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3 Ship Acro

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RV8iator

RV8iator

Well Known Member
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Well, since I got a new camera for Christmas I couldn't go flying without using it a little. As usual, all my friends on this forum have to sit through another home movie if they so desire.

It's a 9 minute video of some 3 ship acro over Lake Altoona, NW of Atlanta. The waters brown, the skies cloudy, but the fun we had.

I got a GoPro HD camera. This was shot is SD to use the wide angle lens instead of the 127 degree HD part.

All in all, I like the camera. No audio input so no air to air comm. Now comes the fun part. Learning how to edit.

Oh, and we had a blast doing formation acro..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKn1FuB53KU

Happy New Year to All.
 
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I was in the house listening to you guys chat it up while doing your practice. I wanted to get out to the airport but by the time I did I pulled the airplane out and it started sleeting.

Great video.
 
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Three of my favorite RVers

Widget, Kahuna and SuBob

Doing three of my favorite things. 1) Flying 2) Formation 3) Acro ...Put them all together and it looks like too much fun.

It just sucks that Georgia is so darned far away....even by RV.

Nice flying.

Tim
 
Nice job "Widget", I wonder if I had an ulterior motive when I bought my son a Contour HD helmet cam for Christmas to use for snowboarding. Now if we could get "Greese" to lead us thru some aerobatics like that it would be great!:D
Happy New Year!

"Mutha"
 
Nice! Glad you guys do it right too.. plenty of altitude and no buzzing the population. Thanks!

oh...isn't ACROBATICS what clowns do, and AEROBATICS what pilots do? Just a thought :)

Ken
 
Questions for Widget

I'm sorry that my first real post has to be critical. I just watched this video because I love aerobatics and I'm passionate about formation. Maybe I was a USAF Flight Examiner too long, but three things gave me a "I can't believe I'm watching this" sort of feeling.

1) ALTITUDE. Widget, was that lake Sidney Lanier you guys were flying over? If so, I believe the surface of the lake is 1070' MSL. I lost count of the number of times when your altimeter read 1500' to 1700'. Now, maybe someone changed Part 91 when I wasn't looking, but the min altitude for aerobatics is 1500' AGL. All three of you repeatedly led your flight below the FAR minimum altitude, which makes me think that there was no discussion of a "floor" in your preflight briefing. {Please tell me if you were really over a different lake--with a 0' MSL surface--and I'll gladly withdraw the criticism.}

2) VISUAL LOOKOUT/CLEARING. Maybe you edited out all your good clearing time to keep your viewers from getting dizzy. But the video gives the impression that you almost never checked anything but 12 when you were leading (and even during your free time as #3 in the Cuban 8).

3) LANDING. I could be mistaken here, but the sudden jerk in the video seemed to indicate that you intentionally landed well short of a displaced threshold. As I'm sure you know, you can takeoff from behind a displaced threshold but you can't land short of one. {In your defense, perhaps there was a NOTAM opening the entire surface for landing--I'll take this back if so.}

I'm not trying to embarrass anyone with these observations. But I'm concerned about two things: that younger pilots will take this as a demonstration of the proper way to fly, and that your needlessly low aerobatics will eventually spoil it for the rest of us.

Again, no offense. I'm sure that you and Kahuna and Subob strive for absoute perfection every time you strap into an airplane (otherwise, there's no point in flying). But the lack of discipline evidenced in the video cheapens your efforts and has "amateur pilots" written all over it. In many ways you guys had a great ride; it's a shame to get a Q3 because of things that are so easily avoided.

Respectfully,

Andy
 
"Andy"

Ballsy posting! You have expressed your opinion very well. (However, I couldn't help but notice that you have left yourself an "out" at every point.)

But who are you? On your Public Profile, you have no "Bio", no "Location", no "Occupation", and not even a "Name!" I might suggest that your words might be more carefully attended to if you had bothered, in the last couple of years of lurking, to identify yourself to some degree.

