Formation Flight Speeds in an RV?

Greetings Folks: Can anyone tell me the normal ground speed that the RV Formation guys would fly their routines at. I've seen 2500rpm with constant speed prop mentioned in the Team RV literature, what would that be in a ground speed number? Are flight's that are done in tribute,ie:memorial day , done at a slower speed than say during an Oshkosh fly over? Any information would be appreciated and contribute greatly to the great hangar discussions we are having (and may be quite useful when I get the "8" finished). Still pounding rivets: Mark.

I can give you a little info here.

Ground Speed - Not used due to effects of winds etc. We always use indicated airspeed

Normal indicated speed is ~125kts during all standard horizontal maneuvers. This changes during maneuvers with more vertical and aerobatics of course.

As a wingman, I generally set my C/S prop at 2650rpm and adjust MP anywhere from idle to wide open. 95% of the time I'm running in a much smaller MP range of about 18-24in to make small adjustments during large formations.

Leads objective is to pick a power setting that allows all wingmen to have power in reserve for maneuvering and corrections. This is generally around 18in MP and ~2400RPM, but changes with conditions and flight leads.

Most formations are flown about the same speed and power settings regardless of size. The large 37-ship Oshkosh formation was a little different though since the guys out on the tips of the formation needed to make large speed changes depending on the direction of turn. This resulted in lead pulling back the power slightly to make sure all 37ships had enough power to keep up in the turns. This speed reduction is done with a "lead gimme one" call from the wingman having trouble keeping up. This tells lead to reduce power by ~1in of MP. Honestly, I can't remember what the actual speed was during the formation since I was looking out the window the whole time.

Greg "Neon" Vouga
- India 2 in 37 ship Oshkosh '09 formation
- Team RV wingman

Everything Neon said.
If you have a fancy display, ~135KTAS is a good number it hit straight and level.
In the extreme of aerobatic maneuvering in formation , we will see upwards of 180KTAS in a Diamond loop entry, ~40kts on a line abreast hammer kick. And of course everything else inbetween.

For non-aerobatic maneuvering, ~160KTAS on the downlines and ~100KTAS at the top of lazy eights.

The KTAS numbers are extremely useful as they bring more consistency to teh speeds for the wingman particularly as you move into formation aerobatics. But even in non-aerobatic maneuvering, a KTAS number takes into consideration those environmental factors we need to deliver coonsistency to the wingman.

New Eight Guy said:

Greetings Folks: Can anyone tell me the normal ground speed that the RV Formation guys would fly their routines at. I've seen 2500rpm with constant speed prop mentioned in the Team RV literature, what would that be in a ground speed number? Are flight's that are done in tribute,ie:memorial day , done at a slower speed than say during an Oshkosh fly over? Any information would be appreciated and contribute greatly to the great hangar discussions we are having (and may be quite useful when I get the "8" finished). Still pounding rivets: Mark.

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Oh and forgot to mention. Ground speeds have no place in this discussion.

Special fly-overs should be done at normal speeds unless geo references prevent good visuals for the crowds viewing pleaseure. Example. Trees or other obstacles prevent folks from seeing your entry/exit well. In which case you can slow things down a bit. Our flight envelopes are not large reletively speaking so there is not much give in speed to ensure wingman stability.

Greg & Kahuna thanks for your reply. Using indicated speed makes a lot more sense. It was the 125kt value I was looking for. this discussion started after watching a couple friends (RV4 & RV6) make a formation pass at a venue we attended. They went by at full throttle, and while it sounded fantastic, it was very hard for people to follow, especially some older veterans in the crowd. When this was mentioned, the reply was thats the speed you should use in such flights......hence the great discussion. Mark.

I've been told we're using 125kt/140mph for straight and level, but i'm too busy looking at lead to know for sure.

Diamond entry to a loop? Oh, i'm looking forward to the day I can do that...

When flying with 150hp fixed pitch aircraft, SoCAL briefs/flies 120 knots indicated so they can keep up when on the outside turn Rosie

New Eight Guy said:

Greg & Kahuna thanks for your reply. Using indicated speed makes a lot more sense. It was the 125kt value I was looking for. this discussion started after watching a couple friends (RV4 & RV6) make a formation pass at a venue we attended. They went by at full throttle, and while it sounded fantastic, it was very hard for people to follow, especially some older veterans in the crowd. When this was mentioned, the reply was thats the speed you should use in such flights......hence the great discussion. Mark.

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I wouldn't take that 125 knot value to the bank. I think you will find that if lead sets his power to 17 or 18 inches that you will be near 125 knots in normal maneuvering flight. The trick is to leave some power for your wingmen to keep up on the outside of turns. If you try to hold 125 knots in a climb you will eventually be at full throttle and your wingmen will start falling behind. I use 22 inches on takeoff and 18 inches for maneuvering flight. If accelerating to enter a loop (need 160+) I will go up to 25 inches but watch the wingment closely and pull it back at the first sign that they are lagging. Find it interesting that we really have to pull power back at the top of the loop. The slot man is the first to scream for power and he is usually falling back before he has a second to call "gimme one".
Allowing for the one guy in the formation with a fixed pitch prop is a whole nother discussion!

there's more to the story

While Kahuna advises on a target IAS, I would suggest that you (if C/S prop equipped) set up your engine with the lowest RPM that allows you to hold position. If you have 2600 turns set up as your RPM, your ship will react VERY quickly to any MP changes. If you pull off power a bit too aggressively/accidently, the fellas behind you are gonna be working very hard to NOT HIT YOU. Your formation pals will not seem so nice in the de-brief if you make 'em work hard to not hit you.

