Van's Air Force
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inst. comp. check, waas only?
- Thread starter billnaz
- Start date
is it possible...yes. Likely no. The PTS still requires other types of approaches. Possible if you find a really reasonable inspector and convince him - they are human after all.
Once you earn your instrument ticket you are free to fly the WAAS only plane in IMC all you want.
my opinion only
Once you earn your instrument ticket you are free to fly the WAAS only plane in IMC all you want.
my opinion only
I am not a CFII but the following is from FAA-S-8081-4E with changes 1 and 2 (Instrument Rating Practical Test Standards)
Instrument Proficiency Check. 14 CFR part 61, section 61.57(d), sets
forth the requirements for an instrument proficiency check. The person
giving that check shall use the standards and procedures contained in
this PTS when administering the check. A representative number of
TASKS, as determined by the examiner/instructor, must be selected to
assure the competence of the applicant to operate in the IFR
environment. As a minimum, the applicant must demonstrate the ability
to perform the TASKS as listed in the above chart. The person giving
the check should develop a scenario that incorporates as many required
tasks as practical to assess the pilot?s ADM and risk management skills
during the IPC.
Based on what that says, I would say no. Let us know if you can get one competed without other equipment.
Instrument Proficiency Check. 14 CFR part 61, section 61.57(d), sets
forth the requirements for an instrument proficiency check. The person
giving that check shall use the standards and procedures contained in
this PTS when administering the check. A representative number of
TASKS, as determined by the examiner/instructor, must be selected to
assure the competence of the applicant to operate in the IFR
environment. As a minimum, the applicant must demonstrate the ability
to perform the TASKS as listed in the above chart. The person giving
the check should develop a scenario that incorporates as many required
tasks as practical to assess the pilot?s ADM and risk management skills
during the IPC.
Based on what that says, I would say no. Let us know if you can get one competed without other equipment.
terrykohler
Well Known Member
Think of the IPC as an instrument Check Ride
The requirement today is basically a full check ride. The PTS Rating Task Table requires all of Section VI Area of Operation to be covered. Task A is non-precision approaches. Two are required, and they must utilize two different types of navigational aids. There is no wiggle room here for the Instructor/Examiner.
From a practical standpoint, Ken from Jacksonville is also correct, and there's been a fair amount of discussion on the subject of GPS only instrument flight in these forums. My take on limited equipment instrument flight is that it should only be undertaken by someone very proficient, with a clear understanding of procedures and regulations, and a willingness to quickly declare an emergency if GPS signal is lost in IMC.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
The requirement today is basically a full check ride. The PTS Rating Task Table requires all of Section VI Area of Operation to be covered. Task A is non-precision approaches. Two are required, and they must utilize two different types of navigational aids. There is no wiggle room here for the Instructor/Examiner.
From a practical standpoint, Ken from Jacksonville is also correct, and there's been a fair amount of discussion on the subject of GPS only instrument flight in these forums. My take on limited equipment instrument flight is that it should only be undertaken by someone very proficient, with a clear understanding of procedures and regulations, and a willingness to quickly declare an emergency if GPS signal is lost in IMC.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
craigvince
Well Known Member
The PTS says you have to perform 3 different instrument approaches, and 1 of the 3 must be a precision approach. Since a GPS may be substituted for an ADF, you should (?) be able to do an NDB approach, a VOR approach that has a GPS overlay and an WAAS GPS approach (precision).
Really, its up to your examiner how he wants to interpret the rules.
Really, its up to your examiner how he wants to interpret the rules.
terrykohler
Well Known Member
From the PTS...
Section VI, Item A..."choices must utilize two different types of navigatonal aids. Some examples of navigational aids for the purpose of this part are: NDB, VOR, LOC, LDA, GPS, or RNAV".
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
Section VI, Item A..."choices must utilize two different types of navigatonal aids. Some examples of navigational aids for the purpose of this part are: NDB, VOR, LOC, LDA, GPS, or RNAV".
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
pierre smith
Well Known Member
A sticky wicket, eh?
Methinks that before long, we'll see a rewrite since LOC and ADF systems are disappearing anyway. The new generation CFII's and examiners are already seeing this coming and the older generation examiners are probably the ones who'll give you a harder time.
Best,
Methinks that before long, we'll see a rewrite since LOC and ADF systems are disappearing anyway. The new generation CFII's and examiners are already seeing this coming and the older generation examiners are probably the ones who'll give you a harder time.
Best,
WAAS RNAV instrument comptency check
With reference to the nav system only and assuming your nav system is a TSO-C146 RNAV WAAS unit installed IAW AC-20-138 (Airworthiness Approval of GNSS Equipment), yes, I could give an instrument comptency check.
My answer is based on the Instrument Pilot PTS (FAA-S-8081-4E, chg 1&2), page 7. The "Aircraft and Equipment Req'd for the Practical Test" has the verbiage "or area navigation (RNAV) and one precision approach:" (and LPV is an option for the precision approach) included that addresses RNAV equipped aircraft.
