Phyrcooler
Well Known Member
It has been awfully quiet. Was Van's at SnF? Anybody hear anything? Or is Van's going dark hoping to surprise us all at Oshkosh when they fly one in? 
Van's Air Force
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Looking for an update...
- Thread starter Phyrcooler
- Start date
more RV12 info
I talked with the chief engineer at SnF. No hope for the 12 this summer. Hoping to take orders next year at SnF. Looks like pulled rivets; 20 gal fuel tank; fewer parts; and somewhat easier to build. Remember this is a LSPlane. Just hope they get it done soon since I'm already retired and not getting any younger.
I talked with the chief engineer at SnF. No hope for the 12 this summer. Hoping to take orders next year at SnF. Looks like pulled rivets; 20 gal fuel tank; fewer parts; and somewhat easier to build. Remember this is a LSPlane. Just hope they get it done soon since I'm already retired and not getting any younger.
Phyrcooler
Well Known Member
Sounds interesting...
I am comparing different SLA's as a way of obtaining plane ownership in a cost effective way. Being able to cruise at 172 speeds, in a new plane is a good place to be - when compared to what you get if you buy an old worn out aircraft, or continue to rent the tired, threadbare birds at most of the FBO's. Yeah, I'd love to do a -9 or -7 (Actually dream of an -8, but pretty sure the wife would push for a side by side). However, Cost and construction time push it out of reality.
if Van can help us get into a completed -12 for considerably less... with quick-build features that doesn't turn it into a 3 year project - that makes it obtainable for me.
I am comparing different SLA's as a way of obtaining plane ownership in a cost effective way. Being able to cruise at 172 speeds, in a new plane is a good place to be - when compared to what you get if you buy an old worn out aircraft, or continue to rent the tired, threadbare birds at most of the FBO's. Yeah, I'd love to do a -9 or -7 (Actually dream of an -8, but pretty sure the wife would push for a side by side). However, Cost and construction time push it out of reality.
if Van can help us get into a completed -12 for considerably less... with quick-build features that doesn't turn it into a 3 year project - that makes it obtainable for me.
Phyrcooler
Well Known Member
Ken
Just saw your post as I was writing when yours went up. It is a little disappointing to hear. I had hoped they'd be in production by the end of the year.
I know that there are a lot of new planes coming into the LSA market - and believe that some such as Zenith and Sonex will eat a lot of the market share. Don't know much about the Jabiru - but due to pricing and their engines, think they will get the high-wing market.
Van's has a great reputation, which is part of why I am waiting to see what they bring out. I especially like the idea of the "cabin-forward" idea - and being able to see down over the leading edge. I know that Van won't rush to market... but at the same time... needs to get into the market to make it cost effective not only for him... but obviously us at the "entry level".
Patiently? waiting...
Just saw your post as I was writing when yours went up. It is a little disappointing to hear. I had hoped they'd be in production by the end of the year.
I know that there are a lot of new planes coming into the LSA market - and believe that some such as Zenith and Sonex will eat a lot of the market share. Don't know much about the Jabiru - but due to pricing and their engines, think they will get the high-wing market.
Van's has a great reputation, which is part of why I am waiting to see what they bring out. I especially like the idea of the "cabin-forward" idea - and being able to see down over the leading edge. I know that Van won't rush to market... but at the same time... needs to get into the market to make it cost effective not only for him... but obviously us at the "entry level".
Patiently? waiting...
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Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
I'm also very interested in how the RV-12 shakes out since I realize that LSA may be an option for me someday. However, I have no illusions about the cost of a fresh RV-12 being much, or any, less than a budget-priced RV-9. An airplane rib, spar, or whatever costs about the same regardless of whether it finally resides in a -9 or a -12. The Rotax engine package is going to go for $11K-$15K which is more than a lot of folks spend on mid-time Lycomings.
The RV-12 no doubt with be a fine aircraft which will probably dominate the LSA kit market. But the cost to put one in the air will likely be very similar to the current Vans two-place models that have reasonably priced engines and avionics.
Sam Buchanan
RV-12 news
I have talked to Van's many times in years past. They will not make Osh this year is a ready refrain. Being very careful of timetables they will not say if they will make it or not. But, they are business and are probably trying hard to make it to stoke the market fire while it is hot. I have no inside info. Just an observation of what goes on up in that great plane mfr in the Williamette Valley.
