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Question on Oshkosh 2011 Bonanza formation flight

Ron Lee

Well Known Member
This was posted in another thread and no one seems to want to answer questions:

"Here's some video of the Bonanza flight - for those that not get to enjoy it in person...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGYCx46FVbU "

Towards the end there appears to be a lot of movement. I asked what was happening. Was it significant turbulence or something else?

One plane of the lead four drops down and away. Was that planned or an accepted escape maneuver?

Just prior to that event, the photo ship seems to drop well below a plane ahead. My thought was that a mid-air was possible. Again, what happened?

I do not have a FFI card so that explains my ignorance on the subject.
 
Bad air

Cool video. I saw it too and was waiting for something bad. Looks like tip vortices from the formation in front of them. The plane doing the video and the lead looked pretty close. Glad it worked out.
 
From the video, it looks as though the 2nd 4 ship was riding high. Lead putting himself and the others in his flight in wake turbulence. This is a common error and can happen to anyone.

The lead 4 ship hit a couple bounces and looses flight dicipline. Slot decended, flight scatters, sending wash to the planes behind them, causing more breakdown in flight dicipline behind them.

This can and does happen.

The only real serious problem is when the slot decended away from his flight. There is no way of knowing what he might have been seeing or experiencing at that time. He may have had a safety pilot telling him things. There may have been radio calls. He may have lost sight of his flight and decided his only out was down where he know there were no planes. But its pretty easy to see that when he saw his number 2 left wing at his 10o-clock roll and kick towards him, he moved and decended.
 
I have no comment on the formation flying, but the mass arrival of those guys was quite entertaining. We were sitting right on the edge of the grass down at the classics area, cocktails in hand, and alternately laughing and cringing. Quite a show!
 
Keepin it clean

Lets make sure to avoid bashing here and just learn from mistakes so that we (as a community) can be better pilots.
I witnessed the flight from the ground. The video confirmed my suspicion of one wingman getting bounced around pretty bad causing others to get out. I think the planes that departed the formation were doing the safest thing possible in that situation. Get clear, avoid an accident, stay safe. It had me pretty scared for a second but I am sure glad everything turned out O.K.
 
From the video, it looks as though the 2nd 4 ship was riding high. Lead putting himself and the others in his flight in wake turbulence. This is a common error and can happen to anyone.

The lead 4 ship hit a couple bounces and looses flight dicipline. Slot decended, flight scatters, sending wash to the planes behind them, causing more breakdown in flight dicipline behind them.

This can and does happen.

The only real serious problem is when the slot decended away from his flight. There is no way of knowing what he might have been seeing or experiencing at that time. He may have had a safety pilot telling him things. There may have been radio calls. He may have lost sight of his flight and decided his only out was down where he know there were no planes. But its pretty easy to see that when he saw his number 2 left wing at his 10o-clock roll and kick towards him, he moved and decended.

Good analysis! The group of 8 Bonanzas for reasons unknown to this pilot flying #8, closed the gap on the lead group of 5 Barons, but did not change our vertical positioning as we closed. Thus we got the living "bleep" kicked out of us by wake turbulence. #4 in the Bonaza group elected to bail towards terra firma, and when he did, further dispersed the 2nd set of 4. #5 (my lead) gave the 1st set some more room to fix themselves, and for a couple of seconds I was eating the glareshield to make sure I could keep him in site.
Not one of our better moments, but actually from where I was sitting, seeing everything, it was quite controlled. #5 got on the radio pretty quickly and vectored the #4 back into position for our arrival back on Rwy 27.

My apologies for being a bit short with my reply last night. I don't know the qualifications of some on this board to express their expert opinions, and after watching the mess on the AOPA board, I was a bit miffed. Lots of learning went on with this both by the folks flying/leading and by many of us who have sat and tried to analyize the video.

I got my formation start at Anderson, SC in my RV, and to this day, find it the most rewarding thing I do in an airplane. If it was easy, it wouldn't be as fulfilling.

Thanks for taking the time to listen.
 
