Van's Air Force
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Advance Efis vs. Dynon
- Thread starter EWH22
- Start date
RVbySDI
Well Known Member
Also looking at EFIS
I was at Oshkosh looking at the different EFIS instruments. I know everyone has their opinions of these instruments but I would also be interested in what anyone has to say about the various companies and their products. For those who are currently using the various systems, can you mention some of the pro's and con's of your system that you have discovered since you started flying with the instruments?
I was at Oshkosh looking at the different EFIS instruments. I know everyone has their opinions of these instruments but I would also be interested in what anyone has to say about the various companies and their products. For those who are currently using the various systems, can you mention some of the pro's and con's of your system that you have discovered since you started flying with the instruments?
Davepar
Well Known Member
From my limited personal experience and from what I have read here on the forum and elsewhere, Advanced Flight Systems, Dynon, and Grand Rapids (alphabetical order 
) all have great customer service.
I was thinking yesterday that someone should make a big feature matrix. With Dynon's and GRT's recent software updates, it's getting harder to tell who has which features.
) all have great customer service.I was thinking yesterday that someone should make a big feature matrix. With Dynon's and GRT's recent software updates, it's getting harder to tell who has which features.
Capflyer
Well Known Member
Advanced-Flight-Systems
I recently went through this same decision making process but decided to go with the AFS system. It does more than the Dynon, has a larger and brighter screen, much faster processor that is ready for future upgrades and updates, SD card slot on the front, proven engine monitor, an HSI presentation, W&B screen, checklists, audible warnings, ability to work with nav/comm, and a dial that makes cycling through screens and inputs much faster and easier. Each of my two screens will have their own AHRS and battery back-up. I'm teaming them up with a GNS-480 and SL40 for full IFR capability. I spoke with Rob Hickman both over the phone and again at Oshkosh. He is determined to make his system the best and is already working on many upgrades. I was impressed that he listened to some of the features that I thought would be good additions such as adding a timer.
If you went by Stein's both at Oshkosh, my panel was the one displayed with the AFS EFISs.
I recently went through this same decision making process but decided to go with the AFS system. It does more than the Dynon, has a larger and brighter screen, much faster processor that is ready for future upgrades and updates, SD card slot on the front, proven engine monitor, an HSI presentation, W&B screen, checklists, audible warnings, ability to work with nav/comm, and a dial that makes cycling through screens and inputs much faster and easier. Each of my two screens will have their own AHRS and battery back-up. I'm teaming them up with a GNS-480 and SL40 for full IFR capability. I spoke with Rob Hickman both over the phone and again at Oshkosh. He is determined to make his system the best and is already working on many upgrades. I was impressed that he listened to some of the features that I thought would be good additions such as adding a timer.
If you went by Stein's both at Oshkosh, my panel was the one displayed with the AFS EFISs.
I'm probably a year away from ordering, but my tentative plan is to get one AFS screen and one GRT screen. I like the engine monitor of the AFS, and I like the ability to display weather and the integrated moving map etc on the GRT. Also, I'll have two separate systems for redundancy. Not sure yet how I'll arrange them or which will be on top.
T.
T.
lucaberta
Active Member
Mike,
I will have a much simpler setup, definitely not IFR, but am planning to hook an AF-3400 to a Garmin 296 (don't need the 396/496 as we don't have XM here in Europe) and an SL30.
I also had long chats with Ken and Dave from AFS at Oshkosh, and discussed at great lenghts the setup I could have in my Rotax 912-powered Pipistrel Virus, and decided to leave my name on an order for an AF-3400. And they did not ask any money for the order, contrary to what others seem to be doing...
Ciao, Luca
you quite nicely summarized the same things that convinced me toward the AFS product versus Dynon and GRT. And seeing your panel at Stein's last week in OSH was also a big deal breaker...Capflyer said:
I will have a much simpler setup, definitely not IFR, but am planning to hook an AF-3400 to a Garmin 296 (don't need the 396/496 as we don't have XM here in Europe) and an SL30.
I also had long chats with Ken and Dave from AFS at Oshkosh, and discussed at great lenghts the setup I could have in my Rotax 912-powered Pipistrel Virus, and decided to leave my name on an order for an AF-3400. And they did not ask any money for the order, contrary to what others seem to be doing...
