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IFR training question

Paul 5r4

Well Known Member
Recently I saw a video of a VFR guy stuck on top of a pretty benign looking cloud layer. He was handling it well and ATC was looking for a hole. So... I've been considering getting some IFR training. I'm not really interested in the rating but would like to become a little more.... really less.... afraid of an inadvertent cloud encounter. I have 1300 hrs and all of it VFR with very little hood time. If I ever HAD to to stay alive, I would like to become halfway proficient at handling an encounter with clouds.
My 7A is not IFR equipped/certified and doesn't have a heated pitot. With a VFR airplane can I get some actual instrument time with an instructor or am I limited to hood time only? Wondering what my options might be.

Thanks in advance!

EDITED here. Ok.... I understand the thoughts of the posts below, (and for the most part agree), however please answer the question.... can you get actual instrument time in a VFR airplane or would I maybe be forced to rent something.
 
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This concept makes any instrument rated pilot nervous to say the least. "Let's train to a level to where we're just comfortable enough to ...." Sorry, not what you wanted to hear, but what you're going to get.

"Heated pitot" isn't a requirement. Saddle up and get the rating. It is so completely worth it.

I've talked to so many VFR only pilots that just can't comprehend just how EASY full IFR competency can make things. Yeah, none of us are flying around thunder storms or icing, but short of that, IFR = Easy button. Quite quickly the conversation always degenerates to single engine vs. multi...
 
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A little bit of IFR training can lead to a false confidence. Staying proficient at IFR flying takes consistent practice under the hood, or in actual IMC. It can be very difficult to stay upright in IMC if you aren't current and practicing on a regular basis. The lack of a heated pitot/static is the least of your issues. Anything less than 100% currency, which should lead to proficiency, is extremely risky. My opinion
Bruce Estes
 
I was a VFR pilot for the last 28 years. I thought "why would I need a license to kill?" Well last year I worked hard and received my IFR rating. It was said before- it makes flights like pushing the "easy button". I can honestly say I fly much more VFR these days than ever before because of the rating. I feel safer because I know I am safer. I have very high personal minimums that I will never break. The controllers do a fantastic job with IFR traffic. If you're going to do it- go all the way.
 
What everyone else said.

I was recently on a flight that, had I been able to file IFR like normal, would have been a piece of cake. Instead we needed to go VFR and it turned into a bucket of armpits. Get the rating.
 
The answer you wanted

No, you cannot legally fly into IMC conditions if the aircraft is not properly equipped and certified for it.

No, it is not necessary to get a full instrument rating. And single pilot IFR in an RV can be quite challenging.

Yes, you should frequently get some hood time in your airplane so that you could save yourself in an emergency. You could also get some actual IMC time by renting a properly certified airplane with the guidance of an instructor.

No, you should not use that IFR training to embolden yourself so that you fly into conditions that could include unintended flight from VMC to IMC.

I am by no means trying to talk you out of getting an instrument rating. Any additional training can only make you a better pilot.

Be smart, be safe.
 
What, exactly, do you mean by a vfr airplane?
If you have the usual operating limits they say you must equip per FAR 91.205 for ifr operations. Do you mean you do not have that equipment? If so you may not fly in IMC. If you do meet the bare minimums of 91.205 most cfiis will consider that not enough to be safe - they will want some backups for actual imc.
So tell me what is in the panel, and I'll tell you if I would fly in actual IMC with you.
 
instruments

I have the Dynon D-100 and D-120 as well as the Dynon autopilot. Also a standard ASI and Altimeter. No VOR or ILS capabilities.
 
I have the Dynon D-100 and D-120 as well as the Dynon autopilot. Also a standard ASI and Altimeter. No VOR or ILS capabilities.

As others have said, your OPLIMS and 91.205 drives the requirements. Plus you need to comply with the 91.411 for the static system inspection, and although technically not required by regs for IFR, for practical reasons you also need a transponder and meet 91.413 for its inspection. Additionally, you need the navigation equipment suitable for the route being flown. In practical terms, this means you need either Nav radio with a CDI (or EFIS HSI) or an IFR GPS (preferably a WAAS box, TSO145/146, or you'll still need a Nav radio to compliment the GPS).

