IFR training for the frugal

So, it seems I need (okay, want) to get my IFR ticket. But I want to do it frugally (not cheaply). So, how to do this?

Seems there are a lot of "low cost" IFR schools out there promising a lot. Smells a little fishy to me, but what do you think? Is $5K and 10-days really possible? Will it stick in my brain if done this fast?

Seems there are two portions to the IFR ticket. The knowledge and the practical portions

I have found several ways to get the knowledge test portion done very cheaply.
The FAA have the handbooks here;
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/
Or you can rent the popular instruction videos here;
http://smartflix.com/store/category/70/Aircraft-Piloting
Or I have the Jeppesen IFR text book and Sportys videos from prevous attempts. And there are many online tests you can take.

So the real question is how to get the practical portion done.

Currently, my idea to minimize the cost is to minimize the rental and instructor time. Thoughts on this approach?

My -6a has a GRT sport, 496, icom A200, KX125 nav/com and an auto pilot. So, I am hoping to use this for some of the training. Is this possible? Or, better question, is it a good idea? How do you see this working into the training? If it made sense to add a 430W instead of paying for a rental, this could be an option. But I don't see taking the practical test in my plane as most of the equipment is not IFR legal, and not sure how you block the attitude for the partial panel parts.

Seems I can use up to 10 hours of sim time toward the IFR ticket. This should help keep the cost down. I have heard practicing on MS flight sim, although not counting toward your time, can help reduce the "paid for" time. Any thoughts on this as being practical or being a good or bad idea?

And, when I do have to pay for the instruction, is there any thoughts on going to a immersion type training school, a school on my home field, or maybe even hiring a freelance instructor? Any recommendations? Any RV builders/owner IFR Instructors?

I have over the required 50-hours of XC time.
The practical calls for 40-hours of IFR training (10 of which can be in a sim) but only 15-hours need to be by a qualified IFR instructor. Are the other 25-hours on your own with a safety pilot? Is this where my -6A can work into the equation? Is this even wise?

I do have some minimal IFR instruction time about 3 years ago in my log book. Does this still count?

My goal is to get the IFR certificate to become a better and safer pilot. I want to be frugal but not cheap. All advice is welcome.

Whew! Thanks for reading such a long post.

Mike, good set of questions, I am in the same boat as you-----and have been wondering pretty much the same questions.

I predict this thread will get quite popular.

If you read the regs, you can get 20 of the 40 hours in an Approved Simulator. I do recommend finding a school with an approved sim that you can get 20 hours in.

I went the frugal way with an accelerated 10 (actually 11 day) course. I paid a low fee that included all flight and simulator time. The Examiner fee is extra but the course fee included the airplane for the checkride and if necessary, additional training for a 2nd checkride airplane but not the retest fee.

For me, the accelerated course was the way to go. I am able to schedule vacation and could concentrate on nothing but flying. At the completion, you will know enough to pass the checkride. Had I stayed at home, I would have had interruptions that would have dragged out the training and raised the cost.

After the checkride, I recommend IFR transition training into your RV. The RV is a handful to fly IFR but it can be done. A C172 is a lot better IFR platform where things happen no where near as fast as they do in an RV.

The equipment you list in your RV does not sound like it would be enough for a IFR checkride. The examiner may object to only the KX125 and its built in CDI. The checkride will require 2 non-precision approaches and 1 precision approach. The KX125 will not let you fly a precision approach unless you have another box installed that will give you an ILS.

Most of my actual RV IFR flying has been IFR to VFR on top. Have only flown one actual IFR approach in my RV over the past year. All the RV IFR time has been simulated. I have more actual IFR (departure and approaches) in a Mooney in the past 4 months than I do in my RV.

Get the IFR rating how every you do it. Go the less expensive accelerated course of your choice or drag it out over a long period of time in your RV.

IF you are like me, once you have it, you will do what ever you need to get proficient in the RV and will work (make time) to keep it current in the RV.


Additional note:

Found this link. It has some cost estimates. Not sure how current it is on prices but my following comments are two fees that I know have changed.
http://www.rodmachado.com/adv_ratings/adv_ratings.php

The written test fee is now $150 at CATS and there is a $10 AOPA discount.
Expect to pay $500 for the checkride. I do not know any examiners that will do a checkride for less than $400.

