I've read several times about how the RV tail wheel aircraft do quite well with crosswinds, but can someone give me some numbers to bear that out? For instance, at what cross wind speeds do landings become "challenging" or even unadvised in a TW vs NW? I'm still trying to decide whether to go TW vs NW and plan on flying from a grass strip a good deal of time. If the difference in handling characteristics are minimal, I would probably lean toward a NW just for the improved visibility.
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Crosswinds with tail vs nose wheel
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Kevin Horton
Well Known Member
The ability of the pilot will be a much bigger factor than the limitations of the aircraft. I know some guys who won't their fly their NW aircraft if the crosswinds are greater than 10 kt. Other guys on here will fly their TW RVs with over 30 kt of crosswind.
The most crosswind I've seen so far in my RV-8 was about 15 kt, and it was no big deal at all. I hope to gradually open up the crosswind envelope to quite a bit more than that, but I need to find the right winds so I can increase the level of difficulty in small steps.
The most crosswind I've seen so far in my RV-8 was about 15 kt, and it was no big deal at all. I hope to gradually open up the crosswind envelope to quite a bit more than that, but I need to find the right winds so I can increase the level of difficulty in small steps.
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N941WR
Legacy Member
It couldn't have been said better.
Back when I had my 1941 T-Craft I would fly on days when 172 pilots were afraid of the cross wind. Not that I'm an exceptional pilot but it is more about personal limitations and currancy than where the little wheel is.
Put the little wheel where you want it and you will develop the skills you need.
apkp777
Well Known Member
I doubt there is little difference in the airplanes controllability NS vs TW. But one thing is for sure, you need to start conservative then increase gradually. I wouldn't avoid a tailwheel just for fear of crosswinds.
I started out with a self imposed limit of 5 kts. Now, 135 hours later, I just stay away from huuricanes. I think the most i have done is 15 or 17kts with gusts to 22 or so.
Conquer the rudder, and you conquer the cross wind.
I started out with a self imposed limit of 5 kts. Now, 135 hours later, I just stay away from huuricanes. I think the most i have done is 15 or 17kts with gusts to 22 or so.
Conquer the rudder, and you conquer the cross wind.
Tail authority
Pilot abilities aside, one significant limitation in crosswind performance is the capability of the rudder to maintain directional control as the aircraft slows to taxi speed. If the rudder is at the stop and the plane is still nosing into the wind, you've reached a practical limit of crosswind capability and have the perfect setup for a beautiful ground loop.
Does anyone have a sense of what this limitation is in an RV?
As an interesting data point, the Cessna 140 still has a reserve of rudder authority in crosswind speeds of 30kts. My intuition tells me an RV would easily be in the same ballpark.
Regarding pilot ability, I agree 100% with those who advocate practicing in incrementally higher crosswind speeds to develop a comfort level with it. This requires no superhuman skill and provides a great deal of comfort when listening to the ATIS on the weary end of a long XC trip. I tend to look crosswind landing as a necessary skill for using an aircraft as transportation, and pilots are well advised to develop crosswind proficiency no matter where the wheels are. With this approach, a tailwheel isn't an operational limitation.
Matthew
Pilot abilities aside, one significant limitation in crosswind performance is the capability of the rudder to maintain directional control as the aircraft slows to taxi speed. If the rudder is at the stop and the plane is still nosing into the wind, you've reached a practical limit of crosswind capability and have the perfect setup for a beautiful ground loop.
Does anyone have a sense of what this limitation is in an RV?
As an interesting data point, the Cessna 140 still has a reserve of rudder authority in crosswind speeds of 30kts. My intuition tells me an RV would easily be in the same ballpark.
Regarding pilot ability, I agree 100% with those who advocate practicing in incrementally higher crosswind speeds to develop a comfort level with it. This requires no superhuman skill and provides a great deal of comfort when listening to the ATIS on the weary end of a long XC trip. I tend to look crosswind landing as a necessary skill for using an aircraft as transportation, and pilots are well advised to develop crosswind proficiency no matter where the wheels are. With this approach, a tailwheel isn't an operational limitation.