Having said that, you could log simulated instrument time (e.g. under the hood) in a VFR airplane, but you'd have to fly in VFR conditions and you'd need either a safety pilot or CFI to ride shotgun.
 
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As others have said, your airplane is not legal to fly in IMC without some sort of navigation ability. Beyond that, it appears you have no backups for attitude. While strictly speaking 91.205 does not require it, I will not fly in IMC where the failure of one box, one power source, or a bug in the pitot tube leaves prayer as the only option for a safe outcome.
By all means, get some hood time, either with a cfii (especially to start - you don't want to practice bad habits) and/or a safety pilot. A hood is semi-realistic in the day (shadows give you subtle clues) but quite realistic at night, if you can do that.
 
A couple folks, I think, came close to answering. I'm building, not flying much and not IFR rated either but agree with one response that any additional training you can get under the hood is good training.

If you find yourself inadvertently in IMC, it could save your bacon, along with ATC after you've declared an emergency.
 
A couple folks, I think, came close to answering. I'm building, not flying much and not IFR rated either but agree with one response that any additional training you can get under the hood is good training.

If you find yourself inadvertently in IMC, it could save your bacon, along with ATC after you've declared an emergency.

Although I'm all for more training, a few more hours of "hood" time doesn't cut it and could actually be more dangerous if it were to lead a pilot to believe they had skills they really didn't really possess. My advice is to either go all in and get the rating or steer clear of any potential conditions that might get you in trouble.

If you've never flown in IMC conditions you have no idea just how fast you can get into serious trouble. The pucker factor you'll experience cannot be duplicated in a sim or under the hood. My $.02....
 
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IFV in VFR Airplane

Also would like to encourage you to get the IFR ticket. Well worth it. Took me 9 months and $5k.

IFR requires the airplane to have certain equipment like 3 gyros. Standard 6 pack does that. EFIS doesn't, but with two EFIS and 2 separate AHRS probably satisfies intent.

IFR requires airplane to have Pitot/Static/Altimeter/Transponder check every two years from 0 to 20,000 feet. This is not the same as the VFR transponder check.

Two warnings: 1) loss of control in IMC can happen really fast. Be trained and practice. 2) if primary equipment fails #1 can happen really fast. Have a backup.

Finally, the new EFIS with terrain avoidance and highway in the sky, and synthetic vision give seemingly idiot proof ways to avoid the ground. Don't believe it. They are just backup and supportive things to aid situational awareness. Get the real equipment. An IFR certified GPS is a solid solution, way more durable and reliable than an ipad. (Way more costly too).

Happy Flying
 
IFR

Thanks to everyone for their posts. I wouldn't mind having my IFR ticket at all but circumstances won't allow it at this time or in the near future. Perhaps I should have explained my intentions better. I hope to avoid that panicky feeling if I ever ended up IFR somehow. With some hood time, even if I get comfortable there is no way I personally would push it to the edge.... just not my nature... however in the event it happened I hope to be able to handle myself. Again, thanks for the input guys.
 
I have only been a licensed pilot for 50 years, but my opinion is a bit different than others have expressed. I have no desire to be IFR rated or fly IFR, but one time my "playing IMC with a hood and safety pilot practice" certainly saved my butt and my plane when I realized I had flown slowly into less and less visibility. To be able to calmly and proficiently get to clear sky was worth all the practice and then some. Back when I got a license, it was in fact part of the training to fly under the hood, I guess it is no longer the case. To give advice to not even practice for such an event seems wrong to me.
 
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Currently private pilot applicants need to have 3 hours of hood time. I think it's a good thing, but understand that it may encourage some to attempt things beyond their skill level.
 
Currently private pilot applicants need to have 3 hours of hood time. I think it's a good thing, but understand that it may encourage some to attempt things beyond their skill level.

