Van's Air Force
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hartzell propeller
- Thread starter fatwing
- Start date
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
What is the number?
Is it a HC-C2YK with F7666-4 blades?
As far has hours and years, it is like an engine TBO, it's a guide line.
Hours are one thing, but the killer is corrosion. If hangered, out of the weather, the years are not an issue in my opinion. The hours are very low, so if it operates well and does not spit grease, than I would be OK flying, it as is.
Is this 300 since NEW?
How much?
Is it a HC-C2YK with F7666-4 blades?
As far has hours and years, it is like an engine TBO, it's a guide line.
Hours are one thing, but the killer is corrosion. If hangered, out of the weather, the years are not an issue in my opinion. The hours are very low, so if it operates well and does not spit grease, than I would be OK flying, it as is.
Is this 300 since NEW?
How much?
Tom McCutcheon
Well Known Member
Hartzel prop
I don't know how Hartzell would treat you under the same conditions. However, my son as an MT prop and the pitch block broke allowing one blade to have as much as 7 degrees more pitch than the other. The prop has only 300 hours but something like 10 years. MT won't stand behind it because of it going past the 72 month service period. If it had been serviced they would have stood behind the failure to some extent because they said that it was defective and had never seen this failure before. We assume that their position is that they would have had an opportunity to see the failure beginning before it became an issue. The difference may end up costing him several thousand dollars.
I don't know how Hartzell would treat you under the same conditions. However, my son as an MT prop and the pitch block broke allowing one blade to have as much as 7 degrees more pitch than the other. The prop has only 300 hours but something like 10 years. MT won't stand behind it because of it going past the 72 month service period. If it had been serviced they would have stood behind the failure to some extent because they said that it was defective and had never seen this failure before. We assume that their position is that they would have had an opportunity to see the failure beginning before it became an issue. The difference may end up costing him several thousand dollars.
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gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
Warranty
Good Point Tom. I don't know what Hartzell's warranty is like, but I assumed the used unit was out of warranty. Sorry MT would not service your prop. GTom McCutcheon said:
osxuser
Well Known Member
I've always gone with the 6 year TBO, but some people will pull them off and have them "inspected and resealed". The step this leaves out in the entire process is grinding the blades down. It costs a bit less and doesn't reduce the life of the prop (4 grinds max on a blade). I still think it's one of the most critical parts on an airplane. If you lose your engine, you can glide, if you lose a prop blade, chances are you're toast.
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
TBO 6 years or 2400 hours
K I T P L A N E A P P L I C A T I O N G U I D E
Manufacturer: Van's Aircraft Inc.
Aircraft Model(s): RV-4, RV-6, RV-7, RV-8
Applicable Engines: O-360-A1A series 180 hp @ 2700 rpm
(I)O-360-A1A, B1A series 180 hp @ 2700 rpm
IO-360 A1A series 200 hp @ 2700 rpm
IO-360-B1B series 180 hp @ 2700 rpm
Propeller Model & Components:
Propeller HC-C2YK-1BF/F7666A-2 (74" diameter)
Propeller HC-C2YK-1BF/F7666A-4 (72" diameter)
Spinner AEROBATIC A836-60 OR VAN'S
Governor VAN'S
Features:
STANDARD HARTZELL DESIGN WITH MANY YEARS AND HOURS OF PROVEN RELIABILITY
Non-Feathering
Constant-Speed
Compact Series Propeller
Aluminium Hub/Aluminium Blade Construction
Specifications:
HC-C2YK-1BF/F7666A-(2,4)
74" OR 72" DIAMETER TWO BLADE PROPELLER
6 YEAR 2400 HOUR TBO / 1000 HOUR AEROBATIC
72" MINIMUM REPAIR DIAMETER
Restrictions:
The following restrictions apply to the HC-C2YK-1BF/F7666A-(2,4) propeller on the RV aircraft with:
Lycoming IO-360-A1A 200 HP engine: "Avoid continuous operations between 2000 and 2350 rpm."
Lycoming (I)O-360-A, B 180 HP series engine: "Avoid continuous operations between 2000 and 2250 rpm."
