

What is the utility of making you push "Direct to" again, when it already knows the destination? There doesn't seem to be any utility in the GPS ordering the autopilot to fly back to a (now irrelevant) course line.

I'm sure there's a logic here, since you guys are telling me that this behavior is the norm for all GPS/autopilot combos. I'm just not getting why anyone would want it to behave this way?
 
Mike S said:
Jay, I feel your pain--------I went through most of the same stuff when I was learning to fly my GRT/TruTrak combo.

I agree that a PC based tutorial and simulator program would be wonderful------and as I have said many times in the past the old written documentation is sorely lacking, but Katie is doing a great job of updating things.

In case you have not yet discovered it, look for the symbol of a capital "D" with an arrow through it. It can be your friend :D-------whenever you have a waypoint (destination) loaded and you push the D/arrow, it will take you to the waypoint from your current location, if the A/P is in nav mode, not heading.

Does pushing in your right knob when in map screen cause a sweep line to come on?? turning the right knob sweeps the line to highlight any airport in the area------pushing the D/arrow will take you to the highlighted airport. Try it :D
Click to expand...

Thanks, Mike. That's exactly how I (finally) made the autopilot behave the way I wanted it to.

Just for giggles, here was the flight testing scenario that so confused me:

1. Program in the destination in the GRT before departure. In this case, to KTFP, nine miles West of here.

2. Depart KRAS, our island airport, and fly one island North, which is uninhabited. (A safer area for head-down button mashing!)

3. Now 10 miles North of the field, engage the autopilot -- and watch in horror as it turned me ~180 degrees around, and ~90 degrees AWAY from KTFP!

This seemed crazy, at the time, and made me believe that we had issues with the connection between the TruTrack and the GRT.

Another complicating matter was the fact that the good folks at GRT were telling me that I should see an "asterisk" (*) on the TruTrack if everything was connected properly. Later, we learned that this was in error -- on my model autopilot, the "plus sign" (+) was what we wanted to see. This further fed my delusion that we were experiencing a communication problem between the two units.

Knowing now that the GRT was simply ordering the TruTrack to fly BACK to the original magenta course line makes all this behavior logical -- but at the time it seemed to indicate a problem with the autopilot. This was further complicated by the fact that to engage it I had to hit "exit", not "enter". (Notwithstanding the comments, above, that mention an "enter" button that I apparently haven't seen!)

So, in the end I spent endless hours chasing a wiring and/or configuration problem that did not exist. :(

On the plus side -- I now really, REALLY know the connections and wiring harnesses in my panel. Literally one pin at a time, with a meter! :D
 
Let's talk....

jjhoneck said:
WRT to the synthetic approach capture, I suspected that I engaged it too soon, but now you've given me proof positive. Thanks!

As for your explanation of the behavior of the autopilot (flying back to the magenta line), I understand what it's doing -- but I did NOT tell my GPS to fly to "a course". I told it to fly to a DESTINATION.

What is the utility of making you push "Direct to" again, when it already knows the destination? There doesn't seem to be any utility in the GPS ordering the autopilot to fly back to a (now irrelevant) course line.

I'm sure there's a logic here, since you guys are telling me that this behavior is the norm for all GPS/autopilot combos. I'm just not getting why anyone would want it to behave this way?
Click to expand...

Jay,

If you PM or email me a phone number I will call in a few and cover some things that I cannot type out at the moment because of where I am. But I will be able to talk and cover several points.

James
803-238- two one one three
 
jjhoneck said:
-- but I did NOT tell my GPS to fly to "a course". I told it to fly to a DESTINATION.
Click to expand...

If you do direct to, your original course line disappears and you get a new course from your present position - direct to - your selected WP. All direct to does is draw a course from your current position. It does not continually update the start of the course line based on your currently changing position...if that makes sense...:D

jjhoneck said:
What is the utility of making you push "Direct to" again, when it already knows the destination? There doesn't seem to be any utility in the GPS ordering the autopilot to fly back to a (now irrelevant) course line. I'm sure there's a logic here, since you guys are telling me that this behavior is the norm for all GPS/autopilot combos. I'm just not getting why anyone would want it to behave this way?
Click to expand...

Perhaps it is irrelevant for your situation - just do another direct to, then - but it is not irrelevant to many. Say I want to deviate around a cell, but keep my original course and join it again (around a SUA perhaps). If it always updated from your current position, your new course line would always be changing and potentially now travel through an area you wish not to fly.

Sorry if none of this is coherent - perfectly understandable in my head:D:D
 
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