Bennair, Dunnatt, used the expletives. I use 2100 when the group is experienced; 2200-2300 when there are FNGs in front of me. A tip from an old fighter pilot: strobe your prop against leads: sync up with him and you should be fine thru all maneuvers.

In any case, if you see MP excursions of more than 2" +/-, you are jockeying the throttle too much. Settle down a bit, and anticipate what lead will do next. Watching the horizon (thru lead) will tip you off as to power change directions and amounts before they are needed.

Carry on!
Mark

F1Boss said:

While Kahuna advises on a target IAS, I would suggest that you (if C/S prop equipped) set up your engine with the lowest RPM that allows you to hold position. If you have 2600 turns set up as your RPM, your ship will react VERY quickly to any MP changes. If you pull off power a bit too aggressively/accidently, the fellas behind you are gonna be working very hard to NOT HIT YOU. Your formation pals will not seem so nice in the de-brief if you make 'em work hard to not hit you.

Bennair, Dunnatt, used the expletives. I use 2100 when the group is experienced; 2200-2300 when there are FNGs in front of me. A tip from an old fighter pilot: strobe your prop against leads: sync up with him and you should be fine thru all maneuvers.

In any case, if you see MP excursions of more than 2" +/-, you are jockeying the throttle too much. Settle down a bit, and anticipate what lead will do next. Watching the horizon (thru lead) will tip you off as to power change directions and amounts before they are needed.

Carry on!
Mark

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Mark,

Can't agree with you unless you are talking about cross-country formation flying. If doing any kind of maneuvering one should have at least 2400 RPM on the prop and if doing aerobatics one will need it all in at 2700. If pulling the power off is enough to worry the guy behind, perhaps the throttle technique is too abrupt.

PS

Mark,

All bets are off if you have more than enough horsepower at low RPM. If you are comparing your Rocket to RV's then we are talking apples and oranges.
(Were you the last guy in our 37-ship formation for some reason?)

PS: Whatcha flyin' these days?

I think I know what Mark is referencing ...

ronschreck said:

Mark,

All bets are off if you have more than enough horsepower at low RPM. If you are comparing your Rocket to RV's then we are talking apples and oranges.
(Were you the last guy in our 37-ship formation for some reason?)

PS: Whatcha flyin' these days?

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Yes, he was.

I was "India 4" and he was "India 5" in the 37-ship. He has TWICE+ the horsepower as me so we had some interesting chats about power settings.

With a lot going on in front of us -) ), we had to be (as Falcon would say) "Johnny-on-the-spot" with the throttle and with anticipation. He mentioned that there was no way could he run at the 2600 RPM I was using. First he would be down around 2" MP (kidding) to go as slow as we were and his surging and braking would be significant with each throttle change.

And I remember the time he really wanted MORE braking.

ronschreck said:

Mark,

Can't agree with you unless you are talking about cross-country formation flying. If doing any kind of maneuvering one should have at least 2400 RPM on the prop and if doing aerobatics one will need it all in at 2700. If pulling the power off is enough to worry the guy behind, perhaps the throttle technique is too abrupt.

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Hey Ron:

I wrote:
A tip from an old fighter pilot: strobe your prop against leads: sync up with him and you should be fine thru all maneuvers.

The above is something I remember being told by a fella who was taught by our government to fly P51s. Kinda sounds like we agree.

Carry on!
Mark

ronschreck said:

Mark,

All bets are off if you have more than enough horsepower at low RPM. If you are comparing your Rocket to RV's then we are talking apples and oranges.
(Were you the last guy in our 37-ship formation for some reason?)

PS: Whatcha flyin' these days?

Click to expand...

Hey Ron:

I'm a CP on the Devil Dog B25, and still flying the Rocket. The Beech was bashed at an airshow by the prop blast from an AN2, so it's in the process if getting repaired. I'm looking forward to getting beck into the family Champ (my brother is not flying it, so it's coming back here) -- I used to fly that one when I was very young.

Nah, I'm not comparing anything other than RPM, as concerns aero braking. More turns = more braking ability, but in reality, it should not be necessary to use that much braking,, and it is quite possibly dangerous, but at minimum it is bad form. My point it that it's easy to inadvertently push your tailwheel into the windshield of the plane behind you when you have a bit too much RPM dialed in. Match leads' setting and things will go smoother and easier.

Yes, James an I had a discussion on that specific point, as his plane was not smooth at anything less than 2600, so I asked him to be extra careful with pulling the 'GO!' Knob backwards. For the most part, it worked out. Being #37 in a 37 ship formation is not the easy spot, that's for sure.

Then again, if this formation stuff was easy, everyone would be doing it!

Carry on!
Mark

F1Boss said:

Hey Ron:

I wrote:
A tip from an old fighter pilot: strobe your prop against leads: sync up with him and you should be fine thru all maneuvers.

The above is something I remember being told by a fella who was taught by our government to fly P51s. Kinda sounds like we agree.

Carry on!
Mark

Click to expand...

Mark,

OK, if the government says so I guess that must be the best way to do it!

That's a great way to match lead's RPM but you may not want to match his RPM in all situations. For example, I could lead you through a barrel roll doing 2000 RPM. If you match my RPM you will never stay with me. (Leave your Rocket out of this. We're talking about two similar airplanes here!)