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autopilots and ILS

P

pck

I'm New Here
Hello,
I'm a future RV7A builder and i was just think'n down the road... when I choose an EFIS and autopilot.
I would like to be able to navigate via VOR and GPSS, shoot fully coupled ILS and GPS (including vertical). Do all the various AP's out there (Trio, Tru trak, Dynon, Garmin, AF...etc....) have these capabilities?? I was told that Trio only navigates by GPS.
Thanks for your comments

pck
 
A Trutrak Digiflight II VSGV with an AFS EFIS and a ARINC 429 converter will fly coupled GPS, VOR, and ILS approaches with vertical guidance. It is the only one I have any experience with.
 
pck said:
Hello,
I'm a future RV7A builder and i was just think'n down the road... when I choose an EFIS and autopilot.
I would like to be able to navigate via VOR and GPSS, shoot fully coupled ILS and GPS (including vertical). Do all the various AP's out there (Trio, Tru trak, Dynon, Garmin, AF...etc....) have these capabilities?? I was told that Trio only navigates by GPS.
Thanks for your comments

pck
Click to expand...

Whatever answer you receive now will be obsolete by the time you are ready for your panel. Rest assured the capabilities you want will be available from several vendors....avionics continue to advance at a rapid pace.

Best wishes for an enjoyable project!
 
Sam Buchanan said:
Whatever answer you receive now will be obsolete by the time you are ready for your panel. Rest assured the capabilities you want will be available from several vendors....avionics continue to advance at a rapid pace.

Best wishes for an enjoyable project!
Click to expand...

Ditto! What Sam said is spot on. This stuff is progressing as fast as PC's. The cool part is that whatever you install today will have a software upgrade next week that will add to its already impressive functionality.
 
AltonD said:
A Trutrak Digiflight II VSGV with an AFS EFIS and a ARINC 429 converter will fly coupled GPS, VOR, and ILS approaches with vertical guidance. It is the only one I have any experience with.
Click to expand...

This is exactly true for GRT including using their own A/P. Shooting an ILS approach while coupled to the A/P is extremely simple and accurate.
 
Most APs depend on the EFIS to convert the older analog data (i.e. ILS) to appropriate steering commands. The only one that I'm aware that natively supports everything is the TruTrak Sorcerer. Fortunately, with most of the popular EFIS solutions, there is no real need to spend the extra $$ for those features.

bob
 
I have a question too

Can I ask those in the know if my GNS430 and Trutrak ADI II is suposed to fly a VOR approach. Tried one this morning while practising IF and it showed the approach on the GNS430 screen but did not want to fly it.

Is it normal or did I do something wrong?
 
Janekom said:
Can I ask those in the know if my GNS430 and Trutrak ADI II is suposed to fly a VOR approach. Tried one this morning while practising IF and it showed the approach on the GNS430 screen but did not want to fly it.

Is it normal or did I do something wrong?
Click to expand...

Your TT A/P can not receive nor follow VOR course guildlines directly from the 430 but if you have an EIFS like GRT or AFS, then GNS430 will send the course guidelines to the EIFS and the EIFS can drive the A/P.

Hope this helps.
 
Thank you very much.
Strange that it will fly a flight plan or a direct to course but not the VOR :confused:
 
Janekom said:
Thank you very much.
Strange that it will fly a flight plan or a direct to course but not the VOR :confused:
Click to expand...
You can certainly put the VOR as your waypoint and it will fly to it but not all VOR approaches are located in an airport. These are two completely different thing.

But it should follow to a VOR as a way point OK.
 
In a few weeks I'm going to be ordering a Trio Pro Pilot and have been doing some thinking on this same subject. I have an INS-422 in my rocket panel along with a 396 so it goes without saying that GPSS isn't part of the game plan. The conclusion I've come to is it just isn't a big deal to fly the approach by hand...or at least in my case dollars spent vs. the very small percentage of my flying that is going to be shooting approaches just doesn't justify spending the money on a 430W to get this capability.
 
Let me try again.
Yes it does fly to anything one can think of in the data base if you have it as a waypoint or a direct to point, but when you fly to a place with for example a VOR approach you then press the "Approach" button on the unit.
It will then give you the approach options for that airfielfd. In this case I have selected the VOR approach. You then select it and press "Activate". Then it shows the approach in plan form on the 430 but the AP will not fly it. At least this is what it looked like yesterday.

So it seems that while the 430 gives data to the AP in order to fly to points, the moment you select and activate an approach it stops sending the data?
 
The 430w does not output the VOR/LOC/GS signals over the serial port or as GPSS/GPSV. It does send it out of the analog ports and out of the 429 Nav ports but you need an auto pilot that can accept this data. (TT Sorcerer)


If you have the VSGV version of the TT and you have an EFIS that can transfigure the NAV signals into GPSS/GPSV signals, you can use that to fly the approach.
 
On the 430W you will get LPV guidance if you select the RNAV approach. And selecting an RNAV approach will give you GPSS steering.

I've been wondering why the Sorcerer is the only AP available that can fly a coupled localizer/gs.
 