Ciao, Luca
RV7Factory
Chief Obfuscation Officer
Mike's Panel
Here you go Mike. I am a long ways away from needing any of this, but if I had to do it today, it would be a very similar set-up to yours.
Here you go Mike. I am a long ways away from needing any of this, but if I had to do it today, it would be a very similar set-up to yours.
I don't want to make this a sales thread, but I would like to clear up some bits of information from the posts above:
1) Dynon has a brighter screen than the AFS units. We offer our large screen in 800 and 400 nits options, while the AFS screens are 600 nits for the smaller screen and 500 nits for the larger screen.
2) We've been selling our engine monitor for almost two years now, which makes it pretty proven as well. 6 cylinder engine monitors don't cost more from us, and we don't sell our sensors at a markup. We are adding trim, flaps, MPG, range, and a bunch of other stuff to our EMS, all with a free software update.
3) We have an HSI with SL30 and GPS support as well
4) We have checklists
5) We have audible warnings
6) We have single button screen switching
7) We've had timers since the day we released, and we just improved them in the latest update.
8) We support multiple AHRS units and battery backup as well.
Just want people to have accurate information before they make their decision. We would also ask people to look at price when making their comparisons, as the Dynon solutions generally cost thousands of dollars less than the competition. We also have a proven track record with thousands of flying EFIS ane EMS units, and we can ship you one the next day.
Good luck deciding between all of the options, and safe flying to all.
--Dynon
1) Dynon has a brighter screen than the AFS units. We offer our large screen in 800 and 400 nits options, while the AFS screens are 600 nits for the smaller screen and 500 nits for the larger screen.
2) We've been selling our engine monitor for almost two years now, which makes it pretty proven as well. 6 cylinder engine monitors don't cost more from us, and we don't sell our sensors at a markup. We are adding trim, flaps, MPG, range, and a bunch of other stuff to our EMS, all with a free software update.
3) We have an HSI with SL30 and GPS support as well
4) We have checklists
5) We have audible warnings
6) We have single button screen switching
7) We've had timers since the day we released, and we just improved them in the latest update.
8) We support multiple AHRS units and battery backup as well.
Just want people to have accurate information before they make their decision. We would also ask people to look at price when making their comparisons, as the Dynon solutions generally cost thousands of dollars less than the competition. We also have a proven track record with thousands of flying EFIS ane EMS units, and we can ship you one the next day.
Good luck deciding between all of the options, and safe flying to all.
--Dynon
Davepar
Well Known Member
Mike- Really nice, clean panel. What are the 3 things (LEDs?) on the far left?
My story is that I was sold on the Dynon D100 initially. When the AFS units were announced, I liked their ability to display the CDI and AOA on the screen and have always preferred their EMS display layout to the others. I made the switch. Now that Dynon had added some features, it would be a tough choice.
Including the Garmin GNS430 GPS? Unless you have an ARINC input or converter, I'd add "(for some models)" in there.
My story is that I was sold on the Dynon D100 initially. When the AFS units were announced, I liked their ability to display the CDI and AOA on the screen and have always preferred their EMS display layout to the others. I made the switch. Now that Dynon had added some features, it would be a tough choice.
We support the GPS serial output from the 430/530, but not the ARINC 429 (yet). This means we can do an HSI from the 430/530 GPS side, but not the NAV radio side. This is the same capibility as the AFS systems, assuming that they have programmed 430 / 530 serial support (the serial stream is different from other Garmin units). I don't think AFS has ARINC 429 or analog resolver support at this time.
We have had AoA on the EFIS screen for years, at a price of under $200 since you don't need to buy or make a pitot when you buy that option. We have audio output for the AoA as well.
We have had AoA on the EFIS screen for years, at a price of under $200 since you don't need to buy or make a pitot when you buy that option. We have audio output for the AoA as well.
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vlittle
Well Known Member
To all of the manufacturers of EFIS systems who are monitoring this thread:
I'm not a big fan of 'all-in-wonder' units. It would be nice to be able to purchase 3" or 2" units with high resolution LCD backlit displays that excelled at one thing (or related things).