IFR ticket

I can relate. It was important for me to not only get the ticket on a budget but also get the rating from someone that had REAL WORLD experience. Found an instructor with 15K hours. Did not want the ground school to get in the way so before starting attended a weekend accelerated ground school and took the test at the end. I then informed my instructor that I wanted to fly every morning at 7a.m. until finished. We rarely missed a day, your skills will be so sharp that the checkride is anticlimatic. A few days after the ticket the field went 250 overcast, called the instructor up and jumped up in it. This wil let you know immediately what your comfortable minimums are until you get experience. Best rating ever for a pilot.
Don

This is a link to the FAA Pilot Test Standards for instruments.

http://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/airmen/test_standards/media/faa-s-8081-4e.pdf

Computer (PC) simulators (X-plane and FSX) are great for practicing - you can really work on "stay ahead of the airplane" skills during approaches, holds, etc., and your incremental cost for a couple more hours of practice is zero.

To add to the simulator workload, I use and recommend a pay service called PilotEdge - they provide live ATC for home PC simulators. They have a two week free trial and some training scenarios - together, I think these do a good job of augmenting a flight training program.

YMMV, etc etc.

I can share with you my experience and thoughts as I have sort of been there done that.

For the start, the ground work is of no issue and you can do it at home using course material available, rather inexpensively. Often times you can borrow it from friends if they have it. I did it at home and had no issues passing the exam with a high grade (98%) or the oral portion of the check ride.

For the flying portion, I contemplated the fast course and was very happy I did not go that route, especially after talking to a few people who had done it. Unless you are pressed for time, a carrier in aviation or something like that, I honestly doubt how effectively one can absorb all the info in such short period of time. Another thing I highly recommend is to learn in your own plan (RV) if you are intending of flying the RV as IFR. The learning curve is higher, perhaps much higher but that will really prepare you for real IFR when you are on your own.

As to do it frugally, I would recommend to make most of your normal flying into a training session, find a buddy that is willing to spot you and make your joy flight into a training under foggles. Much of the IFR is staying ahead of the plane and ability for a good scan and multi-tasking. With that, all you need is 20 hours of instruction with 20 hours of flying with a safety pilot. With this, you can use some of the $$$ to upgrade your panel that would set you for IFR going forward. The ticket itself is priceless, first it will make one a better pilot and it also opens the door for situation that otherwise you would have been grounded.

Since I have got my ticket, I file IFR anywhere that is longer than an hour flight, even if it is all VFR condition.

Hope this helps and best of luck.

Unfortunately getting the rating and learning how to fly in the weather are usually two entirely different projects. Unless you are fortunate enough to have a highly experienced instructor, and bad weather during your training, they seldom go hand in hand.

Get the rating however works best for your schedule and lifestyle. Then find a local instructor or safety pilot who will fly with you on some trips in the real world and take them along to build confidence and experience.

Cram courses are fine for passing the written. And there are good accelerated instrument courses... It all boils down to what works in your personal schedule and life. For the most part, the faster you complete the training, the less it will cost.

In reality, get the rating and then fly in the weather. At first when the weather is really skunky, take an experienced pilot with you until you get comfortable.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Designated Pilot Examiner

IFR Training

I went the accelerated route with Streamline Aviation based in Austin, Tx. They came to me (Baton Rouge, La). A friend and I did it together- I trained for 4 days, then my friend trained for 5 days, then I did 2 more. Instructor stayed in a spare bedroom at my home. We did about 9 hrs on the sim that he brought. I feel that in was an asset to fly the whole time with the instructor, and the checkride was anticlimatic. Looking in hindsight I think it was the way. Matt has a first class operation- check him out @ www.streamlineair.com

Wow! all good info here especially this from Gary Sobek

RV6_flyer said:

If you read the regs, you can get 20 of the 40 hours in an Approved Simulator. I do recommend finding a school with an approved sim that you can get 20 hours in.