You unfortunately remind me of too many "examiners" in my past..... Great on the "regs", but couldn't fly a plane without reading the book and flying by the numbers.

I'm sure you will hear stronger words from others.

And what's a Q3, anyway?



Andy said:
I'm sorry that my first real post has to be critical. I just watched this video because I love aerobatics and I'm passionate about formation. Maybe I was a USAF Flight Examiner too long, but three things gave me a "I can't believe I'm watching this" sort of feeling.

1) ALTITUDE. Widget, was that lake Sidney Lanier you guys were flying over? If so, I believe the surface of the lake is 1070' MSL. I lost count of the number of times when your altimeter read 1500' to 1700'. Now, maybe someone changed Part 91 when I wasn't looking, but the min altitude for aerobatics is 1500' AGL. All three of you repeatedly led your flight below the FAR minimum altitude, which makes me think that there was no discussion of a "floor" in your preflight briefing. {Please tell me if you were really over a different lake--with a 0' MSL surface--and I'll gladly withdraw the criticism.}

2) VISUAL LOOKOUT/CLEARING. Maybe you edited out all your good clearing time to keep your viewers from getting dizzy. But the video gives the impression that you almost never checked anything but 12 when you were leading (and even during your free time as #3 in the Cuban 8).

3) LANDING. I could be mistaken here, but the sudden jerk in the video seemed to indicate that you intentionally landed well short of a displaced threshold. As I'm sure you know, you can takeoff from behind a displaced threshold but you can't land short of one. {In your defense, perhaps there was a NOTAM opening the entire surface for landing--I'll take this back if so.}

I'm not trying to embarrass anyone with these observations. But I'm concerned about two things: that younger pilots will take this as a demonstration of the proper way to fly, and that your needlessly low aerobatics will eventually spoil it for the rest of us.

Again, no offense. I'm sure that you and Kahuna and Subob strive for absoute perfection every time you strap into an airplane (otherwise, there's no point in flying). But the lack of discipline evidenced in the video cheapens your efforts and has "amateur pilots" written all over it. In many ways you guys had a great ride; it's a shame to get a Q3 because of things that are so easily avoided.

Respectfully,

Andy
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Andy said:
I'm sorry that my first real post has to be critical. (Snip)

Respectfully,

Andy
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"Andy",

I see nothing "respectiful" at all about your post. Please update your profile so we all know who you are, then maybe we can discuss your concerns.
 
OK

I guess that will be the last entertainment video for me.

Andy, I guess you've never heard of an aerobatic box. Not saying we had one or not, just you don't even offer me the opportunity of "doing it right".

Clearing turns and other stuff edited out, but good comment. Safety is priority number one for us. Head jerking in a video is really distracting.

Landing short of the displaced threshhold. You've got me on that one. At my little airport we are surrounded by trees and mountains and to get a license to operate we have a displaced threshold to keep our 22:1 clearway. When I'm clear of the trees I'd rather have concrete in front of me that behind me.

One thing this really drives home to me.
Glad I got out of the Air Force.

I took the video down because I don't want anyone to think we are promoting anything dangerous. We brief, plan and fly our briefs as everyone who is serious about formation should always do.

Thanks Andy for sharing your concerns and welcome to VAF.
 
Harrumph

Well, Jerry, I wish you hadn't removed the video. I wanted to see it. I'm sure it was worth watching, without causing me to want to run out and do the same thing. I know that I'm not qualified.

I've learned something from participation on other forums -- never respond to anonymous posters. People grow pretty big cojones when they know that they don't have to stand behind their comments.

That said, "Andy" -- whoever you are -- you have a choice here. You can be an asset here on VAF or an a$$. Your choice. You probably have a lot to offer us all from a wealth of experience. However, respect is something that usually has to be earned, and you're not off to a good start.

There's nothing wrong with criticism -- we can all learn from it when offered constructively. There are many here who have participated in the RV community for years who could deliver your same observations without ruffling any feathers. They've earned that right.