For example, I'd love to have a 3" round electronic instruments that would directly replace the old 6-pack type instruments for new installations or retrofits.
For example a 'horizontal' unit (HSI, map), an attitude unit (AI), an ASI unit (airspeed, VSI, AOA) and so on... priced at about $300 each. All of them would have programmable voice alerts and (optional) internal backup batteries. A multidrop serial bus would communicate between them and allow firmware updates.
Now, when any one of them fails, you don't have an emergency.
Right now, with all-in-one boxes, you need two of them for backup and a redundant electrical system.
Color picture phones are giving us the high resolution, low cost display technology we need for this. Common mechanical designs can lower costs, and allow rapid product introduction.
I know this is going the opposite way from 'glass cockpits', but I think there may be a sizable population out there who would prefer a distributed instrument approach.
Many of you will not agree with my opinions, but at least one manufacturer (TruTrak) is following along this path of discrete instrumentation.
Vern Little 9A
I'm not a big fan of 'all-in-wonder' units. It would be nice to be able to purchase 3" or 2" units with high resolution LCD backlit displays that excelled at one thing (or related things).
For example, I'd love to have a 3" round electronic instruments that would directly replace the old 6-pack type instruments for new installations or retrofits.
For example a 'horizontal' unit (HSI, map), an attitude unit (AI), an ASI unit (airspeed, VSI, AOA) and so on... priced at about $300 each. All of them would have programmable voice alerts and (optional) internal backup batteries. A multidrop serial bus would communicate between them and allow firmware updates.
Now, when any one of them fails, you don't have an emergency.
Right now, with all-in-one boxes, you need two of them for backup and a redundant electrical system.
Color picture phones are giving us the high resolution, low cost display technology we need for this. Common mechanical designs can lower costs, and allow rapid product introduction.
I know this is going the opposite way from 'glass cockpits', but I think there may be a sizable population out there who would prefer a distributed instrument approach.
Many of you will not agree with my opinions, but at least one manufacturer (TruTrak) is following along this path of discrete instrumentation.
Vern Little 9A
Radomir
Well Known Member
Vern, I seriously doubt that is where the market is heading... people want big, bright screens! Also, hardware cost etc considered -- I don't think they'll make these individual units at 300 a piece (any time soon).
I'll just sit back and watch them up one another.. it's good for us, consumers.
I'll just sit back and watch them up one another.. it's good for us, consumers.
Capflyer
Well Known Member
3 Lights
As you can probably see from my panel picture the lables still need to be applied. The three lights are from the Gretz heated pitot tube. There is a temperature sensor built in so you have the option of keeping the pitot tube on automatic instead of only on or off. The lights are announciator lights to let you know its status.
As you can probably see from my panel picture the lables still need to be applied. The three lights are from the Gretz heated pitot tube. There is a temperature sensor built in so you have the option of keeping the pitot tube on automatic instead of only on or off. The lights are announciator lights to let you know its status.
Vern, it's a volume issue. When you only buy 2,500 screens at a time, you can't buy them for $5 like a cell phone manufacturer can. If we could sell 1M units a year, the prices would be much, much lower.
The other issue is the artificial horizon. You can't do AH without a couple very expensive sensors. These sensors end up giving you ASI, turn rate, heading, G-meter, etc. The AI unit will always be the most expensive one, and we'd just be hiding info from you if we only gave you the horizon on this product.
Once you have what you need to make a product- processor, screen, power supply, memory, digitizer, case, and connectors- the cost of adding a altimeter sensor is basically zero. Suddenly you have a full bore EFIS.
Look at our EMS-D10 engine monitor. It has no sensors inside, just some basic signal conditioning. The $1700 for the EMS-D10 is basically the cheapest that we can currently sell hardware. The only thing we could really save on is screen cost, but that won't get you down to $300. We could do what you want, but you'd have to buy 6+ $1700 bits. It really is cheapest to manufacture / buy two or three EFIS units for redundancy than it is to break everything up.
TruTrak is sort of doing this, but they don't make artifical horizons so their sensor costs are much lower, and their price is nowhere near $300 for anything with a color screen on it.