I went the frugal way with an accelerated 10 (actually 11 day) course. I paid a low fee that included all flight and simulator time. The Examiner fee is extra but the course fee included the airplane for the checkride and if necessary, additional training for a 2nd checkride airplane but not the retest fee.

For me, the accelerated course was the way to go. I am able to schedule vacation and could concentrate on nothing but flying. At the completion, you will know enough to pass the checkride. Had I stayed at home, I would have had interruptions that would have dragged out the training and raised the cost.

After the checkride, I recommend IFR transition training into your RV. The RV is a handful to fly IFR but it can be done. A C172 is a lot better IFR platform where things happen no where near as fast as they do in an RV.

The equipment you list in your RV does not sound like it would be enough for a IFR checkride. The examiner may object to only the KX125 and its built in CDI. The checkride will require 2 non-precision approaches and 1 precision approach. The KX125 will not let you fly a precision approach unless you have another box installed that will give you an ILS.

Most of my actual RV IFR flying has been IFR to VFR on top. Have only flown one actual IFR approach in my RV over the past year. All the RV IFR time has been simulated. I have more actual IFR (departure and approaches) in a Mooney in the past 4 months than I do in my RV.

Get the IFR rating how every you do it. Go the less expensive accelerated course of your choice or drag it out over a long period of time in your RV.

IF you are like me, once you have it, you will do what ever you need to get proficient in the RV and will work (make time) to keep it current in the RV.


Additional note:

Found this link. It has some cost estimates. Not sure how current it is on prices but my following comments are two fees that I know have changed.
http://www.rodmachado.com/adv_ratings/adv_ratings.php

The written test fee is now $150 at CATS and there is a $10 AOPA discount.
Expect to pay $500 for the checkride. I do not know any examiners that will
do a checkride for less than $400.

Click to expand...

I got my IFR rating 28 years ago but I remember the experience well. When I added the DME to the plane it was amazing how great it seemed. Anyway, I agree with basically every thing said here. I went to an accelerated weekend ground school and got that out of the way then worked in the training as I could for over a year before I could take the flight test. The only good thing about the way I did it was I had been doing it so long and I had flown so many NDB, VOR, LOC and ILS approaches that it seemed natural and my mind automatically focused on the right things. My cost was approximately $6,000 1984.

I flew to work every day for 15 years in LA so I know about the stratus layer off the ocean and the associated departures very well but probably once a week on average I had to file (tower to tower) IFR and fly the approach with some missed approaches a few return to origin days.

When we built our RV-6A I equipped it like I used the equipment in the Archer II, built in SL-60 to replace the GPS 90 handheld, only one nav radio with a separate VOR/LOC/GS indicator, no ADF and no autopilot (had one in the Archer but almost never used it).

Gary's statement about the RV being a hand full in IFR cannot be over emphasized. I flew for a year as built with a lot of sweating bullets before I started making it more compatible with IFR demands. First came the TruTrak Pictorial Pilot for directional control and Altrac for vertical hold. Then a second nav radio so I could monitor real time cross checks, fixes, missed approach points and step down locations. I originally installed a Terra unit which works great but it does not allow you to monitor a second frequency like a SL-30. Had I known about the SL-30 capability I would have installed it originally and a second nav radio would not have been necessary.

The thrust of all of this I guess is to say:

1 - the ground school is important but easy and the accelerated ground school worked very well to both get the knowledge and get over the hurdle.

2 - I think the 10 day total immersion flight training with the flight test at the end is a wise way to go.

3 - Your RV does not seem to have the equipment I would want to be flying tough IFR with.

Bob Axsom

Lots of good advice here. I did my checkride at near the minimum number of hours by using the King/Cessna Pilot Center course at a 141 school. For each lesson, I'd 1) read in the book about what I was going to learn 2) watch the video showing the maneuvers 3) fly the maneuvers several times in MS Flight Sim and finally 4) do it in the airplane with the instructor. By the time I got to step 4 for each lesson, I was very prepared. That, combined with doing 1-2 lessons a week, really made efficient use of my time and money.

-Rob

I agree.. I did pretty much the same thing and it saved a lot of time and money.

For the written, I just studied online.