I hope you'll hang around and earn the right to challenge the participants in this forum.
 
Jerry,

Please put that video back up...I did not get a chance to see it...

Flying is dangerous. So is walking across the street and driving 75 MPH with opposing 75 MPH traffic just inches away...And we have no idea who is driving that other car or what there state of mind is.
 
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Andy said:
Again, no offense. I'm sure that you and Kahuna and Subob strive for absoute perfection every time you strap into an airplane (otherwise, there's no point in flying). But the lack of discipline evidenced in the video cheapens your efforts and has "amateur pilots" written all over it. In many ways you guys had a great ride; it's a shame to get a Q3 because of things that are so easily avoided.
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Andy, Andy, Andy,

Wow....A few minutes of edited video qualifies you to call these guys amateurs?
 
What counts is the clarity of thought and voice

Andy,

Thank you for your clearly stated and thought out post. While I don't like anonymous postings in general, I understand that it is necessary for some people due to their line of work or threats in their personal lifes. What matters is the content of the post and yours was clearly stated and well-thoughtout. I expect that the majority of VAF forum readers are relatively low-time pilots who don't know the rules limiting low-level aerobatics or when one may land short of an extended threshold. I believe that information needs to be included when "extreme" videos of legal activities are posted. When activities are illegal, well, best to keep videos off the web, IMHO.
 
Louise Hose said:
Andy,

Thank you for your clearly stated and thought out post. While I don't like anonymous postings in general, I understand that it is necessary for some people due to their line of work or threats in their personal lifes. What matters is the content of the post and yours was clearly stated and well-thoughtout. I expect that the majority of VAF forum readers are relatively low-time pilots who don't know the rules limiting low-level aerobatics or when one may land short of an extended threshold. I believe that information needs to be included when "extreme" videos of legal activities are posted. When activities are illegal, well, best to keep videos off the web, IMHO.
Click to expand...

After some of the posts in the recent safety thread, I was a little put off by what looked like attacks on the messenger by other than the OP. I thought of some different responses and hadn't settled on one i could post when you posted Louise. thanks for your time and input.
 
Andy said:
...3) LANDING. I could be mistaken here, but the sudden jerk in the video seemed to indicate that you intentionally landed well short of a displaced threshold. As I'm sure you know, you can takeoff from behind a displaced threshold but you can't land short of one. {In your defense, perhaps there was a NOTAM opening the entire surface for landing--I'll take this back if so.}...
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Andy, I am just trying to learn here, since I have never found any FAR that prohibits part 91 operation on a surface that is not designated as runway. I would ask you for a reference.

I can find in the AIM the definition of a Displace Threshold:

2. Displaced Threshold. A displaced threshold is a threshold located at a point on the runway other than the designated beginning of the runway. Displacement of a threshold reduces the length of runway available for landings. The portion of runway behind a displaced threshold is available for takeoffs in either direction and landings from the opposite direction. A ten feet wide white threshold bar is located across the width of the runway at the displaced threshold. White arrows are located along the centerline in the area between the beginning of the runway and displaced threshold. White arrow heads are located across the width of the runway just prior to the threshold bar, as shown in FIG 2-3-4.

This is from Section 3. Airport Marking Aids and Signs

What I can not find is where it says one has to land on something designated as a suitable runway.

Personally I have landed in parking lots, farmers fields, rangeland, county roads, highways and neighborhood streets. At airports I have landed between runways, before runways, on taxiways and on ramps. In each case of landing on an airport off runway, it was because that was safer than landing on the runway. I have never found a prohibition against landing on airport and off runway although I have heard that controllers at controlled airports are not allowed to clear someone to land other than on a runway. That doesn't mean that people don't do it. They advise the tower and then they do it.

If I have been operating illegally all these years, I would like to find out about it. So would many other people, some of whom would be put out of business by such a prohibition.
 
