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Filled out my first NASA report yesterday

N546RV

Well Known Member
Short story: I may have inadvertantly slipped into the Atlanta class B. I didn't get a phone number or anything upon returning to PDK, so I imagine I'm probably OK. Still, there are lessons to be learned about complacency here.

The long version sort of starts about a year ago. My partner's nieces were in town, and she'd asked me if could take them up for a little sightseeing flight locally. I ended up calling that flight at the last minute because the winds were pretty stiff that day. Since then, I've wanted to take them up another time they were in town, and this weekend was the perfect time.

My plan for the flight was pretty simple: Take off, head over to Stone Mountain, run up to Lake Lanier, and then back home. A short local flight, and not really going anywhere I haven't gone plenty of times before. Well, sort of...while I've flown around Lanier and used it as a practice area frequently, I've never really specifically flown around Stone Mountain for sightseeing. Let's call this mild unfamiliarity factor #1.

Since, in my mind, I was just doing yet another casual local flight, my preflight planning was pretty light. I checked the weather/NOTAMS/TFRs and that was about it. Critically, what I didn't do was even a cursory review of the local sectional, to refresh my memory on the class B floors. This is especially important since the Atlanta class B was recently restructured, with many of the floors being lowered. I've flown a number of times since the change, but never anywhere where the airspace would be a problem. Let's call my failure to properly brief myself factor #2.

So, duly "prepared" for the flight, I met the girls at the airport, preflighted, got gas, and took off without incident. I climbed to 3500 MSL, a fairly typical altitude for local flying, while heading for Stone Mountain. I initially passed by the mountain on the north side, then started a gradual right turn, with the intent of flying a circle around the mountain to let them get a good view. During this time, I was mostly focusing on looking outside the airplane, and I was not being very disciplined about maintaining altitude. I drifted up to 3600 or so a few times. We can call this failure to maintain altitude factor #3.

So anyway, I continued my gradual turn around the mountain until I was on the south side. I was merrily flying along like this when I glanced down at the GPS and observed that I was right on a border line between class B sectors. I knew that the rectangular east-west sections like the one I was either close to or actually within laterally had increasingly lower floors. Because I hadn't briefed myself, I didn't know the floor of the sector I was possibly flying into. I vaguely recalled it being a 500-foot increment, but was it 3500 or 4500? Hopefully not 3500, as a quick glance at the altimeter had me up around 3600 again.

Unsure of whether I had just busted the airspace or not, I immediately turned north towards the area where I knew the floor was higher. I realized in that moment that my failure to brief myself was a huge problem. I thought that maybe the sector I was leaving was a 3500' floor, but I wasn't sure if I'd crossed it or not. But what about the sector north of that? What if I was still violating now, in a different sector? I didn't have the information. All I could really do was head north, clear the area, and hope I hadn't fouled up.

The rest of the flight went without incident. We saw some nice sights, headed back to PDK, and I made a quite lovely landing, in spite of having relatives watching and on board. Once I got back home, I confirmed that the sector I possibly entered had a 3500' floor. So if I really did cross the lateral boundary, then I definitively violated the airspace.

I'm not sure if I did cross the boundary. In the moment, when I looked at the GPS, my brain told me that I was south of the line. I don't know if that was an accurate interpretation or not. I didn't get the dreaded "I have a phone number for you" message from PDK controllers, so I suspect that I'm OK, but it still seemed prudent to do the ASRS form regardless, both as a way to cover myself and, much like writing this post, to tell a story of small mistakes combining into a bigger one.
 
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Good Job!

One...I'm thinking from looking at the map and from your description that you probably did just barely get into the 3500 foot floor of that sector.

Two...I'm thinking you did the right thing by filing the ASRS report.

Three...I'm thinking you will probably never hear anything from the authorities about this.

Four...I'm thinking you feel better that you have filed the report, slept on it one night, and have "confessed" it to your VAF brotherhood...and anyone else who may read this.

Five...I'm thinking you are a better pilot than you may have thought yesterday when you probably thought you were a dunce for not briefing yourself better.

Six...I'm thinking you need to go pound some rivets to make you feel better about yourself.

Congratulations, I think you gave your passengers a ride they'll never forget, and they probably didn't even know you were kicking yourself mentally on the way home. :)
 
Lessons we will all learn from

Phillip,
What a great post. Not only will this make you safer, your account will help all of us keep our eyes on the ball.
I live in Stone Mountain and would love to come see your project some time. You are also welcome in my shop, where I am trying to put the finishing touches on my 8A canopy.
 
Philip

Thanks for posting. This helps to remind me to prep for EVERY flight. Even those quick local ones that I have done many times before. A lesson learned and a good reminder to plan the flight and fly the plan.
 
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PDK is not for the faint of heart. Everything about that airport from it's proximity to ATL Class B to the crazy crossing runways and taxiways keeps you on your toes.

I'm not saying people should avoid it. They just need to prepare for it.

The OP is not the first person to mess up there.
 
PDK is not for the faint of heart. Everything about that airport from it's proximity to ATL Class B to the crazy crossing runways and taxiways keeps you on your toes.