RV10Rob said:

Lots of good advice here. I did my checkride at near the minimum number of hours by using the King/Cessna Pilot Center course at a 141 school. For each lesson, I'd 1) read in the book about what I was going to learn 2) watch the video showing the maneuvers 3) fly the maneuvers several times in MS Flight Sim and finally 4) do it in the airplane with the instructor. By the time I got to step 4 for each lesson, I was very prepared. That, combined with doing 1-2 lessons a week, really made efficient use of my time and money.

-Rob

Click to expand...

Accelerated School

I firmly believe the best way to get the ticket is the accelerated school route. Most require you have the written out of the way. Here's what I did.

Got the King IFR program. Say what you want about them, they are fine in small doses Studied if for a few weeks. Then I set a hard date for the written, a Monday. That weekend I locked myself down and went through all of the King program again. Took the written and passed with a 92.

I attended Sheble's in Kingman AZ. This is a 10 day program. I didn't want to stay in Kingman for 10 days so I used my RV7 to commute, doing 3 days at a time. They gave me a little break in the price since this assisted those out of towners who were there for the duration. I completed the rating in just under 30 days. We had some weather issues to contend with also. Added on an IFR helicopter rating at home and had that 28 days later.

Sheble's is not in Kingman but near Bullhead City. The current cash price for the IFR ticket is $4365. Not sure what the check ride cost is now but budget $500.

As Gary and Doug noted, this only gets you the ticket. Now you have to learn to fly in the weather in your own plane. Very doable.

The best recommendation I can give is to not spread it out too long. Knowledge and retention is much easier when condensed.

Good luck!!!

Long post...

Some things I remember from being an IFR student who struggled, and later a Part 141 CFII & corporate PC-12 right-seater...

What kind of IFR flying will you want to do with your ticket? If you just want to have it for the sake of learning the stuff, the accelerated courses are probably ok. Safely flying IFR in IMC requires much more proficiency and experience than the PTS requires. Do the quick courses really do it? I guess you'll need to talk to someone who has gone through your course of choice and see if they were able to feel confident flying in actual IMC afterwards. You should also ask them what kind of flying experience they had when they started the course and see how it compares to yours. If the course has a good experienced instructor who teaches exactly what you need to know to pass the test AND fly safely as a beginning IFR pilot, then it's probably fine.

If I had to do it all over again, I would find a gray-haired experienced commercial pilot who flies cargo or corporate for a living and instructs on the side. They could give you the BEST real life training. A new CFII might have NEVER even flown in the clouds... keep that in mind. (The requirements for getting your CFII do not include ANY actual IMC time. Stupid? YES.)

If you actually want to fly & travel IFR, what plane will you fly and stay current in? If it's a rental, see if you can train in that airplane. Learn every detail of every piece of equipment it has so you won't have to figure it out in the clouds. If you want to upgrade your panel and fly your RV, I would spend the money on the upgrade first, then go out and learn every detail of it in VFR before training for IFR. I have a few hundred hours behind the GRT Sport in VFR and love it--it's real easy to scan on instruments. You'd have to have some sort of battery backup or analog backup though. A certified IFR GPS is worth a LOT in the modern IFR environment--GPS approaches are so easy. I wouldn't want to go anywhere IFR without one, but I've been spoiled by flying other people's money. A GRT Sport with an SL30 and the proper attitude backup instruments/systems would be ok for a lot of trips. Synthetic Vision would be great too. Autopilot would be a must for long trips. Save your mental energy for the approach!

In the mean time, if you're one of those guys who likes to avoid ATC, you can prepare yourself for IFR by flying into Class B and C airports a lot. That 50 hour XC requirement doesn't do any good if a pilot just goes to uncontrolled fields. Make ATC contact, fly in, land, shut down, do whatever, and then get the VFR clearance to get out. Get vectored all over heck and back. Get VFR flight following everywhere you go until talking to ATC is like talking to your brother and you know what he'll say next. Many of the IFR radio procedures you'll encounter are also used in VFR clearances and flight following. Once you don't have to think about ATC anymore, that will take a lot of the workload away when you go under the foggles.