Matthew
n5lp
fugio ergo sum
I think there is more to it than rudder power. Rudder is important at higher speeds but as you slow down the nose-wheel airplane has brakes to aid in directional control. The tail-wheel airplane has brakes and tail-wheel steering.
As Kevin said, pilot technique is the biggest thing.
avengingangel
Well Known Member
It's a practicality thing. Don't let tail wheels scare you off. I transitioned to tail wheel in my old rv4.
I always two point because i find i have much more control over the aircraft. Just fly it on.
I always two point because i find i have much more control over the aircraft. Just fly it on.
Rudder authority
You're 100% correct. I know that to say crosswind capability depends strictly on rudder authority is to oversimplify matters. However, I think we all agree that when pilot ability is taken out of the discussion, different airframes do have different capacities to handle strong crosswinds.
It would be interesting to compare the tailwheel RVs to the tricycle RVs from this perspective. What is the limiting factor of crosswind capability in an RV? Maybe we could start by conceding that a crosswind faster than the clean stall speed would be too much, since you wouldn't be able to taxi off the runway.
M
You're 100% correct. I know that to say crosswind capability depends strictly on rudder authority is to oversimplify matters. However, I think we all agree that when pilot ability is taken out of the discussion, different airframes do have different capacities to handle strong crosswinds.
It would be interesting to compare the tailwheel RVs to the tricycle RVs from this perspective. What is the limiting factor of crosswind capability in an RV? Maybe we could start by conceding that a crosswind faster than the clean stall speed would be too much, since you wouldn't be able to taxi off the runway.
M
apkp777
Well Known Member
The most I have ever done in any airplane is 27kts (citabria). It was terrifying! I did 19kts in a 152. That too was intense. In mine 9, gusts to 22 wasn't horrible, but I was definately dancing on the pedals.
Not having much time in the A model RV's, I have to wonder how much the castering nose wheel limit crosswind capability? It has to be on par with the TW. The other thing is, the 9 has a huge rudder. Probably slightly more capable than a 6?
Has anyone had their tailwheel caster in a crosswind landing?
Not having much time in the A model RV's, I have to wonder how much the castering nose wheel limit crosswind capability? It has to be on par with the TW. The other thing is, the 9 has a huge rudder. Probably slightly more capable than a 6?
Has anyone had their tailwheel caster in a crosswind landing?
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
Larger rudder/vertical stabs...........also allow the crosswinds to have a more pronounced effect in yawing the aircraft. It's all a tradeoff.
I haven't seen the castering nosewheel, as having any effect in a crosswind. Just get the nose straight before the mains & then nosewheel touch. The mains on A models are farther aft than taildraggers. That has a tendency to balance the fore & aft sections of the aircraft, as the wind blows to the side of the fuselage. That really is the advantage of nosewheels, although the intensity varies between designs.
L.Adamson --- RV6A
Frank Smidler
Well Known Member
22 Kts direct xwind landing in RV-6
I flew in northern Indiana the day after Thanksgiving taking my brother Jeff up for his first RV flight. There was a direct 90 degree crosswind at 22 kts steady and had no problem in the RV-6. The more important consideration is taking off. If you keep the wind coming from your right your need for left rudder to keep the tail from blowing to the left is offset by the need to add right rudder to address P-force. I learned this the hard way and by reading VAF forums after the fact. I once took off with a 25 kt direct xwind from the left and definitely ran out of rudder.
I flew in northern Indiana the day after Thanksgiving taking my brother Jeff up for his first RV flight. There was a direct 90 degree crosswind at 22 kts steady and had no problem in the RV-6. The more important consideration is taking off. If you keep the wind coming from your right your need for left rudder to keep the tail from blowing to the left is offset by the need to add right rudder to address P-force. I learned this the hard way and by reading VAF forums after the fact. I once took off with a 25 kt direct xwind from the left and definitely ran out of rudder.
Frank is right about direction of the X-wind. With my 9A (and me,) 20 from the right on take off is about max. I wouldn't want 20 from the left. Landing, either one is fine. It is that first 50 feet on takeoff that requires all the skill. A Swift without steerable tailwheel required right brake on takeoff, regardless. It takes some getting used to..