If you have Lightspeed Electronic Ignition (LEI) and/or High Compression pistons (HCP) on (I)O-360-A, B 180HP, limit RPM to 2,600 RPM as soon as practical after takeoff and total blade service life is 8,700 hours.
If the engine has crankshaft dampers, there are no restrictions on the propeller from 74" to 72" diameters.
George
K I T P L A N E A P P L I C A T I O N G U I D E
Manufacturer: Van's Aircraft Inc.
Aircraft Model(s): RV-4, RV-6, RV-7, RV-8
Applicable Engines: O-360-A1A series 180 hp @ 2700 rpm
(I)O-360-A1A, B1A series 180 hp @ 2700 rpm
IO-360 A1A series 200 hp @ 2700 rpm
IO-360-B1B series 180 hp @ 2700 rpm
Propeller Model & Components:
Propeller HC-C2YK-1BF/F7666A-2 (74" diameter)
Propeller HC-C2YK-1BF/F7666A-4 (72" diameter)
Spinner AEROBATIC A836-60 OR VAN'S
Governor VAN'S
Features:
STANDARD HARTZELL DESIGN WITH MANY YEARS AND HOURS OF PROVEN RELIABILITY
Non-Feathering
Constant-Speed
Compact Series Propeller
Aluminium Hub/Aluminium Blade Construction
Specifications:
HC-C2YK-1BF/F7666A-(2,4)
74" OR 72" DIAMETER TWO BLADE PROPELLER
6 YEAR 2400 HOUR TBO / 1000 HOUR AEROBATIC
72" MINIMUM REPAIR DIAMETER
Restrictions:
The following restrictions apply to the HC-C2YK-1BF/F7666A-(2,4) propeller on the RV aircraft with:
Lycoming IO-360-A1A 200 HP engine: "Avoid continuous operations between 2000 and 2350 rpm."
Lycoming (I)O-360-A, B 180 HP series engine: "Avoid continuous operations between 2000 and 2250 rpm."
If you have Lightspeed Electronic Ignition (LEI) and/or High Compression pistons (HCP) on (I)O-360-A, B 180HP, limit RPM to 2,600 RPM as soon as practical after takeoff and total blade service life is 8,700 hours.
If the engine has crankshaft dampers, there are no restrictions on the propeller from 74" to 72" diameters.
George
Bob Martin
Well Known Member
6 yrs
RV-6 0-360 A1A C/S prop new from Vans in 1994.
Always hangared, appeared in perfect shape.
At 7 yrs and 300 hrs TT I asked Hartzel rep at Oshkosh about the 6 yr thing.
They stand by it, for liability reasons but said the main reason for looking inside the hub is for corrosion. aparently, some air carriers, especially ones based in the western states with drier air and flying lots of time quickly document the good condition at OH and get a wavier from the FAA to push the requirements longer.
That said, I postponed the OH on my -6, and at 9 yrs and 450 hrs, I started getting a very light spray of tiny dots on the windshield, so small I didn't even think it was anything wrong with the plane, hindsight is really something!
a few flying hours later, while wiping the plane down after a local flight, the tiny dots were larger and on the cowling around the air intakes and it was obvious something was amiss. Off with the spinner and I found a glob of grease that had built up inside the spinner at the seal failure point and was slowly working its way out the joint between the spinner and backplate.
The OH shop (1800.00) said an internal oil seal had failed and put oil in the grease cavity and pushed the grease out.
I'm glad it happened on a local flight and not in the middle of a multi-day xcountry as the decision to continue flight would have been a hard one based on stories I've read about pilots losing forward visability from oil on the canopy. After the investigation, again with hindsight, I'd flown it for several hours with the leak without knowing it, so maybe it would have been ok for a few more, but I'm sure I'd have made the right decision and grounded the plane until I could get it fixed.
So, past the 6 yrs recomendation, its a guess and should be considered preventative maintenance. BTW, there wasn't any corrosion in my hub, so my decision to continue flying past 6yrs, based on low time and always being hangared was the right one, who knew a seal would fail.
Now that you are aware of Hartzel recomendation, ask around, like you are doing here, of the "certified' planes. My hangar mate just bought a 182, and while shopping, found lots of planes that hadn't complied with it, with varying opinions from the owners.