Another thing you can do is to fly IFR approach procedures visually for the first several times you fly them. You will be amazed how much faster you will learn if you can relate what you see on the nav instruments to what you see out the window. When your brain does not have to process keeping the wings level and figuring out your position in space, you will learn approach procedures so much faster. You learn to associate the runway position with where you are on the approach; you pay more attention to how much control input you need to stay on the localizer course and what it really looks like to be at minimum descent altitude. You might be surprised at how close you'll come to terrain! Some CFIIs will object to this because they think they are "wasting time" when the student is not under the foggles building up that 40 hours, but for me, "wasting time" was flying approaches under the foggles when I had no freakin clue where I was going and where the runway was. Would you learn how to walk blindly through a building by listening to directions and bumping into the walls with the lights off? NO, you would turn on the lights and walk it a few times, then shut off the lights! A picture is worth a thousand ATC vectors. (Sorry, just a rant on one of my pet-peeves about the popular IFR syllabus I had to use in a former life. ) Once you're familiar with approach procedures, you can request VFR practice approaches all the time from ATC even if you're solo (foggles off of course). I know a few pilots who always do that when they come home from a trip VFR-- it keeps them sharp for when they have to do it tired out and blind in the soup.

Microsoft Flight Sim helped me learn how to do holds. I could sit there for free til 2 am on the computer and then print out my flight path superimposed on the map and see how much it sucked or how brilliant I was! For mental work like that, Flight Sim is great. And for the Written, I studied the Gleim books at home on my own. I actually learned how to work out the answers to the questions-- memorizing answers is really a waste of a good opportunity to learn stuff. Some of the stuff is not very useful anymore, like those endless NDB problems and black and white Radar Summary charts, but a lot of the weather and regulations and nav/chart problems are still good exercises. I haven't looked at a test in a few years, hopefully they've updated it by now.

Good luck!

I'm a cfii, here's my take on this:
1. Do a home-study program for the written. Get a local cfii to sign you off for the test.
2. A 172 is easier to fly (more stable) than an rv6; but you can fly your own plane for a lot less than the cost of renting, that should pay for a little more time.
3. Find a free lance cfii who will fly in weather with you.
4. Fly at least twice a week or you'll forget too much between lessons.
5. Fly under the hood with a friend is okay. Just make sure you don't reinforce bad habits.
6. Equipment. You need to add a second independent source for flight instruments, like a Dynon D6 or the new TruTrak box. In either case, with a back up battery. You also need to be able to do a VOR, localizer, and ILS approach. A second com would be nice but not mandatory. An SL 30 would interface nicely with your existing GRT Sport. You'll need a marker beacon receiver too, unless you decide to spend the big bucks and get a 430w.

Thanks and keep it coming

Thanks to everyone for their responses.

I do love my GRT. In fact I am thinking of upgrading. The new HXr is really nice and you can add a certified gps for a IFR legal LPV approach. For the price of a used GNS430W, I can have a the equivelent of a G1000. I love experimentals!

So far my planned path is going to be reading the FAA handbooks backed up with the Jeppeson text and Sportys videos I already have. This should get the knowledge test done.

From there, I like RV10Rob's 4-step process. This is how I did the private and it worked well for me.

But now I have a plane of my own, so I like KatieB's suggestion of flying it in VFR. In fact today I flew the LOC 17R approach into KDWH. But I cheated and used the RNAV approach to get me to the initial fix and then flew the localizer in from there. This is educational. This has got to be the longest approach I have ever done (11mi straight in and stuck behind a Cessna). The MDA is lower than I ever want to be and still not see the ground.

I do like the idea of the immersion course, but I am worried about the info sticking. But it seems you could save some money because there is a very structured and proven plan to get you done.

I do like talking with ATC. I use them as my comfort blanket. I feel lonely and get nervous when I don't hear them. (like on XC in the middle of nowhere)

Anyone know a gray-haired commercial pilot who would freelance as IFR instructor on the side, and is in Houston?

If I upgraded the plane, are there examiners who would do the practical in the RV? I like the idea of doing the IFR work in what I will be flying. Not sure I can get happy about going back to rentals.

By no means is this plan set in stone, so keep the responses and good advice coming.