Bob
Bob
rzbill
Well Known Member
I chose an A
I made my decision about building an A after being a passenger in an fairly stiff crosswind landing in an 8. While the wind was a challenge, it was not something I would consider a deal killer in a tri gear. This was 5 years ago so the actual #s escape me.
In the taildragger, we went missed the first time and nearly went in the ditch on the second landing that stuck.
Whether I could become a good enough pilot to do this with ease was irrelevant in my mind. I wanted a craft that I do not HAVE to be Sully or some other cape wearing superpilot to get out alive. I could just imagine an ugly IFR flight and being tired and having to fight a gusty crosswind on landing. No tailwheel for me.
I made my decision about building an A after being a passenger in an fairly stiff crosswind landing in an 8. While the wind was a challenge, it was not something I would consider a deal killer in a tri gear. This was 5 years ago so the actual #s escape me.
In the taildragger, we went missed the first time and nearly went in the ditch on the second landing that stuck.
Whether I could become a good enough pilot to do this with ease was irrelevant in my mind. I wanted a craft that I do not HAVE to be Sully or some other cape wearing superpilot to get out alive. I could just imagine an ugly IFR flight and being tired and having to fight a gusty crosswind on landing. No tailwheel for me.
On a long flight returning from the United Kingdom last summer, circumnavigating a large area of CB's in Belgium, becoming tired and low on fuel, the tower at my home base told me the winds were 310/21 gusting 29 knots, that's with the runway facing 213 degrees, exactly cross. I must have sounded either tired or scared (or both 
) because they decided to let a Citation which was 20 miles out land first. Spent at least 10 minutes circling on downwind and finally landed without too much trouble. Just "stay on" the rudder all way through the landing. In fact, I needed the rudder until closing down at the hangar ! That's with about 800 hours total time and 20 hours tailwheel experience.
Love the RV-9 for its great overall performance and economics
) because they decided to let a Citation which was 20 miles out land first. Spent at least 10 minutes circling on downwind and finally landed without too much trouble. Just "stay on" the rudder all way through the landing. In fact, I needed the rudder until closing down at the hangar ! That's with about 800 hours total time and 20 hours tailwheel experience. Love the RV-9 for its great overall performance and economics
Where to even begin here..
The pilot makes the landing, not the plane.
Sully was just doing his job. He did it right but he is not a superhero.
Confidence in ones' abilities is supreme but recognize your personal limits.
You made your decision and good for you, but don't think the nose wheel will save your bacon.
The real issue is not NW/TW
I have a nose wheel and also fly a tailwheel citabria. I put the RV down sooooo gently in grass (nose wheel off the ground, land on the mains). Read the threads on nose wheel flips. I would not want to be headed home to a grass field in a nose wheel knowing that there was a strong cross wind to deal with in addition to thinking about a bounce or gopher holes. Part of what makes the nose wheel easier in stiff crosswinds is the ability to land fast and brake stiff to keep the nose pointed down the runway. I am not excited about doing that on grass, not with my nosewheel RV at least.
That said, If you know your runway you may be just fine. I have had trouble once or twice, keeping the Citabria (tail wheel) headed straight down the runway before I got the tail down and things in control. I had to keep powering up to stay out of the lights in a gust. I was not sure I had enough runway to keep that game up too long. Things can get sporty! Just saying...
I have a nose wheel and also fly a tailwheel citabria. I put the RV down sooooo gently in grass (nose wheel off the ground, land on the mains). Read the threads on nose wheel flips. I would not want to be headed home to a grass field in a nose wheel knowing that there was a strong cross wind to deal with in addition to thinking about a bounce or gopher holes. Part of what makes the nose wheel easier in stiff crosswinds is the ability to land fast and brake stiff to keep the nose pointed down the runway. I am not excited about doing that on grass, not with my nosewheel RV at least.
That said, If you know your runway you may be just fine. I have had trouble once or twice, keeping the Citabria (tail wheel) headed straight down the runway before I got the tail down and things in control. I had to keep powering up to stay out of the lights in a gust. I was not sure I had enough runway to keep that game up too long. Things can get sporty! Just saying...
