GRT moving map on EIS only-

WITHOUT THE EFIS-

coupled with an external GPS- does it show the flight planning segments, airports, VOR, etc, etc, etc-

can you still adjust nav/com through GRT without the EFIS added?

Will it still control Autopilot without EFIS?

I like the functionality, but still like some gauges...

It seems the biggest advantages are:
-eliminating vacuum gauges (a comparable 2k+ electric expense)
-integrating COM/NAV with GPS (autopilot can work directly with GPS)
-flight planning
-engine gauges
-upgradeable to EFIS w/ 2nd monitor or in 1 unit.

I'm having a hard time wading through the avionics/instruments must have versus wants but can afford. Trying to hit an IFR panel with GPS for under 15k seems tough with no vauum gauges.

jcmcdowell
ATL, GA
9a planning, planning, planning

I hope I'm not confused about your question, but it looks like you're asking if the EIS head all by itself displays a moving map.

The EIS, by itself with no EFIS in the system, is an engine monitor only and has nothing to do with navigation. By purchasing an option, it will display airspeed, altitude, and vertical speed, but the EIS head displays text only.

I went through the same quandry but in the end, I couldn't end up with a panel that I could live with under about $22K. I did that by figuring a GRT Efis Sport for ADI, then the GRT Moving Map/Engine monitor, then the stack consisting of a GMA 347 Audio Panel, GNS430, SL-40, and GTX327.

That stuff, and some of the other usual requirements for backup, ended up just South of $22K.
However, some additional functionality (mostly convenience) is added if you go with the full dual EFIS but that adds another $3000 for the difference in cost. Since you get full credit for an upgrade later, that's always an option, and all you have to do is to send back the Sport, install the AHRS and plug in the new EFIS display.

Hope that helps.

EIS and EFIS confusion

Here is the EIS:



Here is the EFIS:



Cheapest IFR panel I've come up with is:

SL-40 $1284
VAL INS 422 $1999
GRT Sport $2795
Total: $6078

This does not include some small extras, like wiring.

To clarify no IFR GPS here

rv8ch said:

Cheapest IFR panel I've come up with is:

SL-40 $1284
VAL INS 422 $1999
GRT Sport $2795
Total: $6078

This does not include some small extras, like wiring.

Click to expand...

That is what I am talking about? However I think "jcmcdowell" implied he want an IFR GPS. In your set up, which I love and advocate, big fan of the VAL INS, there is no approved IFR GPS. However the VFR (internal GRT) GPS will give awesome back-up/situational awareness. Just to clarify this is a traditional (from a navigation standpoint) IFR panel, no GPS en-route, terminal or approaches, which I think is the best way to go, especially from an economy stand point.

With traditional ground base nav (VAL INS), you just need simple paper up dates of enroute charts and approach plates (on an as need basis) and you are good to go. A Cat I - ILS approach takes you down to (DH) 200 feet / (RVR) 2,400 feet (1/2 sm), (with TZ and CL, RVR 1,800ft!). That's low Vis my friend. GPS does not get you that low.

With a TSO'ed IFR panel mounted GPS, besides the initial purchase sticker shock, you're saddled with expensive electronic updates for the duration. The companies need to come down on purchase cost and data base updates. I guess Jeppesen (and Boeing who owns it) has a monopoly on the data base, so that cost will likely remain the same, never getting "cheaper". Unless you fly IFR everyday I don't see the cost benifit advantage of IFR GPS, unless that's the only approach at your airport'(s). There's nothing wrong with using a VFR GPS for refrence only in IFR, as long as you have the VOR/LOC "TIT" (Tuned, Identified and Tracked).

George

Ifr Gps

gmcjetpilot said:

... However I think "jcmcdowell" implied he want an IFR GPS. In your set up, which I love and advocate, big fan of the VAL INS, there is no approved IFR GPS. ...

Click to expand...

Oops. You're right. I didn't read his post carefully enough, I just dove into what I thought was a spiffy answer!

BTW, you're the guy that turned me onto the VAL INS - thanks!

Best of both worlds?

Yes and Yes.

I was looking for a good answer for a traditional VOR IFR panel with GPS as a navigation aid. I like your suggestion.

Will the GRT couple with VAL INS? Does it add any benefit??

What do you think about:

GRT Horizon I w/ EIS $6k (add 2nd display for $2500 later- build in dual screen harness)
GPS internal $450 (mainly for flight planning purposes)
XCOM 760VHF $1200 (will GRT couple to XCom?? If not- Garmin SL40)
VAL INS 422 $2k (I like it!)
Tru Track Pictoral AP $2k (also Turn & Bank, Skid indicator)
Ameri-King ELT $190
Garmin 327 Transponder $1800 (mode c)
Trad Airspeed Ind
Trad Altimeter
Trad Vert Speed Ind
Panel Mount Whiskey Compass
Double battery

The total hits around 15k and change This is the upper reaches of my comfrotable budget.