Then again, it may convince the inexperienced pilot just how important it is to stay away from IMC conditions! Personally, I think any training is good training. Anyone could fly into less than ideal conditions at some point. A little instrument flying training (hood time) will help get them out.

If you think you can build a house just because you've got a hammer I your tool bag, that's not the hammer's fault. It's just a tool to be used by someone who knows how to use it and it's limitations.

Bevan
 
Auto-Pilot

Here's a different approach to your "problem": install the Dynon A/P servos and AP-74 control head. You can drive it from a used Aera or even GPSMAP portable GPS and have confidence that, if you ever end up VFR into IMC, you can engage the A/P to keep you level and declare an emergency to get out of trouble. EDIT: I just caught that you DO have the autopilot already! Then just add the GPS if you have not already and you have a good safety-belt.

I, like most of the other posts, would encourage you to go for some IFR training and I agree that any training is a good thing as it will give you insight into just how disorienting it can be to lose your horizon when you don't expect it. And, you may catch the IFR "bug" and want to get the rating.

But, my opinion, the cheapest insurance you can buy for inadvertent VFR into IFR is an autopilot that you know how to use. Dynon's is great. I have it in the RV-6 and love it.
 
Although I'm all for more training, a few more hours of "hood" time doesn't cut it and could actually be more dangerous if it were to lead a pilot to believe they had skills they really didn't really possess. My advice is to either go all in and get the rating or steer clear of any potential conditions that might get you in trouble.

If you've never flown in IMC conditions you have no idea just how fast you can get into serious trouble. The pucker factor you'll experience cannot be duplicated in a sim or under the hood. My $.02....

I very strongly agree with this statement.

I started IFR training this past August. Early October I had my first opportunity to fly actual IMC with my instructor. My first comment upon entering the clouds was (with racing heart), "this is nothing like the foggles." With a laugh my instructor said, "that's why I get my students in the clouds as soon as possible." Upon landing (first approach down to minimums) my thought was, "there's just no way a VFR only pilot can survive that." My very next thought was, "it's going to take me a lot more than the required 35 hours of hood time to do this safely."
 
Be careful!

Ive got 2500hrs of VFR float flying on the west coast of canada and another 2000hrs of IFR flying in a beech 1900 in the same area. I can tell you a certainly had a few scares flying VFR when the weather closed in on me. To be honest, I dont feel that having an IFR rating would have made me any more comphortable in those scenarios. By the time I was caught out, I was way too low or close or terrain to dream of going full on into cloud. (Especially as I was untrained in IFR at the time). For me, getting the rating and flying it commercially every day was really an eye opener as to why its a skill that needs to be kept very current, and limits, both VFR and IFR, are there for a reason.

As with everyone else, I agree that adding a FULL IFR rating to your license would be an excellent addition, but without an IFR capable aircraft you must be extreemly careful and don't get in any conditions you wouldn't go into without the rating.

Being that we all fly RV's for fun, we have the luxury of being able to pick and choose the days that we fly. I'm certainly more inclined to lay back and crack a beer instead of being up there wishing I wasn't!

Alex
 
I'll take a different approach here... because I don't agree with a bunch of the comments. Others are worried that getting more hood time without the IFR ticket will make you reckless and give you false hope. I would argue that if that were the case, I'd treat my engine like **** because I've done lots of simulated engine out landings and don't care if it fails in flight.

The bottom line is, of course, having more instrument training, even if its under the hood can increase your chances of surviving inadvertent VFR into IMC flight. Obviously, you don't want to do it, but at least if you're a little more prepared, it could help.

If your aircraft isn't IFR capable, why not go with someone who has one that is? I routinely go fly approaches on crappy days. I'd have no problem taking someone along to get some experience. Heck - maybe if you went up in IFR conditions it would scare you to death and you would never even think about taking off if the weather was anything but perfect.

My $0.02 - your mileage may vary.
 
