What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Painting over cured epoxy?

RV7Factory

Chief Obfuscation Officer
With other recent conversations about primer, spray guns and paint shops, I have started thinking about the long term prospect of painting my airplane.

I am currently using PPG DP48LF Epoxy Primer (also a sealer); My question for the paint experts out there is what prep am I or the paint shop going to have to go through on the exposed primed parts (e.g. rear wing spars)? The instructions for the PPG tell you to paint within days of priming, but we all know that it is often years between when a part is primed and then painted. Maybe a simple scuff-sand is all that will be needed, but I am just curious, and I just want to know if I am going to run into any issues long term (when it is painted).

Thanks!
 
Last edited:
Nope, scuff sand isn't going to cut it.
The reason you have to paint soon after priming with the DPLF is because it has a chemical "open" time before it case hardens. Once it case hardens, even if you sand it thoroughly, any paint you put on top of it will eventually delaminate.

The simple answer is that all you need to do is to sand thoroughly, but then spray a fresh coat of DPLF (overthinned a little so it's more of a sealer). Then you come back and paint the same day (preferably). Then you'll have a bullet proof finish.

It's that simple. ;)
 
Vern, thanks for the info... simple my arse! ;)

Knowing that I do eventually want to paint, I am starting to question whether my decision to use the DPLF on exterior facing parts (parts that will get painted) was a good idea. The stuff is bomb-proof for interior parts, but I am now getting the impression it is going to be very tough to paint anything that was primed with it. I am thinking that it will be near impossible to sand, prime and paint the rear spar through the holes in the flap brace.

I guess I could switch primers (for exterior facing parts) to something a little more acceptable to long-term painting.

Any thoughts... anyone? Again, I am just trying to avoid long-term issues.
 
I'm in pretty much the same situation, but with AKZO. I'm sure the paint experts will correct me if I'm way off here, but I think a primer like DP48 protects just fine from moisture, but doesn't hold up to UV very well. This being said, I plan on scuffing as good as possible on areas I can reach, but on the other stuff (like behind the flap brace) I'll just take my chances.

Incidently, the AKZO primer is cheaper than the DP, dries way quicker, sprays better without thinning and is solvent proof when dried, which is certainly not true for the DP. I've used this and the DP, and for internal structures I MUCH prefer the AKZO.

Steve Zicree
RV4 finishing
 
Nope, don't change anything; keep using the DPLF because it's the best long term protection and durability you can get from a primer.

It's really no different on the outside parts because you're going to sand and prep those parts anyway. It's no extra work to sand the DPLF with 320 the same time you're sanding the bare aluminum as you prep for overall prime and paint.

As far as internal parts go that you can't come back and sand, they don't show anyway so don't worry about it. The case hardended DPLF is a great long term protectant all by itself with nothing over it. That's why it's so good for internal parts to begin with.

For myself, I'm using the Sanchem prep chemicals for the internals of the empennage because I don't want even an ounce of extra weight back there. RV7's like weight up front but not in back.

Also as far as the internal surfaces, don't forget that from a practical standpoint, you really don't "need" anything at all inside since the internals are alclad to start with so don't get too hung up with all that.

The steel, yea, you need to prime with the DPLF.
 
The best primer you can get for aircraft is Mil-Spec Chromated Epoxy primer. The Mil-Spec number slips my mind right now. I'm not a big fan of using PPG products on aircraft. They are mainly designed for cars.
 
There really isn't any single best primer for all circumstances. If the airplane never leaves Arizona, the best primer might be no primer. If the airplane is based near the ocean, an epoxy might be the way to go. In between, there are a thousand answers.

However, for exterior surfaces, it is best to try and avoid priming right until the end of the process. If you have a compulsion to prime rivet holes, use a q-tip to apply your primer of choice to the holes, then assemble. Spray the *real* coat of exterior primer just prior to finish painting...
 
KTM520guy said:
The best primer you can get for aircraft is Mil-Spec Chromated Epoxy primer. The Mil-Spec number slips my mind right now. <SNIP>
Yes, I am in South Africa and was looking for a product, with some help from Highflight, I settled on the mill spec 5567a used by the British.
See this link to the PDF if you are interested in it and if it might help you. The product details I use here in South Africa are available here:

Kind Regards
Rudi
 
Thanks guys... great info. I think I will just stick with my PPG DP48LF for now. If I had it to do over again, I would choose Akzo, simply for the cost reasons that were brought up.

Just to be clear, I wasn't talking about priming the exterior skins of the plane, I will leave that until paint time. I was primarily concerned with those parts that typically get primed during construction (e.g. HS spar or rear wing spars) that are somewhat exposed (but not really).

Another builder has told me these parts may not even get paint, so my original question may be somewhat moot.

Thanks again!
 
You should not have any peelage problems if you sand correctly.

"The Big D" is not rural. No soup for you! :p

:D
 
KTM520guy said:
You should not have any peelage problems if you sand correctly.

"The Big D" is not rural. No soup for you! :p

:D

That sounds like a good theory, but my experience has shown otherwise.

I used DP40 almost exclusively as a primer sealer in my collision repair shop for well over a dozen years because it was better than anything else I could find (I warranteed my paint work for as long as the customer owned his/her car so I had to be serious about the materials and processes I used).
But I got bit more than once by my painter not reshooting DP as a sealer when he came back over a sanded DP application and just painted if the car sat too long.