Experiencing technical difficulties

I've logged in twice and each time I've attempted to post a somewhat long reply to the previous comments.

But each time I click "submit reply", I get a dialog box that says I'm not logged in and can't play with other kids.

Needless to say, my comments are lost and I have to begin again. Before I slog through that once more, does anyone have a suggestion about what I'm doing wrong? I'll try to get this short question through. Thanks,

AB
 
Andy said:
I've logged in twice and each time I've attempted to post a somewhat long reply to the previous comments.

But each time I click "submit reply", I get a dialog box that says I'm not logged in and can't play with other kids.

Needless to say, my comments are lost and I have to begin again. Before I slog through that once more, does anyone have a suggestion about what I'm doing wrong? I'll try to get this short question through. Thanks,

AB
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When you log in, select the remember me option.
 
Create in Word if it's long

Also, I (and others) have learned to write long posts in Word so we don't lose them when this sort of thing happens (and it has happened to me. Write the response, log in, cut-and-paste, then post.
 
Sorry I Broke the Rules

I'm new to this online forum thing so please excuse my gaffes. I'll see if I can settle this to everyone's satisfaction.

1) I didn't include any personal information because I'm a private person. But if my birthdate and shoe size have a bearing on the validity of my observations, here goes: I'm Andy Beasley, I served 20 years as an Air Force pilot, I have about 4500 hours, I had an RV-4 (which is why I joined VAF three years ago in order to post it for sale), I now have an RV-3B, a friend recently suggested I check out VAF as a good source of RV information, I live in Colorado, I'm a writer, I like animals. Good enough?

2) PCHunt: I wasn't leaving myself "an out" at every point. I thought I was making it clear that I was giving Widget the benefit of the doubt. And given the fact that we've never clapped eyes on one another, I'll overlook your gratuitous slur about what kind of pilot I am.

3) ronschreck: Okay, that's who I am. Are my comments valid?

4) Widget: I sincerely thank you for your mature, honest reply. Actually, I did consider that you had an acrobatic box. I searched the A/FD (the only place I know to look) for a box you might have been in and there wasn't one in your area. So, I did try to cut you that slack. Also, I don't want you to stop posting videos--please keep it up. It's just that whenever any of us get into an airplane, we should be striving to present the absolutely perfect example of how to perform whatever mission it is that we're engaged in. And I just felt your video didn't do that. That's what I meant about "amateur pilots"--I'm sure you fly like a pro but the video didn't do you justice. I hope you see my point. Finally, I'm sorry about your negative USAF experience. All my old USAF flying buddies that I hang around with are finger-on-the-chest, face-to-face critical kind of guys and I just assumed you were as well. I apologize if I sounded harsh.

5) N8RV: good comments.

6) Brantel: please see my comments to Widget re: the "amateur" remark.

7) Louise: Thank you! Your response is exactly what I was hoping for. That's why I didn't think my personal information was relevant; I just assumed that everyone would read my comments, watch the video and draw their own conclusions about the flight in question. I didn't expect that I would become the story. Your quality of reasoning is superb.

8) Danny7: Thank you! My feelings exactly.

9) n51p: Yes, the AIM is the reference for airport markings--thresholds, hold lines, etc.--and spells out the rules for airport operations. For displaced thresholds, I honor the AIM guidance just the same as I would hold lines and all the rest for non-emergency ops. About your other ideas on other landing sites, I'll leave that to someone with more civilian experience than I have. I hold strong opinions on that subject, but they're just opinions and I think you'll understand if I say that I've grown weary of arguing for now.

Thanks for your feedback. Believe me, I've learned a lot about what's acceptable and unacceptable here.

AB
 
So let me see if I have this right, Andy's comments are without merit because he doesn't feel like telling thousands of strangers his full name, location, and occupation? This is such B.S. I can hardly believe I'm reading it. Regarding the minimum altitude question, was it a violation or not? Could this be why the video is gone?
 