I have talked to Van's many times in years past. They will not make Osh this year is a ready refrain. Being very careful of timetables they will not say if they will make it or not. But, they are business and are probably trying hard to make it to stoke the market fire while it is hot. I have no inside info. Just an observation of what goes on up in that great plane mfr in the Williamette Valley.
Time, Time, Time, oh what's become of us?
I was hoping to order the tail kit at OSH this year, but I'd rather give Van's the time to do it right the first time. So I'll wait and probably wind up saving time in the long run. Besides, I'm having too much fun with my 9A!
Van's article, in the last Rvaitor, "seemed" a little "lukewarm" from a business case for the 12. He feels most of the market will come from the "new-pilot" sector and I've got to take him at his word, he's certainly has a lot better track record at predicting business than I do! Personally, I feel there is a good market with guys like me:
-Retired
-love flying as much as possible
-Tired of all the WX stress that comes from long distance VFR flights
-Tired of all the fuel expense that comes from long distance flights
(cheaper to fly commercial)
-Not really concerned about medical but may be at some point
-Would still consider flying at 120 Knots a blast
-Enjoyed the building experience, did I really say that, and wouldn't mind
being a "repeat offender".
So I'll wait as long as it takes and order as soon as it's available! I don't know why Van's won't let us put up $100. and "que-up" though.
I was hoping to order the tail kit at OSH this year, but I'd rather give Van's the time to do it right the first time. So I'll wait and probably wind up saving time in the long run. Besides, I'm having too much fun with my 9A!
Van's article, in the last Rvaitor, "seemed" a little "lukewarm" from a business case for the 12. He feels most of the market will come from the "new-pilot" sector and I've got to take him at his word, he's certainly has a lot better track record at predicting business than I do! Personally, I feel there is a good market with guys like me:
-Retired
-love flying as much as possible
-Tired of all the WX stress that comes from long distance VFR flights
-Tired of all the fuel expense that comes from long distance flights
(cheaper to fly commercial)
-Not really concerned about medical but may be at some point
-Would still consider flying at 120 Knots a blast
-Enjoyed the building experience, did I really say that, and wouldn't mind
being a "repeat offender".
So I'll wait as long as it takes and order as soon as it's available! I don't know why Van's won't let us put up $100. and "que-up" though.
westexflyboy
Active Member
Texas Fly-In
May 13, 2006 - Hondo, Texas: Van's rep said RV-12 prototype will likely fly in 6-8 weeks. Shooting for an Oshkosh debut, but disclaimed: "Van will not show the airplane nor release kits until he is satisfied the design is right."
Secondary goal is kit parts by the end of this year. Also confirmed that the RV-12 will have the usual low markup that has made all RV's the best value per performance dollar. Van's will not engage in the supply/demand price hiking that is sweeping the LSA market at present.
May 13, 2006 - Hondo, Texas: Van's rep said RV-12 prototype will likely fly in 6-8 weeks. Shooting for an Oshkosh debut, but disclaimed: "Van will not show the airplane nor release kits until he is satisfied the design is right."
Secondary goal is kit parts by the end of this year. Also confirmed that the RV-12 will have the usual low markup that has made all RV's the best value per performance dollar. Van's will not engage in the supply/demand price hiking that is sweeping the LSA market at present.
If they could do it for 10k out the door, use driven rivets, which I would do anyway - pull rivets just plain suck - then you could have it up in the air for 25 w/vfr instruments. Probably <1,000 hrs build time too I'm guessing.
I can't understand using cherry rivets where there is access. They work, they can corrode, they just suck and are obviously expensive. I have done sheetmetal for 15 years, AP / IA for 23 / 12 respactively, just can't understand using high-priced cherry's when driving rivets is so much fun .
Did I say I hate using cherry's? Then when you go to drill them out as they smoke or wiggle, you trash the skin. Don't get it..........
I'm just hoping they can do it for 10 large
I can't understand using cherry rivets where there is access. They work, they can corrode, they just suck and are obviously expensive. I have done sheetmetal for 15 years, AP / IA for 23 / 12 respactively, just can't understand using high-priced cherry's when driving rivets is so much fun
.Did I say I hate using cherry's?
Then when you go to drill them out as they smoke or wiggle, you trash the skin. Don't get it..........I'm just hoping they can do it for 10 large
I suspect Van's will use the Avex type pulled rivets as does Zenair and others. They are an order of magnitude (or more) cheaper than CherryMax. And with the air powered pullers, the installation is VERY easy and quick...drill, debur and pull.