The typical scenario was for a car to be primed with DP and then sit a few days while we continued to prep other cars (in a production shop, you have to always keep working, and sometimes, a job was delayed waiting for parts).
By the time the final sanding and prep was done, it could be a week or so before we were ready to paint, but my painter would think it was OK to go right into color because, technically, he was still within the cure time. However, hot summer days in Houston shortens up the time that DP will case harden.

To make the long story short, I had to redo a couple of these cars, and it was amazing to see an area where the paint had peeled off, leaving that really purty look of nicely sanded DP underneath.

Paint adheres by both mechanical adhesion AND chemical adhesion, and while you "might" get lucky with just sanding DP and going to color beyond it's cure time, I'll take chemical adhesion over mechanical adhesion any day if I want a truly long term finish.
Even when you get lucky and the paint doesn't peel off in chunks, you'll still see that a finish applied without repriming beyond the "open time" of the DP will chip much easier when hit with gravel or whatever.

You have to understand that conventional (non-curing) primers stay open indefinitely which results in two features:
1. Since a non-curing primer stays open indefinitely, all you have to do is sand before painting because that primer will allow the topcoats to bond with it by "soaking in".
2. A curing primer like DPLF goes "closed" after about a week so even if sanded, the topcoat can't penetrate it for the kind of improved bond you can get with a sanded conventional primer.
Even then, the chemical bond between a topcoat and fresh DP has much more integrety than the bond between a sanded conventional primer and the paint on top of it.

It's also been said that any primer MUST be topcoated to achieve full protection of the base material. That's true, however, DPLF isn't just "any" primer. Yes it does stay chemically open for about 7 days (that's pushing it) and during that time it can be contaminated because it isn't yet a chemical barrier, but after that, it does serve as a good protectant all by itself.
Yes, it is designed to be topcoated for full intended protection, but it's better than just any primer without a topcoat. For typical inside applications, it's really more than you need.
Conventional, non-curing, primers are terrible protectants by themselves because they never "close" and are not at all a good barrier against moisture and other contaminants which is why they must be topcoated.

And since your info says just "Texas", I had to assume you were in the middle of nowhere and in a town nobody would recognize. :D
Unless, of coarse, you're embarrased to live in Dallas and don't want anyone to know?... :p
I still want my soup.
 
Last edited:
Just living in Texas is 'nuff said :)

The DP primers may be like that. I'm not a big PPG user. Everything I use is aviation oriented.
 
Back from the dead

I am reviving my old thread in the hopes someone can help me come up with specific action plan...

The aft side of my rear wing spars were primed some time ago with PPG DP48LF mixed with the reducer so as to act as a sealer. It was done months ago, before I knew better. ;)

Question is this... before I rivet the aileron gap seals and flap braces onto the wings, is there anything I can or should do NOW to the DP48LF on aft (exposed) side of the rear spar? Or should I just leave it be and let the painter deal with it? As I mentioned earlier, I can imagine that scuffing or prepping the old cured/sealed primer through the holes in the flap brace will be a real PITA.

Thanks!
 
KTM520guy said:
The best primer you can get for aircraft is Mil-Spec Chromated Epoxy primer. The Mil-Spec number slips my mind right now. I'm not a big fan of using PPG products on aircraft. They are mainly designed for cars.


DITTO!!! seen many aluminum cars lately?
 
RV7Factory said:
Question is this... before I rivet the aileron gap seals and flap braces onto the wings, is there anything I can or should do NOW to the DP48LF on aft (exposed) side of the rear spar? Or should I just leave it be and let the painter deal with it? As I mentioned earlier, I can imagine that scuffing or prepping the old cured/sealed primer through the holes in the flap brace will be a real PITA.

Thanks!


Paint it a color, then let the painter deal with it. Least you wont have grease and oil soaking in to the primer there.
 
They used to ....

Originally Posted by KTM520guy
The best primer you can get for aircraft is Mil-Spec Chromated Epoxy primer. The Mil-Spec number slips my mind right now. I'm not a big fan of using PPG products on aircraft. They are mainly designed for cars.


PainterJohn said:
DITTO!!! seen many aluminum cars lately?

PPG had a DP primer that was actually on the MIL-P-23377 QPL list - I think it was DP-70.

Unfortunately they no longer make it when they switched to the "greener" DPLF stuff....

gil in Tucson
 
Well, I know I did several things wrong when I primed and painted my plane 6 1/2 yrs/875 hrs ago. But the DP50 primer I used was upwards of three years old in some locations when I painted my plane with acrylic enamel. With very few exceptions, the paint has adhered/stuck/bonded/held very well. Those areas where it didn't were pretty much the result of surface prep or underlying problems.

But then again, being a born, raised and have built my plane in Texas may have been an unfair advantage.

BTW - y'all see that football game in Austin yesterday? Better luck next year, tea sippers!
 
Last edited:
Scotchbrite then shoot thinned DPLF

I had the same question about exceeding DPLF topcoat window of 7 days @70 degrees F, so I called PPG tech support.

If you exceed the 7 day window, scuff with Scotchbrite Gray, clean with their prep solvent, then shoot a thinned DPLF. Proportions are: 2:1:1/2 (DPLF:DP401LF:DT870 reducer). Then the window is open for another 7 days to topcoat.

Art
 
Back
Top