Been sitting on the sidelines entertaining myself with the comments.
Ill give you a few.
First these are professional, current, aerobatic SAC waiver card holders. Not that it matters.
1. Air show pilots as a rule 'zero altimeters' to display AGL numbers for flight. Not that it matters.
2. He should NEVER be checking anything but either his lead if he is a wingman, or his nose/instruments as lead. He is not allowed to look around. He is missioned as lead to focus on alt, speeds, box position etc. The moment I see him looking around and leaving his focus on his dedicated job, I kick out and key up. A formation lead in this type of maneuvering is moving back and forth over the same box area. No looking back allowed. No looking around allowed. Everything is very precise and coordinated. Everything going on is in front of him, with or without wingman, in all maneuvers. This is done by design and the routine is by design to allow for this. Not that it matters.
3. The briefing of floors and routine is extensive and normal course of business for these guys. Much work is done in this area. Not that it matters.
4. Landing on a threshold? Man thats a new one.

"amateur pilots"? Well thats too subjective for me to comment on. You all can back and to amongst each other and Ill watch some more. This is fun.
Best,





Andy said:
I'm sorry that my first real post has to be critical. I just watched this video because I love aerobatics and I'm passionate about formation. Maybe I was a USAF Flight Examiner too long, but three things gave me a "I can't believe I'm watching this" sort of feeling.

1) ALTITUDE. Widget, was that lake Sidney Lanier you guys were flying over? If so, I believe the surface of the lake is 1070' MSL. I lost count of the number of times when your altimeter read 1500' to 1700'. Now, maybe someone changed Part 91 when I wasn't looking, but the min altitude for aerobatics is 1500' AGL. All three of you repeatedly led your flight below the FAR minimum altitude, which makes me think that there was no discussion of a "floor" in your preflight briefing. {Please tell me if you were really over a different lake--with a 0' MSL surface--and I'll gladly withdraw the criticism.}

2) VISUAL LOOKOUT/CLEARING. Maybe you edited out all your good clearing time to keep your viewers from getting dizzy. But the video gives the impression that you almost never checked anything but 12 when you were leading (and even during your free time as #3 in the Cuban 8).

3) LANDING. I could be mistaken here, but the sudden jerk in the video seemed to indicate that you intentionally landed well short of a displaced threshold. As I'm sure you know, you can takeoff from behind a displaced threshold but you can't land short of one. {In your defense, perhaps there was a NOTAM opening the entire surface for landing--I'll take this back if so.}

I'm not trying to embarrass anyone with these observations. But I'm concerned about two things: that younger pilots will take this as a demonstration of the proper way to fly, and that your needlessly low aerobatics will eventually spoil it for the rest of us.

Again, no offense. I'm sure that you and Kahuna and Subob strive for absoute perfection every time you strap into an airplane (otherwise, there's no point in flying). But the lack of discipline evidenced in the video cheapens your efforts and has "amateur pilots" written all over it. In many ways you guys had a great ride; it's a shame to get a Q3 because of things that are so easily avoided.

Respectfully,

Andy
Click to expand...
 
I have to comment

szicree said:
So let me see if I have this right, Andy's comments are without merit because he doesn't feel like telling thousands of strangers his full name, location, and occupation? This is such B.S. I can hardly believe I'm reading it. Regarding the minimum altitude question, was it a violation or not? Could this be why the video is gone?
Click to expand...

a bit on all the posts.

Thanks for all the insight no matter how you weigh in on the matter.
I pulled the video because I don't want anybody thinking we are out violating a bunch of regs and endangering anyone. We weren't.

Like I said earlier, we were well briefed and flew the brief. When I'm practicing I always zero my altimeter so there's no guesswork where the floor is, so no that is not the reason the video was pulled.

I think Kahuna summed up all the clearing stuff.

I stated my opinion about landing a few feet before the line at my home field so that doesn't need anymore beating.