Budget Options:
kill AP for now
If GRT Sport had Internal GPS- It would also be different; if could hook up to handheld GPS- but still not a lot of info on the big screen without Horizon. I really want to get as good info as on the Garmin 430 we have in our Warrior.

Am I missing anything critical- Audio Panel, Intercom, more trad instruments??

Good info-

jcmcdowell
flying to Vans Factory 2/21/06; hoping for good weather
9a planning-

jcmcdowell said:

Yes and Yes.

I was looking for a good answer for a traditional VOR IFR panel with GPS as a navigation aid. I like your suggestion.

Will the GRT couple with VAL INS? Does it add any benefit??

What do you think about:

GRT Horizon I w/ EIS $6k (add 2nd display for $2500 later- build in dual screen harness)
GPS internal $450 (mainly for flight planning purposes)
XCOM 760VHF $1200 (will GRT couple to XCom?? If not- Garmin SL40)
VAL INS 422 $2k (I like it!)
Tru Track Pictoral AP $2k (also Turn & Bank, Skid indicator)
Ameri-King ELT $190
Garmin 327 Transponder $1800 (mode c)
Trad Airspeed Ind
Trad Altimeter
Trad Vert Speed Ind
Panel Mount Whiskey Compass
Double battery

The total hits around 15k and change This is the upper reaches of my comfrotable budget.

Budget Options:
kill AP for now
If GRT Sport had Internal GPS- It would also be different; if could hook up to handheld GPS- but still not a lot of info on the big screen without Horizon. I really want to get as good info as on the Garmin 430 we have in our Warrior.

Am I missing anything critical- Audio Panel, Intercom, more trad instruments??

Good info-

jcmcdowell
flying to Vans Factory 2/21/06; hoping for good weather
9a planning-

Click to expand...

JC:

Looking at your list, It appears you are going for minimal cost - an admirable goal. I have several other options that you may consider:

Option 1: ICOM A200 for $729 vs. XCOM 760 at $1,200

Option 2: Garmin SL-30 versus VAL INS 422 and the XCOM 760 (Stark Avi. $3115 with harness). This gives much more capability for less than what you have listed. The EFIS is your external OBS.

Your EFIS and EIS will cost you roughly $7,500 (list) if you want fuel flow, MAP and fuel pressure (Affordable Panels seems to have the best price with up to 5% below list)

Why the vertical speed?

If you kill Atto now, you'll need a TC or a T&B for partial panel. Consider a TruTrak Pitorial T&B now for $425 and then you can have Trutrak upgrade it to a Pictoriial Pilot later for the price delta. I would however, recommend the DigiFlight II series. GRT works very well with those and you will give gain substantial capabilities. The price is more but, I think you can take these recommendations for not much more, all-in-all. Again, Affordable Panels has great prices.

Consider a vertical card compass in place of the standard W compass. It's nice to be able to see the compass rose at all times. This way, you can have your EFIS on ADI view and still see a rose to help with situational awareness. With an EFIS, you have a linear compass on the ADI. I seem to need the rose during busy times for a quick update of situation instead of doing the math such as when in unfamiliar patterns (let's see, runway heading is 253,... what was that flash under my wing, wait, what's the base of the class B I'm under(1500 feet and I'm climbing at 2000 fpm) ...base is 253 + 90 = 133?

An audio panel may not seem to be needed with 1 com and 1 nav however, you will have several other sets of annunciators in your setup (EFIS/EIS, Pictorial T&B, maybe AoA someday, other growth). Add music and such and you are now getting to where you can benefit from a good panel. Look at the PMA-8000B from PSE, is give you great intelli-vox, fade in and out for stereo music. Has a front port for external input of an IPOD or such, can plug your cell phone into the front, marker beackon and ATC recorder. All this for $1685 (with harness) from Stark Avionics.

Some thoughts you may want to consider. I hope this isn't stirring the ashes.

Jekyll

JC:

Forgot to mention the GTX-327 is $1550 from Stark Avionics. This includes $70 for the harness. Garmin requires the dealers to "install" their systems for the warranty. Buying the harness from Stark satisfies the install requirement.

Jekyll

Another formula

My cheapest attempts at "IFR Legal, 129 A1 GPS, Flight Instrument redundant, 2 com monitor, 2 axis autopilot" list is below.