The answer is "yes", there are designated pilot examiners who will fly in an RV. As you know, however, they are not required to do so, so you may need to look around.

IP Trainer Software

You're received some tremendous advice thus far, and I'd add to it to give IP Trainer a try (eBay is probably the cheapest). It was designed to be a complete practical instrument rating course taking you from basic pitch/power maneuvers through completing a simulated check ride and everything required for your PTS check ride. While I used MS Flight Simulator too, I found IP Trainer to be much more challenging and effective, and it's definitely more comprehensive. Watch it fly a maneuver, practice it as many times as you want, fly it and receive feedback as to how well you performed.

My approach was to pass the written first (I used the King course and received their sign-off for the exam), and then successfully complete all the lessons and the check ride in IP Trainer. Based on the agenda for each next actual lesson, I'd repeat the appropriate lesson(s) in IP Trainer. While you'll still have to get used to the feel of flying a real airplane to complete the maneuvers, everything else will be second nature.

As an example, my instructor called to cancel one of my early instrument lessons due to weather, but as it was just low ceilings and light rain I suggested it to be a great opportunity to get some actual instrument time. He happily agreed, though warned in advance that he's probably have to take control of the airplane as I'd probably experience some spacial disorientation.

We departed Jax Navy Base (KNIP) and flew just offshore to do some basic maneuvers, then did a VOR approach into St. Augustine (KSGJ), followed by a couple of precision approaches into Craig Muni (KCRG), and finally a Precision Approach Radar (PAR - the controller gives you verbal instructions to maintain horizontal and vertical alignment - basically talks you down) back to Navy Jax. Essentially two hours in the clouds, and while I recall a couple times it felt like we were flying at about a 30 degree angle of bank, I had no difficulty flying the airplane within PTS tolerances. He was quite surprised, but to me it really felt like I was doing things I'd already done many times before.

Bottom line is that it should save you more than a few hours in the airplane. The only disadvantages are that:

1) The software can be a bit quirky, as sometimes it seemed like it busted me when I flew correctly and made me re-fly the lesson (more practice!)

2) There were a few times when the way IP Trainer explained/taught me to fly a particular maneuver was different than the way my instructor explained/taught me. The results were exactly the same, but the way he explained it, visualization and memory techniques, etc. were different. Easy to overcome if you have a flexible instructor, or even one interested in learning different ways of remembering or visualizing the same thing, but some instructors or programs want it to be their way or the highway.

3) You'll probably have to remember different power settings from what you learn in IP Trainer. And,

4) it's based on a standard six-pack, so if you're using an all or partial glass panel, it will be a bit different.

Download and page through the training manual, as well as try the demo software and see if you think it will help.

Good luck!

Chris

KatieB said:

Another thing you can do is to fly IFR approach procedures visually for the first several times you fly them. You will be amazed how much faster you will learn if you can relate what you see on the nav instruments to what you see out the window.

Click to expand...

That is a really cool suggestion that I've never seen recommended before. I can imagine how it might help out a lot though.

I've been living these issues for the past 6 months. I run my own law practice and finding the time to train and study has been very, very difficult. My goal has been to keep a regular schedule since I started in December, but that has not always worked.

I did the King IFR course and passed the written about 2/3 of the way through my required hours.

In hindsight, I should have upgraded my panel with a used 430W rather than the C-172 rentals.

The good news is that I've become very comfortable with the system. The bad news is it has been costly and my familiarity is with an airplane I hope never to rent again! Hope to do my checkride the end of this week.

Wish me luck....

Good luck

kholsinger said:

Hope to do my checkride the end of this week.

Wish me luck....

Click to expand...

Good luck to you

Phlyan Pan said:

That is a really cool suggestion that I've never seen recommended before. I can imagine how it might help out a lot though.

Click to expand...

First post here. I'm a lurking, hopefully future RV owner, but this is a great thread. I think instrument training is some of the most valuable training to get. It isn't always easy and can get frustrating, but it is very rewarding, and will improve your airmanship across the board.

