xperimental vs. certificated Engines

What are the advantages / disadvantages of running xperimental vs. certificated engines? Other than intial cost are there any advantages?

If you certify your airplane with a certificated engine/prop combination, you will likely get a 25 hour phase I test flight minimum. If the engine, propeller, or engine/propeller combination is non-certified your phase I will be a minimum of 40 hours. Remember that any modification to the engine or prop, such as after market ignition or fuel injection systems will void the certification.
Mel...DAR

The biggest advantage that I see beyond the price is that the experimental engine can make improvements over the older design Lycoming. Case in point is the TMX series engine. This engine has installed nozzles in the case that gives a constant oil spray onto the camshaft and tappets, and a modification improvement in the crankcase that prevents case leaks.

yiker said:

The biggest advantage that I see beyond the price is that the experimental engine can make improvements over the older design Lycoming. Case in point is the TMX series engine. This engine has installed nozzles in the case that gives a constant oil spray onto the camshaft and tappets, and a modification improvement in the crankcase that prevents case leaks.

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I agree and disagree. First most of the Non-cert (ECI / Superior) are made of PMA parts and actually can (must) bolt right up to a certified Lyc, so the differences are small. Yes they offer a choice or variety of materials, such as cylinder bore material. Yes I agree that there are some small improvement's but still its a Lycoming design, clone or not.

I have a "genuine" O360A1A engine only because I got a real steal of a deal on it. I would NOT have a problem buying a Clone today, and in fact would do it for one reason and one reason only, PRICE. I would build an engine mixed and matched with some ECI and Superior parts.

The bottom line for an experimental aircraft, there really is no advantage to using a certified engine, except for what "Mel" said. However the 25 hour phase-I goes away if you don't have certified installation combo, with an approved matching prop, ignition and induction. Any experimental items on the engine or modification than it's an experimental installation, regardless of the engine you use.

Insurance- Check. I know it is getting more costly and expensive and in some cases almost impossible to get for some. I know insurance companies have a dim view "experimental engines" like alternative (auto) engines, (deserved or not its not my opinion, only what I have read). I know someone will chime in and say they got cheap insurance with their Subaru and Mazda powered RV, I hope so. I have not tried so it is only a rumor from me. HOWEVER, when I was getting a quote they made it clear to me that they wanted to know if my O360A1A was a certified engine or experimental (clone). I did not price it with and with out a certified engine, but it was clear they wanted to know.

I heard that the Lyc clones where getting lumped into the experimental auto engine camp and insurance was declined. This IS moot point if you find an insurance company that will cover you for a fair price, regardless of the engine, but its a rumor floating around and worth a look into. Now lets say there's a difference, is a "real Lycoming" worth the premium? Probably not. George

TMX Components

George,

This may stray slightly off topic, but you mentioned that you would "mix-n-match" the parts on your next lyc-clone.
I'm about 2 months from ordering an engine. I'm set on the Mattituck TMX because of price and the ability to build from different mfgr's parts among other reasons. (360, C/S, carb)
I'm not an engine guy...but I'm learning.
The only advice/suggestion I've ever had was to configure with ECI cylinders because of their wearability. Are there other mix & match components that I should consider? Thanks for any direction on this.

Sam

The clone engines generally have great support if purchased from the major companies, Mattituck, Aerosport, Superior, Barrett, etc.

It's all good

7A_@ABI said:

George,

This may stray slightly off topic, but you mentioned that you would "mix-n-match" the parts on your next lyc-clone. I'm about 2 months from ordering an engine. I'm set on the Mattituck TMX because of price and the ability to build from different mfgr's parts among other reasons. (360, C/S, carb)
I'm not an engine guy...but I'm learning. The only advice/suggestion I've ever had was to configure with ECI cylinders because of their wear-ability. Are there other mix & match components that I should consider? Thanks for any direction on this. Sam

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Good choice Sam, Mattituck will set you up just fine. They know more than I do so ask them. The cylinder thing is if you are going to fly little (like we do) the ECI jugs resist corrosion better. If you are flying a working plane, flying say 50-100 hours a month (rental plane or freight dog) than Superior may be better.

Besides the cylinders, my opinion is there's very little difference. Support is another thing. People may chime in, but sure both are trying to give good support. Since you are wisely going with Mattituck (one of many good engine builders as mentioned above) than they warranty the engine.

I heard Superior parts may look a little prettier sometimes than ECI parts, but cost a little more. I recall there's some competition in the induction/oil pan rhetoric with claims of one upmanship, "better flow" and composite versions, but doubt any significant "real" benifit. ECI has ceramic coating on the pistons skirts? It goes on and on. What is of benefit and what is just a gimmick don't know. Bottom line is if it is PMA'ed it needs to be compatible to a Lycoming part! So how differnt can it be?

I would go all ECI only because I have experience with them overhauling components for my O360A1A Lyc. They are also super nice to talk to at the airshows, on the phone and are slightly less expensive. I did not get as much a warm fuzzy from Superior, but sure they are fine. Superior has the engine school but you are paying a premium for that. George

Trust Mahlon....

Since you're going with the TMX, I'll tell you that I started out talking parts selection with Mahlon - did I want ECI this? Superor that?...and I quickly realized that he had already spec'ed out an engine that was going to be as reliable as he could make it! "Paul, the last thing I want is to see this engine come back before TBO!" was the way he put it. Mine is all ECI - and I couldn't be happier.

Regarding Geaorge's comments on the engine school...yup, Superior has one that you can pay for - if you can get scheduled for it. Mattituck said "You want to be part of your engine build? Come on up!!" When I asked how much they charged, the said "Why would we charge you for that?!"

Good company...

Paul

Just a couple of comments, since I bought an ECI engine kit and assembled it...
The pistons did not have a ceramic coating on either the skirts or the face of the pistons. - A company called Cradin Industries, in Boerne, TX, will do this coating for you if you want. They have a lot of experience in doing this on racing engines. I had my exhaust and intake pipes ceramic coated and they look GREAT! Just like chrome (or black) and a lot cheaper, too! Don't know about performance yet, but another person on my field had their exhaust coated and it did cut down on temperatures. (He had a problem of burnt spots on the cowl, before getting it coated.) Make sure you don't coat the area where the heat muff is, but do get the muff coated. I actually had a couple of other parts ceramic coated since it looks like chrome.

I didn't notice any difference in insurance costs due to telling them it was an ECI clone. Most likely, they are interested in the replacement value in the event of a crash that doesn't total the aircraft. They wouldn't want to pay for a new Lycoming if you only had a clone.

I would do the ECI engine again. Parts are as good as Lycoming and their customer service is a LOT better! I would like to see them provide some manuals or assembly instructions, but they just refer you to the Lycoming manuals...it is a clone, after all.

Mahlon also puts on a seminar on building an engine a few times a year. Well worth the time (one day). And it's free.