I too need to finish my IR, one example of what my first IMC was comparable to, was imagine driving down the highway full throttle 120 MPH in pitch black dark and then turn the headlights off! you cant see where you are going, but you are still going real fast! :eek:
 
If your aircraft isn't IFR capable, why not go with someone who has one that is? I routinely go fly approaches on crappy days. I'd have no problem taking someone along to get some experience. Heck - maybe if you went up in IFR conditions it would scare you to death and you would never even think about taking off if the weather was anything but perfect.

This is a great idea. Seeing what 200' and 3/4 mile visibility looks like at DH is an eye opener for sure. As is seeing a solid undercast as far as the eye can see for two hours - sometimes that hole is gonna be *really* far away.

Having an Envoy flight ask approach control "Do you think we'll be able to make it in?" and them reply "There's a homebuilt that's done several approaches without any issues already" is a bonus :)
 
There's another aspect that hasn't been touched on -- IFR can be satisfying, whether actual or practice. Other styles of flying are cross country, fly ins, sight seeing , aerobatics, handling qualities evaluation, and high skill level practice. Don't limit yourself - there's rewards in all these arenas. Be excellent in all of them.

In my old RV-4, an ideal flight had 3Gs, inverted, and an ILS.

Ed
 
My thoughts on this:

1. If you're considering renting, think of what the total hours will cost to get you feeling "competent" in this mode of flight.

2. If you're going to spend time in IMC or under the hood, it might as well be done with the thought in mind that you're going to take an instrument check ride at the end of it.

3. If you don't regularly practice under the hood or in IMC after your instrument rating, you won't really be competent for very long. After I got my instrument rating I didn't fly in IMC for several months, and when I finally did, I was surprised at how it felt. I make it a point to fly with an instructor regularly in IMC or under the hood to maintain competency as well as currency.

4. Think about the cost of the rental aircraft and compare what it would take to upgrade your own bird to meet the FARs governing IFR flight. I bet you can get 'er up to snuff for a comparable amount to the rental.
 
Insurance

Not sure if its the same south of the border, But in Canada I believe in Canada there is a significant savings on insurance for instrument rated pilots. So over time you will wind up paying off the cost of extra training anyways.

I agree with the previous comment of IFR being satisfiying- nothing feels better than seeing the runway lights at minimums and greasing it on!

Alex
 
Also would like to encourage you to get the IFR ticket. Well worth it. Took me 9 months and $5k.

IFR requires the airplane to have certain equipment like 3 gyros. Standard 6 pack does that. EFIS doesn't, but with two EFIS and 2 separate AHRS probably satisfies intent.

IFR requires airplane to have Pitot/Static/Altimeter/Transponder check every two years from 0 to 20,000 feet. This is not the same as the VFR transponder check.

Two warnings: 1) loss of control in IMC can happen really fast. Be trained and practice. 2) if primary equipment fails #1 can happen really fast. Have a backup.

Finally, the new EFIS with terrain avoidance and highway in the sky, and synthetic vision give seemingly idiot proof ways to avoid the ground. Don't believe it. They are just backup and supportive things to aid situational awareness. Get the real equipment. An IFR certified GPS is a solid solution, way more durable and reliable than an ipad. (Way more costly too).

Happy Flying


You wanna have 3 AHARS, not 2. If one goes bad, you don't know which one it is. With 3 AHARS, now you've got a tie breaker. (Got this from one of the Team Aerodynamix guys)
 
IFR Training Question

Additional training is never bad - particularly in a field like aviation. If nothing else, IFR training will make you a better, more precise, pilot. You will learn to 'fly by the numbers' and truly understand what that means.

I've been flying IFR since 1987. Well before GPS when it was all about VOR, ILS, and NDB. Learned in a C172 and thought I had died and gone to heaven when I was flying my HSI and autopilot equipped Bonanza. Today the equipment is far better giving you much more complete situational awareness and capabilities.