Future technologies might make this more feasible, but without a serious increase in volume in these markets, I don't think you'll see a big decrease in price.
The other issue is the artificial horizon. You can't do AH without a couple very expensive sensors. These sensors end up giving you ASI, turn rate, heading, G-meter, etc. The AI unit will always be the most expensive one, and we'd just be hiding info from you if we only gave you the horizon on this product.
Once you have what you need to make a product- processor, screen, power supply, memory, digitizer, case, and connectors- the cost of adding a altimeter sensor is basically zero. Suddenly you have a full bore EFIS.
Look at our EMS-D10 engine monitor. It has no sensors inside, just some basic signal conditioning. The $1700 for the EMS-D10 is basically the cheapest that we can currently sell hardware. The only thing we could really save on is screen cost, but that won't get you down to $300. We could do what you want, but you'd have to buy 6+ $1700 bits. It really is cheapest to manufacture / buy two or three EFIS units for redundancy than it is to break everything up.
TruTrak is sort of doing this, but they don't make artifical horizons so their sensor costs are much lower, and their price is nowhere near $300 for anything with a color screen on it.
Future technologies might make this more feasible, but without a serious increase in volume in these markets, I don't think you'll see a big decrease in price.
Davepar
Well Known Member
I think the GNS430 serial output is only enough for a CDI. There's no glide slope info. Doesn't an HSI typically display that? It's really unfortunate that the serial stream from the 430 is so hobbled.dynonsupport said:
True. I sense a good-sized market for an ARINC 429 to serial converter.
But still no heated AOA pitot. BTW, you can delete my 2004 order for one of those.
Sorry to nit-pick, but trying to keep all the features straight has been confusing to say the least. It's great that you've added so many firmware features.
One other thing I forgot, is that I like using a knob versus buttons for setting the altimeter and course. Selecting the heading on the CDI/HSI with buttons is not ideal.
That's what I thought. Looks great. I've got one of those as well that I need to mount. I'm considering cutting the LEDs from the board and soldering the resistors and leads as needed. That'll allow more flexibility in mounting them.Capflyer said:
vlittle
Well Known Member
dynonsupport said:
I know... been there, done that.
FYI, My uncle was a fighter pilot jet jockey, and he became famous for human factor studies of cockpits (before anyone had given a name to it).
He was of the opinion that certain instruments should always be discrete, and not combined with others. He also believed that some analog displays were better than digital. It all came down to battlefield stress situations, information overload and human behaviour. He also saw the value in heads-up dislay 'EFIS' systems for the same reason.
My personal (and not necessarily correct) opinion is that the 'all-in-wonder' boxes pack so many features into them for competitive and cost reasons, not because it's the best way to display the data.
Of course, we are not flying around in battlefield situations in our RVs, so human factors aren't quite as critical.
It's kind of funny, but I like the idea of a big EFIS screen with virtual representations of a six pack of discrete instruments... reminds me of the old 172's I trained on! Some virtual toggle switches, OBS dials and we're good to go... like MS flight simulator
.Anyway, enough of my contrarian opinions... you can't fight progress!
Vern
AntiGravity
Well Known Member
Backup guages
I know nothing about panels yet, but I'm tentatively planning on going EFIS - EMS - GPS with some 2?" standard analog guages as backup if I have the space (and if not, I'll find some!). Core instruments mainly; airspeed, altimeter, etc, etc. Not sure yet, since I don't have much experience and don't know what I would need in an 'EFIS-out' situation!
Cheers,
I know nothing about panels yet, but I'm tentatively planning on going EFIS - EMS - GPS with some 2?" standard analog guages as backup if I have the space (and if not, I'll find some!). Core instruments mainly; airspeed, altimeter, etc, etc. Not sure yet, since I don't have much experience and don't know what I would need in an 'EFIS-out' situation!
Cheers,
Just made this decision a few weeks ago. My decision was mostly based on cost vs. function. All three of the manufacturers (Dynon, GRT and AFS) have great products making if difficult to decide on looks alone. So I put together a simple spreadsheet. When you look only at the basic unit functions and add the necessary engine probes etc., it makes the decission a little bit easier. Based on a two screen system with full engine monitoring capability including fuel flow, the Dynon combo (D100-D120) came in at about $1000 less than the Sport and ~$2000 less than the AFS.