I first used them first on my BD-4 back in the late '70's. I found them to be very good and when used in a properly designed application, they work very well.
Go visit a Zenair builder (601XL is very popular) and I think you will be impressed...I was when I did a recent Tech Counselor visit.
Deene Ogden
CFII, MEI, CFIG
EAA Flight Advisor, Tech Counselor
BD-4 (first flew in '79, sold 1200 hrs and 22 years later)
DR-107 One Design (flew in '02, sold and now in South Africa)
RV8 QB underway (Fastback, IO-390X, blended airfoil Harzell, James Cowl)
I first used them first on my BD-4 back in the late '70's. I found them to be very good and when used in a properly designed application, they work very well.
Go visit a Zenair builder (601XL is very popular) and I think you will be impressed...I was when I did a recent Tech Counselor visit.
Deene Ogden
CFII, MEI, CFIG
EAA Flight Advisor, Tech Counselor
BD-4 (first flew in '79, sold 1200 hrs and 22 years later)
DR-107 One Design (flew in '02, sold and now in South Africa)
RV8 QB underway (Fastback, IO-390X, blended airfoil Harzell, James Cowl)
Tell us what you really think.EBSB52 said:If they could do it for 10k out the door, use driven rivets, which I would do anyway - pull rivets just plain suck - then you could have it up in the air for 25 w/vfr instruments. Probably <1,000 hrs build time too I'm guessing.
I can't understand using cherry rivets where there is access. They work, they can corrode, they just suck and are obviously expensive. I have done sheetmetal for 15 years, AP / IA for 23 / 12 respactively, just can't understand using high-priced cherry's when driving rivets is so much fun
Did I say I hate using cherry's?
I'm just hoping they can do it for 10 large
Vans is probably using the Avex rivets. More expensive than standard rivets, but much much cheaper than cherry rivets. They might increase the cost about $100 for the whole project. I built a CH640 with pulled rivets, so I speak from the perspective of a typical builder, not an A&P or someone with extensive experience and skill in bucking rivets. After bucking a few thousand rivets I'm sure it is second nature to get consistently good rivets, but it is very attractive to someone with no experience looking for their first project to use pulled rivets. The main reason to use them are to make construction faster and simpler, with no need for a helper. If designed for them, the resulting structure is every bit as strong as one designed for bucked rivets, there are just more rivets. The finished appearance is admitedly not as nice as flush bucked rivets. Riveting becomes a relatively minor part of the building process (overall time spent riveting), taking less time to pull a rivet than it takes to put in a cleco. It is much easier to get a consistent, satisfactory rivet for the average joe builder. They also have a fairly wide grip range, so you really never have to worry about getting the right length rivet, you use the same length on the whole structure. Don't know about the cherry rivets, but the avex rivets are simple to drill out. Just another perspective.
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cjensen
Well Known Member
Yup! Just take a look at the Sonex for a good example of an airplane being designed around pulled rivets. Tony Spicer has a great video with aerobatics being displayed in his Sonex...very strong airplane. I'm also helping a friend of mine build one. Very sturdy construction.sadams said:
13brv3
Well Known Member
The Zenith folks had a good explaination of the solid vs pulled rivet questions. Most pulled rivets are not as strong as driven rivets, so you would normally need more of them. In our case though, the skins are so thin, that you can't use a rivet spacing based only on strength. According to their info, to keep the skin from puckering between the rivets they have to be spaced closer together, so pulled rivets are already plenty strong at that spacing. They do add weight, cost, and drag, but most builders find that to be a reasonable tradeoff for construction ease.
I'm really rooting for the RV-12. I think it's going to dominate the market for sport pilot legal planes, and one of these days, I might need one
Rusty
I'm really rooting for the RV-12. I think it's going to dominate the market for sport pilot legal planes, and one of these days, I might need one
Rusty
The prototype RV-12 is built using LPS rivets. These are the same kind Vans uses to close the flaps and ailerons on their other designs. It is my opinion having used both, the Avex and LPS, that the latter is not the best to use for a full rivet application. Maybe Vans will spend the money and upgrade to the Avex when the kit is put together. Todays cost is about 3 cents difference between the two, the Avex being the higher cost of 8 cents each versus 5 cents for the LPS.