The Bonanza guys have a clinic twice a year across town from me. Keep in mind they are flying heavier airplanes that are much less nimble, and don't have the visibility we do. Station keeping references are not as tight. And they don't get together as often impromptu as the typical RV formation pilot. Given all of the above they're having fun in a safe and organized manner.
 
Vernier Throttles

I wonder if this happened because most Bonanzas have vernier throttles. I have read numerous times on this forum how vernier throttles are unacceptable for formation flying.

Just asking...
 
I wonder if this happened because most Bonanzas have vernier throttles. I have read numerous times on this forum how vernier throttles are unacceptable for formation flying.

Just asking...

Vernier throttles have nothing to do with successfull formation flying. Once you learn the "claw" it is just as easy as a standard throttle. The first few times you do it, you come into the debrief with a deformed hand, but just like you learn to relax the death grip on the yoke/stick, you learn to relax the throttle hand as well.
 
Now with info on what is happening I see a lot more now than yesterday. The lead four aircraft (assuming four in a diamond) appear to have single engines...not Barons. I am referring to the segment starting at 1:52
 
Now with info on what is happening I see a lot more now than yesterday. The lead four aircraft (assuming four in a diamond) appear to have single engines...not Barons. I am referring to the segment starting at 1:52

If you look at the end of the runway at 1:52 you will see the 5 Barons. They were followed by our flight of 8 Bonanzas, then there was another 7 ship of Bonanza behind the camera ship. Hope that helps.
 
Vernier throttles have nothing to do with successfull formation flying. Once you learn the "claw" it is just as easy as a standard throttle. The first few times you do it, you come into the debrief with a deformed hand, but just like you learn to relax the death grip on the yoke/stick, you learn to relax the throttle hand as well.

Please expand on this. Your statement runs contrary to everything that I've ever heard, read or experienced, but I'm willing to listen and learn.
 
Thanks Nathan. I did not know if they played a role in what happened to the group of eight. I will re-read previous posts and may further understand what is happening.

It is amazing what a little education/analysis/insight does to enhance knowing what to look for...compared to what I missed when I initially saw the video.

I also wonder how much planning and rehearsing the 40 plane RV formation will require to perform as well as I heard they did with 35 planes.
 
Please expand on this. Your statement runs contrary to everything that I've ever heard, read or experienced, but I'm willing to listen and learn.

Just don't use the vernier portion of the mechanism. Push the button and use it like a regular throttle. I have heard of some folks using some sort of velcro arrangement to keep the button pushed in, but have never needed it myself.

Personally, I anchor my forearm against my right thigh, push the button with my thumb, and move the throttle back and forth as necessary to keep perfect :p position.
 
Please expand on this. Your statement runs contrary to everything that I've ever heard, read or experienced, but I'm willing to listen and learn.

Jeff,

I believe the 'no verniers allowed in formations' is something to consider, but not an absolute. The first real fingertip formation I flew was with Nate and he taught me the 'claw' technique, which is just keeping the button pushed in. Of course, I also tried the twist method when my hand became sore...but it's adjustments aren't quick enough much of the time. With practice, the soreness does not occur.

So, if one was going to go with a totalitarian/conservative/simplified rule, it's logical to just say no vernier...ever. However, with a little more understanding and training, vernier seems just fine in a Bonanza formation. I can't comment on its validity in all formations though. Maybe in other situations even keeping the button pushed in isn't acceptable.

I guess the bottom line is that with a few exceptions, I'd be suspect of absolute statements.

Jim
 
Jim,

I think your last post is a fair statement concerning vernier throttles and Bonanza formation flying. There are a lot of talented Bo form pilots, and many great Bo groups; and many have verniers.

Jeff may be coming from an RV perspective, and though I can't speak for all RV formation groups, our West Coast clinics do not allow verniers at all. We won't train a newbie with one, and our demo and performance team pilots don't have them either. I've seen other RV-specific clinic announcements that include the same restriction.

So although its a rule the RV group I fly with adheres to, we have also flown in mixed groups with Bo pilots, and we certainly would not try to dictate their equipment regs. They have obviously adapted and overcome, and can fly at a very high level of performance! Not sure I would enjoy the claw...sounds pretty painful, but I guess they get purty strong!