I'm not saying people should avoid it. They just need to prepare for it.

The OP is not the first person to mess up there.

Another way to put this that reflects my experience might be: Just because you've done all your training at a busy airport in complex airspace, and you're quite comfortable there, doesn't change the fact that it's a busy airport and complex airspace.

Again, complacency.
 
It was you!

Your the one who set off my TCAS on 26R and caused a go-around. Tower was calling you on guard and I had to fill out company paperwork. Just kidding, you did the right thing. Also don't be to hard on yourself, everyone makes mistakes, after all you are human! You took the proper steps by recognizing and taking action. The odds of hearing something is slim and most ga aircraft keep on going through the approach coarse. For you to share your experience not only helps others avoid the same mistakes but shows your true character, one that the whole RV community should be **** proud of!
 
My first NASA report was because of the first flight of my RV-6.
I took off at Aero Country Airport (DFW class B floor is 4,000').
Not being used to the ROC of the RV, I was busy watching engine parameters when I suddenly realized that I was climbing through 5,200'.
This was on Saturday. The report went into the mail Monday morning.
That was in May of 1993. I think I can relax now.
 
My first NASA report was because of the first flight of my RV-6.
I took off at Aero Country Airport (DFW class B floor is 4,000').
Not being used to the ROC of the RV, I was busy watching engine parameters when I suddenly realized that I was climbing through 5,200'.
This was on Saturday. The report went into the mail Monday morning.
That was in May of 1993. I think I can relax now.

So what you're saying is that I should be able to relax some time in late 2033?

:p
 
slight thread drift

Your the one who set off my TCAS on 26R and caused a go-around!

this immediately makes me think of my 'home' field. It's in a valley, so anytime you are in the circuit, over hillside homes, you are probably breaking a dozen rules.
If tower requests you 'extend downwind' while a heavy is on a straight-in, you invariably have to 'cheat' on the circuit shape to stay clear of terrain, and/or climb.
....at least once, the heavy has complained that their TCAS was 'going crazy' on approach as i came into their cone of death & destruction!

I certainly don't want to make them do paperwork, or destabilize their approach...so what does a guy do? (certainly this happens all the time with training aircraft which are in the circuit constantly, not only he once a month I'm up there)
 
Thanks for sharing your story. It is a great reminder for us all that complacency does not discriminate based on hours or experience. My home field is a class D. It is surrounded by restricted areas on 3 sides, but I can climb at will. Below - KSMS - is where I have my RV during the week.

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Several times, when I first started commuting back and forth, I would be cruising right up to the outer shelf ceiling after a straight out departure to the NE thinking I had unlimited altitude like my home field. Luckily, I gathered my SA each time and never busted into the airspace, but that 1500 comes quickly in an RV. Departing SW is also unkind to complacency if you're in the habit of long upwinds.
 
Short story: I may have inadvertantly slipped into the Atlanta class B. I didn't get a phone number or anything upon returning to PDK, so I imagine I'm probably OK. Still, there are lessons to be learned about complacency here.

I had a similar "Oh shoot" moment near Atlanta several years ago.

My wife was out of town, so I went flying after work. It was one of those summer days where there were isolated, but substantial thunderstorms. I decided that I needed to climb to altitude and take some T-storm pictures.

Long story short, at some point I glanced at my GPS which showed that I was uncomfortably close to the top layer of Atlanta's airspace. Worse, with my maneuvering, there was no telling if I'd strayed slightly inside the airspace.

So upon landing, I did something forthright, but dumb. I got on the phone and called the appropriate number at Hartsfield to inquire. The supervisor I ultimately spoke with with was very nice, and said something like "We didn't have any airspace busts during that timeframe, but if you'd busted the airspace, you'd have known about it by the time you landed. You might even have had an escort."
 
Phillip,
You did the right thing by filing a NASA report. It's a CYA intended to permit others to learn from your mistakes. Thanks for that! We've all been there, or will be and filing a report will hopefully help others from doing the same thing. I almost did a similar thing today. I was heading home after buying some cheap gas and was taking pictures of my EFIS and GPS showing 207K across the ground. When I focused on my GPS, I saw I was extremely close to the Cincinnati Class B. I rolled to a 90 degree left bank and stepped on the left rudder (nobody on board but me). I sliced my way down to below 5000' (floor) before turning back on course.

Reading your post a day earlier may have been a good idea for me, but I fortunately missed the B. I was notified one time when landing at a field 200 miles away to call this number. It was Cincy, saying they think I had violated their Class B (I hadn't, and I could prove it with my EFIS memory). No crime, no foul, but the point is, they will contact you ASAP if you've broken their space.

I'm sure you're OK, but the NASA helps......
 