I know some have more features and all that but, for simple VFR fun flying the Dynon seems to be the choice (at least for me).
Totals:
Dynon (D100-D120) $5,420.00
Dual Sport pkg $6,758.00*
AFS3400 series $7,420.00
Dual GRT Horizon pkg $9,515.00
* Internal GPS option $400 included
I know some have more features and all that but, for simple VFR fun flying the Dynon seems to be the choice (at least for me).
Totals:
Dynon (D100-D120) $5,420.00
Dual Sport pkg $6,758.00*
AFS3400 series $7,420.00
Dual GRT Horizon pkg $9,515.00
* Internal GPS option $400 included
Captain_John
Well Known Member
Dynon, thanks for chiming in!
One item:
I want a heated pitot. I know it isn't necessary on a VFR machine. I just want it.
CJ
One item:
I want a heated pitot. I know it isn't necessary on a VFR machine. I just want it.
CJ
RV7Factory
Chief Obfuscation Officer
I don't know much about this CDI/429/Serial stuff, but the one thing I thought was cool about the new AFS EFIS and EM was the ability to connect two units together with a simple crossover ethernet cable. As long as one unit had the EM brain and the other the EFIS brain, either unit could display either functionality (or both) in synchronized form.
the_other_dougreeves
Well Known Member
Dynon can now do this as well. Split screen operation is also possible.RV7Factory said:
RV7Factory
Chief Obfuscation Officer
Yea, but my understanding of the Dynon is that this is done through pins on the main connector... certainly not difficult, but not nearly as easy as the click-click of connecting an ethernet cable IMHO.the_other_dougreeves said:
You have to wire the units into your airplane anyway. Hooking two wires together isn't that hard, is it? It weighs less than an ethernet cable, and it's one less thing to connect Not to say the ethernet cable idea isn't a good one.
CJ: At least we're farther along on a heated pitot than any other EFIS company on the planet!
Not to say the ethernet cable idea isn't a good one.CJ: At least we're farther along on a heated pitot than any other EFIS company on the planet!
N941WR
Legacy Member
For me it is almost a mute point as I have bought all of my EFIS and EMS products.
Working in computers for the last 20 years I have seen a lot of good products come and go and a lot of bad products come and stay. Go figure.
Dynon seems to be a different animal. They are truly interested in hearing customer feedback and they deliver on proposed upgrades. The upgrades are free, which is even better.
It came down to a trust issue for me. When talking to the various manufactures two years ago, I felt comfortable talking to Dynon. I can't say why, but I can say that I have known that my panel will contain Dynon units for two years.
A D100 EFIS on the left side and a D10 EMS on the right side. Yes, they will be connected together so they can display each other's information.
Click on this picture for a better view:
Since this picture was taken the D100 has arrived and is waiting for me to wire it up.
Like BillC, I too made a spreadsheet comparison chart identifying the features of each EFIS and EMS out there. It came down to what I need in a VFR aircraft. Truth is, even the least capable EFIS and EMS is more than you need in a VFR aircraft.
As for the backup steam gauges, I'm a bit old school and just like the redundancy. Besides, these gauges are cheep. What is not shown is the whiskey compass that will be installed on top of the panel.
Working in computers for the last 20 years I have seen a lot of good products come and go and a lot of bad products come and stay. Go figure.
Dynon seems to be a different animal. They are truly interested in hearing customer feedback and they deliver on proposed upgrades. The upgrades are free, which is even better.
It came down to a trust issue for me. When talking to the various manufactures two years ago, I felt comfortable talking to Dynon. I can't say why, but I can say that I have known that my panel will contain Dynon units for two years.
A D100 EFIS on the left side and a D10 EMS on the right side. Yes, they will be connected together so they can display each other's information.
Click on this picture for a better view:
Since this picture was taken the D100 has arrived and is waiting for me to wire it up.
