rv-12

The RV-12 being constructed at Vans is a proof of concept aircraft. The pop-rivet feature has as many drawbacks as good features. The cost of the rivets being one and the fact that pop-rivets work loose in structural applications. It was already discussed that proseal be used between the skins as a way to eliminate this problem. Why go to the bother? Why not hard rivet in the first place? That can not be done now because the aircraft was designed with no access to allow for bucking rivets in many places and the assembly sequence prohibits this action. It is my belief that a customer ready RV-12 is not going to be available for quite some time yet.

Rans and Zenith have hundreds of aircraft flying for many years now using pulled rivets. I don't think Van's would go down this path unless it was a viable concept.

Vans is not using cherry lok rivets for the rv-12. They are using soft aluminum lps 3 or 4 rivets. I agree that cherry lok rivets are suitable for structural repairs, but I did witness a wing on a cessna agwagon that had an outer wing panel replaced using entirely cherry lok rivets and at end of the spray season the wing was unairworthy due to loose rivets. The same can be said about many of the ultra light airframes and some experimental aircraft that had short service cycles due to smoking and loose rivets. A builder should consider the idea that a shortcut in a building process that shortens the longevity of the end product is really no savings in time or money.

brules said:

A builder should consider the idea that a shortcut in a building process that shortens the longevity of the end product is really no savings in time or money.

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Use of pulled rivets in the RV-12 is not a shortcut in the building process. It was designed by an engineer to use exactly this type of construction. Pulled rivets are perfectly acceptable as long as the design is within their specifications.

If someone was trying to build an RV-9 using pulled rivets, I might agree with you. The -12 is designed to use them and there's no problem with that.

the zenair useing pulled rivets over 20 years and no visible problem ,i dont see any big deal with pulled or solid rivets besides the time for instalation and simplicity

I gotta ask brules... what's your goal here? On your 2nd post, you're coming out with punches at Van's engineering validity and structural integrity. What gives? If you don't like it, don't buy it. But I can't see any reason except old fashion trolling to come to a forum where everyone obviously believes in a company and proceed to bash it. Comparing an LSA to a cropduster is just flawed logic.

My reference to the cropduster was not to compare it to an lsa type aircraft but only to explain that even cherry lok rivets which are the gold standard pulled rivet are prone to failure over repeated stress situations. I also agree that if an aircraft is designed to use pulled rivets such as the mentioned zenairs and others that is up to the designer. Having built an aircraft using pop rivets exclusively it is my personal experience that it saves only minimal labor if you still deburr the holes, line up everything with clecos, and install the rivets. The pop rivets have steel shanks that remain after it pops off leaving rust stains when the aircraft gets some age and use. My intent was not to put down a designer or product but only to point out that over time the pop rivet does not serve the purpose as well as a solid rivet, and if I were going to spend considerable time and money on an aircraft these are things I would take into account.

Paul

What about all the loose solid rivets I've come across all of these years? Nobody seems to address them.

Forget it guys. You cannot change the minds of these solid rivet guys. Maybe all of the noise from driving all those solid rivets has affected them.

perhaps we should look at the pop rivet issue another way before we blow it off by stateting that loud noises have affected the thinking of forum contributors. Not all pop rivets are the same, and some are not suitable for aircraft use. Some are suitable to use on an aircraft but not in structural situations. The Zenith aircraft use the Textron Avdel Avex rivet which is a pop rivet that addresses the shear and tension loads as well as the corrosion issues caused by the severed mandrel. Another factor about pop rivets is that if 3 solid rivets of a smaller diameter would work to hold two aluminim parts together, it generally takes 5 pop rivets of a larger diameter to do the same job. I will wait like the rest of us for the RV-12 prototype to fly, but my guess would be that Vans drops the pop rivet idea as well as the removeable wing option on production RV-12 models.