Thank you

Philip, thank you for sharing your story. Thankfully your mistake or possible mistake didn't result in any harm and after looking at the sectional closely you probably came within a mile or so from the airspace and might not have even gone in it. I fly around the ATL Class B airspace weekly and I'll tell you that ATL does not take it lightly when someone enters that airspace. As you know KATL is one of the busiest airports in the world so they really frown on people busting into their space. Last week I got "yelled" at by center for traveling towards class B airspace and "close to entering class B" (their words) while talking to them and waiting for a squawk code for flight following. I was flying out of KRYY and headed SW towards their new airspace and climbing while speaking to them and pretty much got chewed out for continuing my path towards to the airspace without being cleared... and I was watching it very closely not to enter it . So my point is that all is well and ends well but around these parts of ATL, they are very serious about the class B airspace. I appreciate you sharing your lessons learned here... I know I have taken off for a quick "local flight" before without really briefing myself each and every time on the important aspects of airspace. Sharing your story has not only made you a better pilot but certainly helps all of us be better. Thank you.
 
First, you did the right thing by fixing the problem and then filing the NASA report.

second, here is my take after 14 years of flying an airliner and flying in the system. If a controller sees a minor infraction, and 100 ft is minor as long as it is corrected, and it does not cause them any work moving somebody, they do not want the hassle anymore than you do. controllers for the most part want to do as little paper work as they have to ( i don't blame them, i'm he same way). don't sweat it, if there was no traffic around you chances are he didn't even see it and if he did it didn't cause him any problem and he just let it go after he saw you leave the airspace quickly.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
Philip, I appreciate you for posting this story, too. I have a related question. I don't know what kind of GPS you're using, but mine plots a track of every flight for later review. You can zoom out and zoom in and really see a lot of detail. This could have been used to check later on, to see if you busted the airspace. I'm curious whether or not you may have thought of looking at your flight track? Or does your GPS have that capability?
 
Philip, I appreciate you for posting this story, too. I have a related question. I don't know what kind of GPS you're using, but mine plots a track of every flight for later review. You can zoom out and zoom in and really see a lot of detail. This could have been used to check later on, to see if you busted the airspace. I'm curious whether or not you may have thought of looking at your flight track? Or does your GPS have that capability?

Hi Bruce,

I was flying a rented Archer with dual 430s. With it being a rental, I didn't even consider the possibility of grabbing the track. I'm not sure if it's possible with the 430 or not, but it would be interesting to see.
 
Too close?

I didn't realize that we could get too close. Living and flying under Class B for years and I've learned the hard way to stay away from the corners because a bunch of folks like to skirt the corners and the traffic count at any altitude around the corners and edges can be a frightening experience. However, I wasn't aware that ATC had a buffer or area that's considered close. I wonder what the general consensus is?

Last week I got "yelled" at by center for traveling towards class B airspace and "close to entering class B" (their words) while talking to them and waiting for a squawk code for flight following.
 
I once "skirted" the south side of a presidential TFR at Waco.
My track was carefully calculated to remain 5 miles outside of the TFR.

My #2 radio, on 121.5, woke up with a warning, "Two aircraft (at my location) you are about to enter a restricted area. Turn right 15° now."
We were a flight of 2. We immediately turned, but had we continued on course, we would still have cleared the TFR by at least 5 miles.

On the exact same, but opposite direction route earlier that day there was no "warning".

I did file a NASA report even though I don't think it was necessary.
 
A quick reminder for all our Australian VAF'ers... The AIP (ENR 1.1, 19.12) requires us to apply a 1NM tolerance (2NM by night) at low level increasing to 4NM/5NM above 5,000' to the flight path to avoid violating controlled airspace. That is, your intended flight path must not be closer than the specified distance to the control zone boundary, lest a 747 rise and smite thee.
 
I flew from FFC (just south of ATL) to Macon about a year back. Arriving at Macon I got quizzed on my current altitude and eventually asked to call ATL Approach after shutdown. I called and the guy at approach said I'd busted their Bravo. I said I hadn't, and around we went. Eventually, he said that 3 or 4 miles after my departure from FFC (to the east, under the 5k shelf) they had me at about 10.5k feet. I said "Really? I was showing 3000 or so you really think I climbed 10000 ft in a couple miles? You think maybe you had a radar error, or that I need to have my encoder or xpder checked out?" he allowed that that was more likely, but promised to put a sternly worded letter in my file, none the less. I just pulled the encoder and stayed out of the mode-c veil until I eventually took my plane down for it's panel rebuild. I should have done a NASA report, in retrospect.
 
I flew from FFC (just south of ATL) to Macon about a year back. Arriving at Macon I got quizzed on my current altitude and eventually asked to call ATL Approach after shutdown. I called and the guy at approach said I'd busted their Bravo. I said I hadn't, and around we went. Eventually, he said that 3 or 4 miles after my departure from FFC (to the east, under the 5k shelf) they had me at about 10.5k feet. I said "Really? I was showing 3000 or so you really think I climbed 10000 ft in a couple miles? You think maybe you had a radar error, or that I need to have my encoder or xpder checked out?" he allowed that that was more likely, but promised to put a sternly worded letter in my file, none the less. I just pulled the encoder and stayed out of the mode-c veil until I eventually took my plane down for it's panel rebuild. I should have done a NASA report, in retrospect.

Should have told him to pull the tapes and asked for a supervisors phone number, that would have been the end of it.
 
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