Perhaps it explains why, after the last mixed RV/Bo show I flew, the Bo guys were all hanging out in the hangar, crushing beer cans with their bare hands! ;)

Or was that because they were all Navy pilots! :cool:

As for the OSH show, I can't improve upon what Kahuna and Nick said (great discussion, by the way). I will say that I've been rocked by bumps and wake in a large formation, and it can be pretty testing. The fact that nobody swapped paint, and they used good comms to get the flight back together is a testement to their skill and discipline. A bit of silver lining, in what was probably a very candid debrief...after a flight suit or two were changed! Like Kahuna said, it happens!

Cheers,
Bob
 
I have no axe to grind here on this thread, I just want to point out that IMHO the way all the VAFers who have posted on this thread has been exemplary. I read threads that sometimes drop into what can only be called as abuse of a poster for expressing an opinion. To be honest as soon as I see this I generally stop reading the thread. It is the same with crash reports and the speculation that some people love to conduct before all the facts are known.

To be honest, I think after looking at the video and seeing the explanations, the Bonanza guys did a great job of avoiding each other. The fact that this was at an event where there were thousands of people attending was unfortunate.
 
I also wonder how much planning and rehearsing the 40 plane RV formation will require to perform as well as I heard they did with 35 planes.
Only three things required for good and safe formation flights: from a flight of 4 to 40: Practice, Practice and more Practice!
 
I have flown both and a lot with a "push pull" throttle--not necessairily a vernier as there is no center "lock" button. I like the push pull best as you can use the base and the prop knob as anchors for the rest of your hand. With a throttle quadrant, I feel less precise, as if your elbow is flying all over the place, and there is no real "anchor". I think the disqualification of the push pull has no merit. Can someone please give a valid reason for the disqualification, as I have yet to see valid reasoning regarding this.

Mark
 
OK,

I'm sure that despite how I phrase this or the type of "smiley" I use this is going to come off sounding harsh, but that's not my intent.

With ALL the recent discussion lately concerning risk/reward (can anyone remember all the way back to last week?), how can anyone really justify a mass formation arrival at OSH? I mean really, a formation arrival in the military is a practical means of getting a large number of aircraft on the ground quickly. In the civilian world however, this has almost no relevance. In fact, in this case, I'm guessing there was a lot of time collecting all the aircraft at a rendezvous location, briefings, and prep. In other words, LOTS of time spent just so you could give the illusion of "efficiently" recovering a large number of aircraft. It's like creating a problem just so you look good solving it.

So we've heard from several sources that this was not the finest example of a formation arrival and admittedly produced some "tense" moments. We've demonstrated plenty of risk, with ZERO practical value, so isn't this just a sanctioned form of "showing off"? Where is the outrage I'm so used to seeing on this forum?
 
OK,

I'm sure that despite how I phrase this or the type of "smiley" I use this is going to come off sounding harsh, but that's not my intent.

With ALL the recent discussion lately concerning risk/reward (can anyone remember all the way back to last week?), how can anyone really justify a mass formation arrival at OSH? I mean really, a formation arrival in the military is a practical means of getting a large number of aircraft on the ground quickly. In the civilian world however, this has almost no relevance. In fact, in this case, I'm guessing there was a lot of time collecting all the aircraft at a rendezvous location, briefings, and prep. In other words, LOTS of time spent just so you could give the illusion of "efficiently" recovering a large number of aircraft. It's like creating a problem just so you look good solving it.


So we've heard from several sources that this was not the finest example of a formation arrival and admittedly produced some "tense" moments. We've demonstrated plenty of risk, with ZERO practical value, so isn't this just a sanctioned form of "showing off"? Where is the outrage I'm so used to seeing on this forum?

Michael,
You argument could be used for any type of aerial demonstration. Formation or otherwise. Show flying is done for many reasons, none of which may have anything to do with practicality.