It does not take much to make your RV IFR-equipped, either equipment or money. I started with a VFR ship and within a couple years added more equipment to make it IFR capable. My RV-9A is equipped as follows:

Dynon D10 (primary flight instrument)
Dynon D10A (primary HSI and standby flight instrument)-added later
Narco 122 VOR/LOC/GLIDESLOPE Receiver
King KLN-90B IFR GPS
Annunciator Panel (tied to the GPS)
Dynon Heated Pitot
Trutrak Autopilot (necessary for single pilot operations - my opinion)

I've been flying this bird a bit more than 10 years so the avionics are a bit dated but they still work flawlessly. I have routinely flown ILS approaches down to minimums at Paine Field and regularly see 400 to 600 feet in the Portland area.

RVs (at least the -9) are stable airplanes. They go down the glideslope like they are on rails. They are great getting into and out of weathered in airports and flying between layers or on VFR on top enroute which is normally the case for me.

The non-WAAS GPS makes all approaches non-precision which just means a slightly higher minimum decent altitude. Normally plenty high enough for me.

The ILS gets me down to minimums at any significant airport.

I'll second the earlier opinion that IFR=Easy. You get your route, they clear the airspace, you follow their instruction. You never get lost if you shoot the approach - it takes you right to the runway threshold.

The hardest thing about IFR is staying current with the 'system' and procedures.

Keith
N355RV
RV-9A
 
You wanna have 3 AHARS, not 2. If one goes bad, you don't know which one it is. With 3 AHARS, now you've got a tie breaker. (Got this from one of the Team Aerodynamix guys)

In practice you will know. Digital is not like analog - either it works or it does not work. An ADHARS failure will be obvious and if you are using one of the more mainstream EFIS systems it will tell you what is going on.

All that said, odds of an ADHARS failure (other than infant mortality) is quite low.

Carl
 
In practice you will know. Digital is not like analog - either it works or it does not work. An ADHARS failure will be obvious and if you are using one of the more mainstream EFIS systems it will tell you what is going on.


Carl

I very much disagree. It may be obvious - or maybe not. Take a Dynon EFIS and partially plug the pitot tube (or block it completely with the GPS also off) and it will slowly lose its sense of where the horizon is, similar to a vacuum gyro after a pump failure.
 
I very much disagree. It may be obvious - or maybe not. Take a Dynon EFIS and partially plug the pitot tube (or block it completely with the GPS also off) and it will slowly lose its sense of where the horizon is, similar to a vacuum gyro after a pump failure.

Yep - so your example is multiple, simultaneous failures. I offer that odds of that happening are minisule compared to a vacuum pump failure.

I stick to my original point, the increase in reliability between a dual ADHARS vs a triple ADHARS EFIS system is tiny. That said, any modern EFIS system is far superior to legacy IFR for reliability.

Carl
 
Yep - so your example is multiple, simultaneous failures. I offer that odds of that happening are minisule compared to a vacuum pump failure.

I stick to my original point, the increase in reliability between a dual ADHARS vs a triple ADHARS EFIS system is tiny. That said, any modern EFIS system is far superior to legacy IFR for reliability.

Carl

Actually, a single failure - a partially obstructed pitot tube - was reported right here on VAF. Apparently it was bad enough to lose the horizon, but not bad enough to trip a switch over to GPS data.
Of course not every manufacturer's efis needs airspeed or GPS to generate a horizon.
I certainly agree that nearly any efis is better than a dry vacuum pump.
 
Actually, a single failure - a partially obstructed pitot tube - was reported right here on VAF. Apparently it was bad enough to lose the horizon, but not bad enough to trip a switch over to GPS data.
Of course not every manufacturer's efis needs airspeed or GPS to generate a horizon.
I certainly agree that nearly any efis is better than a dry vacuum pump.

IMO that's why it's critical to understand the failure modes of your equipment (and they differ from brand to brand) and understand how to fly with and practice the various failures.

In my own plane I have a single AHRS feeding my 2-screen EFIS but I do have an independent backup PFD plus an independent A/P so I'm comfortable with that level of redundancy. It doesn't hurt that I received my IR flying behind glass in the first place.
 
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