The FAA inspector and designated examiner orders 8900.1 and 8900.2 refer back to the PTS for equipage requirements.
You could expect that knowledge of information for RNAV operations in the national airspace system is expected. The AIM, AC-90-100a, AC-90-105, AC-90-107, and AC-90-108 contain a lot information required for RNAV operations that will help you comply with FARs.
With reference to the nav system only and assuming your nav system is a TSO-C146 RNAV WAAS unit installed IAW AC-20-138 (Airworthiness Approval of GNSS Equipment), yes, I could give an instrument comptency check.
My answer is based on the Instrument Pilot PTS (FAA-S-8081-4E, chg 1&2), page 7. The "Aircraft and Equipment Req'd for the Practical Test" has the verbiage "or area navigation (RNAV) and one precision approach:" (and LPV is an option for the precision approach) included that addresses RNAV equipped aircraft.
The FAA inspector and designated examiner orders 8900.1 and 8900.2 refer back to the PTS for equipage requirements.
You could expect that knowledge of information for RNAV operations in the national airspace system is expected. The AIM, AC-90-100a, AC-90-105, AC-90-107, and AC-90-108 contain a lot information required for RNAV operations that will help you comply with FARs.
Just to correct a previous post:
certified GPS can be used in lieu of ADF for all operations EXCEPT it cannot be used for an NDB approach (unless it says NDB or RNAV(GPS) ). Whatever appears in the title of the approach must be the primary guidance.
My reading of the PTS is that, strictly speaking, the applicant for an IPC is to demonstrate 2 non-precision approaches using DIFFERENT nav aids. The GPS is one, he needs one more. My vote is unfortunately "no, he can't do it in his GPS-only aircraft".
certified GPS can be used in lieu of ADF for all operations EXCEPT it cannot be used for an NDB approach (unless it says NDB or RNAV(GPS) ). Whatever appears in the title of the approach must be the primary guidance.
My reading of the PTS is that, strictly speaking, the applicant for an IPC is to demonstrate 2 non-precision approaches using DIFFERENT nav aids. The GPS is one, he needs one more. My vote is unfortunately "no, he can't do it in his GPS-only aircraft".
I have been thinking about this subject, and I have changed my mind to vote "yes, you can get an IPC in an aircraft with only a WAAS GPS, with some help". Here's what I'd do (I am a CFII) for this pilot:
I have a handheld nav-com (Sporty's). The VOR is pretty crude, it shows only a digital presentation of the VOR radial. (I think newer versions are better than this). The PTS allows combining various elements. So at some point, I'd give the pilot the handheld, turn off his GPS, and have him demonstrate a VOR approach using just the handheld. If I was really mean, I'd turn off his primary EFIS, too, and require him to use his backup (assuming he had one). I believe this would satisfy a requirement from the "Emergency Procedures" element, as well as one of the "Non precision approach (VOR)" elements. If he was using his backup attitude instruments, it would also satisfy the partial panel requirements. Since I don't practice emergencies in actual IMC, this would have to be done under VFR.
Note to Dan:
"My answer is based on the Instrument Pilot PTS (FAA-S-8081-4E, chg 1&2), page 7. The "Aircraft and Equipment Req'd for the Practical Test" has the verbiage "or area navigation (RNAV) and one precision approach:" (and LPV is an option for the precision approach) included that addresses RNAV equipped aircraft."
I think you're mis-reading the PTS. I did the same thing the first time I read it. Preceding all this it says "two non precision approaches..." and then there is a long list, ending in ".....or area navigation (RNAV)". Then it begins the list of precision approaches. It really needs a semi colon after the (RNAV) to make the meaning clear.
I have a handheld nav-com (Sporty's). The VOR is pretty crude, it shows only a digital presentation of the VOR radial. (I think newer versions are better than this). The PTS allows combining various elements. So at some point, I'd give the pilot the handheld, turn off his GPS, and have him demonstrate a VOR approach using just the handheld. If I was really mean, I'd turn off his primary EFIS, too, and require him to use his backup (assuming he had one). I believe this would satisfy a requirement from the "Emergency Procedures" element, as well as one of the "Non precision approach (VOR)" elements. If he was using his backup attitude instruments, it would also satisfy the partial panel requirements. Since I don't practice emergencies in actual IMC, this would have to be done under VFR.
Note to Dan:
"My answer is based on the Instrument Pilot PTS (FAA-S-8081-4E, chg 1&2), page 7. The "Aircraft and Equipment Req'd for the Practical Test" has the verbiage "or area navigation (RNAV) and one precision approach:" (and LPV is an option for the precision approach) included that addresses RNAV equipped aircraft."
I think you're mis-reading the PTS. I did the same thing the first time I read it. Preceding all this it says "two non precision approaches..." and then there is a long list, ending in ".....or area navigation (RNAV)". Then it begins the list of precision approaches. It really needs a semi colon after the (RNAV) to make the meaning clear.