Last edited:
Brantel said:
The 430w does not output the VOR/LOC/GS signals over the serial port or as GPSS/GPSV. It does send it out of the analog ports and out of the 429 Nav ports but you need an auto pilot that can accept this data. (TT Sorcerer)


If you have the VSGV version of the TT and you have an EFIS that can transfigure the NAV signals into GPSS/GPSV signals, you can use that to fly the approach.
Click to expand...

Spot on here! The ADI Pilot II has RS232 input only.

I like to use the term transmogrify. :)
 
Thanks guys!
So Lucas - what are my options without getting rid of what I have?
Thanks.
 
Janekom said:
Thanks guys!
So Lucas - what are my options without getting rid of what I have?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

Without getting rid of a flight instrument, I would say wait for the Gemini 880. If you don't need the ADI as a backup instrument, you could go with a DII VSGV or Sorcerer. The Sorcerer is the one that will do an ILS. For the DII VSGV to fly an ILS you'll need an EFIS. Thanks!

rzbill said:
LMAO, Lister. ;)

Thanks for the recent Digi II inspection and repair (for others, it was me ham handing the 1/8 npt fittings into the plastic block at the back. It split).

Received and installed last week.
Click to expand...

Glad to help!
 
I have a 430W that has the approach in it. The GRT HX can use the 430W GPS signal and data base to fly the ILS. My Trio Pro has GPSS/GPSV. It follows the GRT. In short, I can fly a coupled ILS.
Hope this helps,

John
 
johngoodman said:
I have a 430W that has the approach in it. The GRT HX can use the 430W GPS signal and data base to fly the ILS. My Trio Pro has GPSS/GPSV. It follows the GRT. In short, I can fly a coupled ILS.
Hope this helps,

John
Click to expand...

If you pay attention to the message on the 430, it says something to the effect that the GPS coordinates are only for a reference and not for guidance.

For an ILS/VOR approach, for it to be legal, you must select the VLOC button to point to the VOR and NOT GPS on the 430. Only then you are sending the Loc/glideslope signal to the auto pilot and in that case this can be done only via a supported EIFS and not directly from 430.
 
pck said:
Lucas
What does the EFIS do that allows you to fly VOR/ILS with the AP?
Click to expand...

You need the AP IV and either an SL30 or a GNS430/530 (and I assume a GTN650/750) and our TS-43 ARINC Module. That'll let you fly the ILS and display the VOR. It won't fly the VOR off the actual VOR signal at this time.
 
So Lucas, the vor/ils is an analog signal? And the efis converts it to a digital signal so the AP can use it? Does the arinc box do this also?
 
The 430 can also output vor/loc/gs data over the NAV ARINC ports. Some EFIS units can take this data and transform it into GPSS/GPSV signals that the GPSS/GPSV enabled autopilots can understand.

The ADI pilot does not have ARINC ports so won't accept GPSS/GPSV.

Some EFIS units can also convert this ARINC NAV data to NMEA data that the ADI pilot can understand but this will not have any vertical guidance nor will it be GPS steering (it will overfly waypoints and then turn back).
 
pck said:
So Lucas, the vor/ils is an analog signal? And the efis converts it to a digital signal so the AP can use it? Does the arinc box do this also?
Click to expand...

Yes and no. :) The ARINC box takes the digital ARINC VOR/ILS output of a 430/530 and converts it to an RS232 signal that the EFIS and EFIS AP can use.
 
Dual ARINC 429 inputs

Hey Lucas,

When the Gemini AP is released will it have dual ARINC 429 inputs?????:confused: It would be nice because the Vertial guidance is not yet implemented into the Skyview software so I dont want to send the AP control through the Skyview.

The GTN650 has an ARINC 429 output for both NAV and GPS data and it would be nice to just have it all integrated into the Gemini and not have to use an External switch.

By the way I dont know if this is possible but would be nice.
 
The specs on the Gemini AP only show GPSS/GPSV capability not NAV....Typically TT has only had this feature on their Sorcerer AP. IF you are expecting to couple the Gemini to an ILS directly, I believe you will be disappointed.

Dynon historically has not provided full EFIS control of a third party AP. So even when they do implement vertical coupling for the Skyview using the Dynon AP, not sure what if anything you will gain in a setup with a third party AP.
 
Brantel said:
The specs on the Gemini AP only show GPSS/GPSV capability not NAV....Typically TT has only had this feature on their Sorcerer AP. IF you are expecting to couple the Gemini to an ILS directly, I believe you will be disappointed.

Dynon historically has not provided full EFIS control of a third party AP. So even when they do implement vertical coupling for the Skyview using the Dynon AP, not sure what if anything you will gain in a setup with a third party AP.
Click to expand...

Thanks Brandel,


I was thinking it may be that way. however with the GNT 650 outputing arinc 429 Nav data instead of the analog nav signals I think it should be an easy interface.

Could be wrong.
 
ILS approach capability has not been ruled out of the Gemini AP. At this time I can't guarantee it will be in there, but we have some options and we will explore all of them. ;)
 
The 430/530/430W/530W have done this for years. TT just never supported it in nothing but the Sorcerer. Not sure why???

Wesael said:
Thanks Brandel,


I was thinking it may be that way. however with the GNT 650 outputing arinc 429 Nav data instead of the analog nav signals I think it should be an easy interface.

Could be wrong.
Click to expand...
 
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