As for being an amatuer pilot, well, I guess that's in the eyes of the beholder also. I strive to do every flight better than the last and always learn something. So far that philosophy has kept me safely in the air for 42 years and many many thousands of accident and incident free hours. I too was an examiner in the USAF, and the airlines so I can see where Andy's coming from. I just say that ones judgement and life experiences weigh heavily on how they operate daily.

I'll always accept constructive criticism and Andy's was not out of line. All valid questions and we can all learn from them.

Keep the blue side up, mostly.
 
Welcome, Andy! Nice to meet you. :D

I appreciate your consideration of my comments. Some, like Steve, don't have a problem with anonymous posters being critical, and that's OK. We're not all wired the same. I just have a personal rule about arguing with people who hide behind anonymity. That doesn't make me right or those who may disagree wrong -- it's personal preference. If somebody's gonna stick his finger in MY face and tell me I'm wrong, I just want to know who's doing the pointing. Otherwise, I won't waste my time, that's all.

And, just so you'll know that I'm not just trying to be an idiot (although it IS one of the things that I do best, according to some), I logged onto a professional forum once and stumbled upon a thread where someone was really being a jerk -- calling someone out for what seemed like a simple mistake. I got righteously pissed and chimed in, telling them all what I thought of their childish behavior.

Then it was pointed out to me (very graciously, I might add) that there were THREE pages to the thread and I was getting all bent out of shape over something that was posted on the first page, and that all parties had already aired things out and made friends. Then I come along and ... sheesh ...

I learned my lesson then about forums. The written word is hard enough sometimes to get across what is intended. And while Steve may not agree that who you are makes a difference when offering criticism on a public forum, I'd bet most would agree that someone like Paul Dye or Doug Rozendaal (sorry to pick on you, guys) could have offered the very same criticism and it would have been accepted more readily than from a complete stranger. That's all I was saying.

Again, welcome, Andy. I'm hoping to learn a lot more from you in the future!
 
I enjoy posts such as that by Widget. Keep them coming. I am an adult and am totally responsible for my actions. I fly my plane within my limits. Just because I see Widget or Sean Tucker preforming difficult activities doesn't mean I'm going out and try same.

I also think Andy can say whatever he wants--it is his opinion. He may be asked to defend it.

What does bother me are posters like Louise and Danny that "pile on" without waiting for any sort of rebuttal or defense of accusations regarding the original post.

Mark
 
The good and bad of it

I must say other that Wiget pulling the video this is a very healthy thread. With all the talk about have a high fatality rate in 2009 we need good discussions like this one to open our eyes and stay alert and be able to fly another day. I didn't get to see the video. I did get to see concerned VAF members for each others safety and enjoyment. That is what is most important so that we all can continue doing what we love.:)

I hope to see the video. Keep up the debates. We can all strive to be beter everytime we take to the skies.
 
I just watched the video, saw only one ship, and nothing illegal. It is very entertaining however.

Hi, Andy. Welcome. :rolleyes:
 
Final thoughts

I thought I'd wrap up my inputs to this thread.

szicree: thanks for your comments; you're right on target.

N8RV: thanks, you're a gentleman.

Widget: I'm sorry you pulled the video--I think it has more demand than Avatar. The ground perspective as you finished your over-the-tops is what I initially cued into when I criticized your altitude. If you say you zeroed your altimeter and were really at 1500' AGL, that's good enough for me. So shall it be written, so shall it be done. Case closed.

Kahuna: I value your input. We have a significant disagreement about clearing during a formation flight but I won't hijack this thread and hash that out here.

gnuse: you watched a different video if it only had one plane. This thread is about "3-ship acro." Thanks for your welcome. I'm touched.

I'm clearly not a very good writer because no one has understood what I meant by my "amateur pilot" remark. To wit: the wrong things on a video will make even the best pilot look bad. Let's drop it.

Peace on earth, all the best to you and yours, etc., etc.

AB
 
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