I'll shoot a practice approach almost every time I'm out. Eventually you realize that GPS, VOR, ILS, DME arcs are pretty much the same no matter where you are - just different altitudes, frequencies, etc. You can expect the same calls from approach at similar points, etc. Once you expect all these things, everything slows down and you begin getting ahead of the aircraft again - difficult and frustrating for most new IFR students. Don't forget to do some full procedures from time to time as well. It makes some approach controllers cranky (their prerogative to deny), and burns a little more gas, but sometimes we get so used to vectors, we lose some of our sharpness on the entire plate - procedure turn heading, outbound timings, step down altitudes, etc.

One thing that helped me become proficient (not sure of the practicality of this in the civilian training environment - obviously not at all in two seaters) was to be a passenger on training flights. I would jump in the back of the helo, spread out my ELA and approach plates, get on the ICS, and just listen and follow along. I retained much more this way (procedurally) than I did up front trying to do everything while fighting to keep the greasy side down. Also, assuming you have the BI stuff down, and positive aircraft control is no issue, a lot of IFR proficiency is procedural and can be practiced chair flying. I used to go through entire flights in my head - getting a clearance, switching to departure on climb out, hand off to center, calling approach, getting my final vector and approach clearance, etc. All these things will be very similar regardless of location - and knowing what to expect and when to expect it, IMHO, is more than 1/2 the battle while IFR.

Lastly, always remember that it is VERY difficult to simulate the effects of true IMC. You can have a brazillion hours under the foggles or at night, but it can all be different the first time you're truly in it - especially when dealing with different cloud banks, shapes etc. I've had portions of flights where I would have bet a years pay that I was in a 35' bank, but I'm staring at a wings level AI. I just burried my head in the instruments, trusted what they were telling me, and trucked on. VERY hard to do at times - even with experience - and not something you want to do solo for the first few times.

Sorry for the rant, but I LOVE IFR, and encourage everyone to complete the ticket.

Welcome to VAF!!!!

60av8tor said:

First post here. I'm a lurking, hopefully future RV owner,

Click to expand...

Jon, welcome aboard the good ship VAF

Good to have you here, thanks for the input on the training issue.

Hello all,

I hope I'm not out of place here, I did my IFR in another country where the requirements are different but I think there are a few common threads.

1. You wont save money by trying to do an IFR ticket cheaply. Cr@p instruction will see you repeat flights to get competency.

2. Find a crusty old bar steward (instructor) that flew/flies real IFR, that is, night freight etc. Crusty old bar stewards are worth finding, if they are still around it means they have learnt lessons that you wont have to!

3. Do fly as much of your rating in imc weather as possible.

4. When you do get your ticket, fly a practice approach (if you don't have to fly a real one!) every flight you do.

5. IFR is an attitude (pardon the pun). If you are flying for business you sometimes need to take a breath and slow it down before you hop in the plane.

6. Go back to number 1 and have a think about it.

7. A sneaky peak is worth a thousand scans

Thanks for the information and opinions. I hope others are receiving value from this post. I know I am.

Update:
I have found a few instructors that will train in the RV. So this is a viable route.

There is a huge variation in ground school costs. Anything from free (self study) to around $2K. I will go the simi-free route. Of course the knowledge test fee applies to all methods.

The real question now is, do you upgrade the plane to fly IFR or do you rent a IFR capable plane. There is no cheap way around this. It is going to cost some real bucks. I have almost given up several time just based on the cost.

The other thing I have found is that there is a lot of mis information out there. Let's just keep it at that.

There are also some awesome simulators out there.

At the moment my plan is to upgrade the plane and go with a school that has a full motion sim, and that will instruct in my plane. After all this is what I will be flying after I have the new ticket.

Does this sound okay? Anybody done it this way? Regrets?

Safety Pilot Qual??

Can a Private Pilot act as safety pilot if the safety pilot is now flying as a Sport Pilot? In otherwords, they just don't have a current Class III Med...

rv9av8tr said:

Can a Private Pilot act as safety pilot if the safety pilot is now flying as a Sport Pilot? In otherwords, they just don't have a current Class III Med...

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Only if they are in an aircraft that does not require a pilot that has a medical. In other words, only in an LSA aircraft or one that meets the LSA Sport Pilot criteria.