~$16K

Steam Gages for redundancy:
ASI
Altimeter
VSI

Electronic Instruments:
Dynon D10A ( Primary flight inst)
2 axis Trutrac ADI (T&B redundancy)
EIS - 4000

Avionics:
VAL 220
GX60
GTX327 (**typo correction**)

Backup:
ICOM A24 wired in.


Lots of ways to make the soup. This was just my cheapest way.
Other economy options might include using the GRT Engine Monitor/Moving Map display and a cheapo GPS, if the big map feature is desired

BTW, This is not necessarily what I will do. It was just my low cost option that followed the criteria at the top of the e-mail

Solid IFR Panel

jcmcdowell said:

If GRT Sport had Internal GPS- It would also be different; if could hook up to handheld GPS- but still not a lot of info on the big screen without Horizon. I really want to get as good info as on the Garmin 430 we have in our Warrior.

Click to expand...

Jerry, reading the brochure on the GRT website, it's not clear to me what GPS functions are included with the Sport. It does not have an HSI, which is probably going to push me to the Horizon. Not sure yet.

GRT SPORT GPS external limits...

http://www.grtavionics.com/EFIS Flyer.pdf

here is a comparson-

no flight planning internal
no VOR/LOC...
no airspace indicators on map
no map obstructions
no obs select
no moving map
no nav radio interface (coupled to sl30 or sl40)
no split screens
no airport and waypoint details.


The good news is you can upgrade for the cost difference to a horizon.

Otto (AP) and Audio...

I think Jekyl is right about the SL30 being a better value than the VAL INS and XCOM- EXCEPT now you need a intercom.

The GRT will use the VOR/LOC data on the EFIS display to give you a HSI- and it can be controlled by the GRT and tuned- including GND/TWR freqs for airports.

I may have to 'plan' for the PSE audio panel for the future unless things are going better $$ than I expect- certainly between Stark Avionics and Afordable Panels I might shave enough to upgrade an instrument or add something else.

I might get an el cheapo transponder (reconditioned, used) until I can afford the Garmin 330 b/c of the 'free' traffic awareness with the GRT. The GRT will provide alt encoding.

I've 'heard' how useful an AP is in the RV's and I spend MOST of my time XC I am loathe to hold on the AP. I need to see if people are using the Pictoral Pilot AP with the GRT ok.

So: trad IFR panel

GRT w/ EIS & GPS all sensors (and dual display harness) $7500 ish
SL30 coupled $3200 (no ARINC needed with the SL30 for GRT)
Tru Track Pictoral PIlot AP $2000
El Cheapo Transponder $800 (??) Mode C
a basic intercom
some steam gauges
some wire
In the $15k range

UPGRADES:
ADD 2nd GRT DISPLAY ($2500)
GARMIN 330 Trans ($3500)
Still at 20k range
PMA-8000B ($1700)
DIGIFLIGHT II ($3800) or
DIGIFLIGHT II VS ($4250)
Now in the $24k+

You're right about the SL-30 being a better (best) fit with the GRT, especially if you want the NAV information to be displayed on your EFIS. All the TruTrak AP's work well with the GRT from the single axis up to the dual axis.

Keep in mind with the TIS traffic that we haven't seen what the feds long term plans for that system are vs. ADSB, etc.. Also, the TIS traffic is only good within a 25mi radius of a TIS enabled large airport.

Whatever you try to save - at least get the autopilot. I flew my RV6 for hundreds of hours without one, but after I put it in I wished I'd have done it a couple years before! It's my single favorite instrument in my plane.

There are a lot of ways to skin this cat as far as IFR panels go. Depending on what you're comfortable with you can do it for that $10-20K range and have a decent set of functionality. Below 10 is getting pretty difficult but still doable.

The GRT's become phenomenally popular as have the TruTrak's. That being said, my "old" antique RV6 is IFR equipped with steam gauges, digital Txpdr, nav/com, 196 garmin, ils/vor, simple intercom and simple engine monitor. I think I have around $12K in my old panel, but that's been a number of years. Were I to do it again today I'd certainly do some EFIS route (GRT or similar) but my radio stack would still be pretty simple.

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein.

New Builder...

It's a done deal.

Spend most of the day at Vans with Ken and Darryl asking lots of questions and took my 30k ride. Very Impressive. Ken flew the 9 and less than 50% power from takeoff and it still had a greater climb rate than our Warrior II with the same engine.

I have the 9a emp enroute, standard wings w/ prebuilt tanks (due to shipping schedule), and QB fuse on order.

Now to start working on the shop...

PANEL- I'm leaning towards a recon transponder to budget for an audio panel. Good advice on the TIS. The 330 is a hefty nickel. The guys at Vans suggested I 'wait and see' until Osh Kosh as they think some hot stuff will be coming out by then...

jcmcdowell
ATL GA
9a emp enroute