Like BillC, I too made a spreadsheet comparison chart identifying the features of each EFIS and EMS out there. It came down to what I need in a VFR aircraft. Truth is, even the least capable EFIS and EMS is more than you need in a VFR aircraft.
As for the backup steam gauges, I'm a bit old school and just like the redundancy. Besides, these gauges are cheep. What is not shown is the whiskey compass that will be installed on top of the panel.
rickmellor
Well Known Member
Where's the AFS Info?
I'm finding more info on the AFS units in these forums than anywhere else. When I look at their website the latest news post was three months ago, yet it flew to OSH and customers seem to be getting them. I know they've got a good reputation (I've already installed their AOA), but I'd like some good info on all these cool features.
As it stands ... the Dynon stuff is starting to look VERY tempting (only because of the latest announcements).
I'm finding more info on the AFS units in these forums than anywhere else. When I look at their website the latest news post was three months ago, yet it flew to OSH and customers seem to be getting them. I know they've got a good reputation (I've already installed their AOA), but I'd like some good info on all these cool features.
As it stands ... the Dynon stuff is starting to look VERY tempting (only because of the latest announcements).
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lucaberta
Active Member
I made this exact comment to Rob, Ken and Dave at AFS in Oshkosh, their current level of information available on the website is well below what people need in order to take an educated decision when comparing the different EFIS manufacturers out there. They are fully aware of the issue, and will hopefully be publishing more detailed information real soon now.rickmellor said:I'm finding more info on the AFS units in these forums than anywhere else. When I look at their website the latest news post was three months ago, yet it flew to OSH and customers seem to be getting them. I know they've got a good reputation (I've already installed their AOA), but I'd like some good info on all these cool features.
I spent quite a bit of time at the AFS booth talking to the gang, and decided to go with their AF-3400 EFIS. Nothing beats seeing the actual product and playing with it for a bit!
Ciao, Luca
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N402RH
Well Known Member
AF-3400 Screen
The AF-3400 screen is 600 nits AND transflective. This means that if you are in direct sun it will get brighter.
The AF-3500 screen is 500 nits, although most people looking at them together think that the AF-3500 is brighter, it is just so large and puts out a lot of light.
I have the AF-3500 in my RV-4 and have flown with it for over 35 hours. I have never had any time that it was not completely readable.
Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems
The AF-3400 screen is 600 nits AND transflective. This means that if you are in direct sun it will get brighter.
The AF-3500 screen is 500 nits, although most people looking at them together think that the AF-3500 is brighter, it is just so large and puts out a lot of light.
I have the AF-3500 in my RV-4 and have flown with it for over 35 hours. I have never had any time that it was not completely readable.
Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems
rickmellor
Well Known Member
Going with AFS
Luca,
Thanks for the update. The AF-3500 is my hands-down favorite just from what I've seen so far. While I'm still 6-8 months from my EFIS purchase (plenty of time for this info to become available) I'm making decisions that the ultimate EFIS choice will impact. I've narrowed it down to the AFS and Dynon units but would like to be able to stop worrying about this part and complete my electrical system design. Hopefully now that OSH is over things will be moving along again.
-Rick
Luca,
Thanks for the update. The AF-3500 is my hands-down favorite just from what I've seen so far. While I'm still 6-8 months from my EFIS purchase (plenty of time for this info to become available) I'm making decisions that the ultimate EFIS choice will impact. I've narrowed it down to the AFS and Dynon units but would like to be able to stop worrying about this part and complete my electrical system design. Hopefully now that OSH is over things will be moving along again.
-Rick
Davepar
Well Known Member
Bill definitely has the cheapest moving map. I love the chart clipped to the panel. Much better than looking down at a knee board.
I did a similar comparison on cost vs. function, except I included an AOA and a CDI. At the time, those two options were available on the AFS and not on the Dynon. That ended up making the AFS cheaper than a Dynon + AOA + CDI. Of course now Dynon has the CDI capability so the cost comparison might be different.
Dave
I did a similar comparison on cost vs. function, except I included an AOA and a CDI. At the time, those two options were available on the AFS and not on the Dynon. That ended up making the AFS cheaper than a Dynon + AOA + CDI. Of course now Dynon has the CDI capability so the cost comparison might be different.
Dave