Wot this bloke said, I was lucky to have lots of rough weather. But my first solo IMC flight was still a bit tense, so I would hate to think how w newbie goes after a fair weather quick course.

wise words Doug

B25Flyer said:

Unfortunately getting the rating and learning how to fly in the weather are usually two entirely different projects. Unless you are fortunate enough to have a highly experienced instructor, and bad weather during your training, they seldom go hand in hand.

Get the rating however works best for your schedule and lifestyle. Then find a local instructor or safety pilot who will fly with you on some trips in the real world and take them along to build confidence and experience.

Cram courses are fine for passing the written. And there are good accelerated instrument courses... It all boils down to what works in your personal schedule and life. For the most part, the faster you complete the training, the less it will cost.

In reality, get the rating and then fly in the weather. At first when the weather is really skunky, take an experienced pilot with you until you get comfortable.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Designated Pilot Examiner

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Mike D said:

At the moment my plan is to upgrade the plane and go with a school that has a full motion sim, and that will instruct in my plane. After all this is what I will be flying after I have the new ticket.

Click to expand...

I've got some time in full motion sims, and my opinion is that the additional cost for you renting time in the FM sim would be a waste.

Full motion adds to the fidelity of a specific aircraft flight (or ground) model. An example would that you get the buffet that feels as it would in the real plane, or you feel the bumps in the concrete as you taxi. That level of fidelity is really aimed at training you for a specific aircraft, and in your case, it is an additional cost that won't really help you get where you want to go.

If it costs the same as a sim with no motion, then by all means, have fun!

Training with non certified equipment

Can you do all of your instrument training with non certified equipment such as a G3X with WAAS GPS? I know that you can't legally fly in instrument conditions with non certified equipment, but it sure would be nice to do all of your instrument training in your own airplane and save on the rental fee and then put that money back into your own bird when you could afford to upgrade to the required certified equipment.

Let me add my free advice (it's worth every penny you paid for it) as a CFII and professional pilot regarding sims or flight training devices.

Think of the sim (FTD) as a machine that will allow you to learn the procedures of IFR. They do a very poor job of teaching you how to fly IFR because despite what the manufacturer might tell you, they don't fly like a real airplane. The best place to use a FTD is holding practice, NDB work etc. Use your time in a FTD to cement in your head procedures and habits that will be used once you get in the real airplane. Once you have the procedures cold to the point of not having to think about it, go do it in the airplane.

Free advice #2. Do not allow your instructor to rush you into shooting approaches too soon. It's way more fun for the instructor but you will be so far behind the airplane that should you crash you will have to walk to the scene of the accident. Spend lots of time early mastering control of the aircraft so you can fly it without thinking about it. this allows your brain to work on procedures of IFR instead of just trying to keep the dirty side down. As boring as it sounds that means patterns patterns patterns. Mastery of the airplane to the point of being able to smoothly and accurately execute any pattern means you are ready to begin doing approaches, not before.

Good luck and have fun with it.

I agree with the above, simulators - even the simple PC ones - are good for holding pattern entries and NDB (for those who still have one) work.

Previous post- you can train in anything you like, but you must have an aircraft suitable for IFR for the practical test. If you can do a VOR, localizer, and ILS approach in your plane then you don't need a certified GPS.

You CAN fly legally IFR in non-certified instruments. This has been discussed several times already. GRT, Dynon, MGL, etc. are all non-certified instruments and are flown IFR legally everyday. What you are NOT supposed to do is use non-cert instruments for approaches.

I do not understand the previous post.
If you are flying under part 91, and if EAB with the usual operating limitations requiring you to follow 91.205, there are only a few things which must be certified, by which I mean show compliance with TSO standards. These include GPS used for IFR, and transponders. The regulations say nothing about flight instruments, VORs, localizers, DME or ADFs. There are no restrictions on flying ifr approaches with this equipment.

I went to GATTS in Manhatten, KS. Did all my flying in the RV 7 that we built. Garmin GTN 650 and 327 Transponder only certified equipement. They had no problem with it, nor the examineer. Really enjoyed it. 7 day course. Lucky to get 3 hours in the clouds. Would do it all over again, good people