With risk, it is done to perhaps inspire. "thats pretty darn neat" is just but one feeling pilots hope to generate with a formation fly over. Or perhaps, "I did not know that was possible in a Bonanza. Neat! I think Ill take my Bonanza and go get some training and try that."

Showing whats possible, whether it be Tucker in a bipe, RV-s in a formation fly-over, or a Bonanza doing solo aerobatics (Pat Epps as an example), gives folks the sense that they can do more, inspire to do more, with their plane and themselves. Any demonstration of planes, dudes with wing bat suits, or anythings else, gives people feelings of reaching for the stars.

You cant demand the common sense of it. You could argue that some loon will see a man jump off a cliff in a bat suit and go try it for himself and die. Or see a formation of Bonanza's and go try it without any training. And surely that happens and is part of the trade off of professionals demonstrating skill to others that dont have it.

But in the end, you will find that for pilots demonstrating a skill of some type, it is in fact to look cool, to give folks good feelings about it, to inspire one to achive more than they thought might be possible with their RV or Bonanza or whatever. Anything being done of course always has risk. Accidents happen to smart, talented, well trained, best in the business pilots. Its a managed risk they accept.

I could go on but you get the jist. For me, the smile of a young boy or girls face who is admiring what we do, might just get him in a plane as a pilot one day and inspire others just the same.
 
Since this was the third time they were flying over the same course in a very short time I'd say they were flying through some of their own wake turbulence.
 
OK,

I'm sure that despite how I phrase this or the type of "smiley" I use this is going to come off sounding harsh, but that's not my intent.

With ALL the recent discussion lately concerning risk/reward (can anyone remember all the way back to last week?), how can anyone really justify a mass formation arrival at OSH? I mean really, a formation arrival in the military is a practical means of getting a large number of aircraft on the ground quickly. In the civilian world however, this has almost no relevance. In fact, in this case, I'm guessing there was a lot of time collecting all the aircraft at a rendezvous location, briefings, and prep. In other words, LOTS of time spent just so you could give the illusion of "efficiently" recovering a large number of aircraft. It's like creating a problem just so you look good solving it.

So we've heard from several sources that this was not the finest example of a formation arrival and admittedly produced some "tense" moments. We've demonstrated plenty of risk, with ZERO practical value, so isn't this just a sanctioned form of "showing off"? Where is the outrage I'm so used to seeing on this forum?


Like my mom used to say, "It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt".
 
Since this was the third time they were flying over the same course in a very short time I'd say they were flying through some of their own wake turbulence.

I doubt that. My vague recollection of wake turbulence sink rate is 1000 ft/min. Even if it is a third of that for GA aircraft it probably rules it out as a causal factor.

If you look at the lead group of four at the end they seem to be smooth. Exception may be the one who dropped out (slot?).
 
Michael,
...But in the end, you will find that for pilots demonstrating a skill of some type, it is in fact to look cool, to give folks good feelings about it, to inspire one to achive more than they thought might be possible with their RV or Bonanza or whatever. Anything being done of course always has risk. Accidents happen to smart, talented, well trained, best in the business pilots. Its a managed risk they accept...

Thank you. This was the answer I was looking for, and I'm glad you had the "courage" to admit that sometimes we don't need a real solid justification for our actions. Sometimes "fun", "cool" or otherwise is plenty good enough. I'm with you 100%.

That said, I need to clarify my earlier post. That rant was triggered by my mistaken recollection that this was part of the "mass arrival" of Bonanzas. There were so many of these mass arrivals - including a few with laps around the pattern - that I got them mixed up. While I personally am not all that moved by a formation of spam cans (or anything with less than 1000 cubic inches under the hood, for that matter), I understand the difference between a demo flight and the barely organized gaggle of mass arrivals. it's the latter that really gets my head shaking. Considering the abuse we took a few months ago for the "hotdogging" in the pattern, and then our own internal split concerning the merits of non standard pattern entry, it just stick in my craw that we would now embrace this form of non standard entry (mass arrival).

But I digress, this thread is not about the mass arrival, so disregard.

(but if we ever start one, I'm ready!) ;)
 
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