I will most likely go past 6 yrs again, but will watch the prop area closer!!
but then again, in 6 yrs, I'll be wiser and richer, so maybe I will have it OH'd.
or most likely a take apart and re-seal job, as we don't actually have to have them OH'd.
Just my 2 cents.
Bob Martin
RV-6 N94TB
Louisa VA
RV-6 0-360 A1A C/S prop new from Vans in 1994.
Always hangared, appeared in perfect shape.
At 7 yrs and 300 hrs TT I asked Hartzel rep at Oshkosh about the 6 yr thing.
They stand by it, for liability reasons but said the main reason for looking inside the hub is for corrosion. aparently, some air carriers, especially ones based in the western states with drier air and flying lots of time quickly document the good condition at OH and get a wavier from the FAA to push the requirements longer.
That said, I postponed the OH on my -6, and at 9 yrs and 450 hrs, I started getting a very light spray of tiny dots on the windshield, so small I didn't even think it was anything wrong with the plane, hindsight is really something!
a few flying hours later, while wiping the plane down after a local flight, the tiny dots were larger and on the cowling around the air intakes and it was obvious something was amiss. Off with the spinner and I found a glob of grease that had built up inside the spinner at the seal failure point and was slowly working its way out the joint between the spinner and backplate.
The OH shop (1800.00) said an internal oil seal had failed and put oil in the grease cavity and pushed the grease out.
I'm glad it happened on a local flight and not in the middle of a multi-day xcountry as the decision to continue flight would have been a hard one based on stories I've read about pilots losing forward visability from oil on the canopy. After the investigation, again with hindsight, I'd flown it for several hours with the leak without knowing it, so maybe it would have been ok for a few more, but I'm sure I'd have made the right decision and grounded the plane until I could get it fixed.
So, past the 6 yrs recomendation, its a guess and should be considered preventative maintenance. BTW, there wasn't any corrosion in my hub, so my decision to continue flying past 6yrs, based on low time and always being hangared was the right one, who knew a seal would fail.
Now that you are aware of Hartzel recomendation, ask around, like you are doing here, of the "certified' planes. My hangar mate just bought a 182, and while shopping, found lots of planes that hadn't complied with it, with varying opinions from the owners.
I will most likely go past 6 yrs again, but will watch the prop area closer!!
but then again, in 6 yrs, I'll be wiser and richer, so maybe I will have it OH'd.
or most likely a take apart and re-seal job, as we don't actually have to have them OH'd.
Just my 2 cents.
Bob Martin
RV-6 N94TB
Louisa VA
thanks guys
thank you for your comments. I believe lycoming has a recomended calender time limit on engines that is ignored by most aircraft owners. It seems a bit of an overkill to grind down blades that look new and have low hours when it is hub corrosion and seals that is the concern at this point.
I like the idea of a tear down inspection reseal and reassemble, but so far have not found a shop that is willing. Any idea's? BTW this aircraft has always been hangared.
thank you for your comments. I believe lycoming has a recomended calender time limit on engines that is ignored by most aircraft owners. It seems a bit of an overkill to grind down blades that look new and have low hours when it is hub corrosion and seals that is the concern at this point.
I like the idea of a tear down inspection reseal and reassemble, but so far have not found a shop that is willing. Any idea's? BTW this aircraft has always been hangared.
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
Hartzell Overhaul, AD's and info
While it is apart prop shops tend to want to do everything, and depending on serial numbers they need to do shot peen or other checks. Once they take it apart, clean, inspect and put in new seals it is not much more to do the whole thing. Some shops treat all props alike, regardless if it is for an experimental or not, they will not touch it unless they do the full meal deal.
I agree about whittling the blades down needlessly. Most shops take the min amount off the blades if at all possible, if they are any good.
I have owned and flown two HC-C2YK's and a M2YR and never had a problem, seals or otherwise.
Here is some good data on the HC-C2YK. If you have a newer model most if not all AD's DO NOT apply (please check to confirm). Most of the SB's and SL's are not applicable or info only. This Prop has been in service in one form since about 1964 and used on engines up to 350 HP. In service problems in the early days where on older versions of the Prop in severe agricultural or aerobatic operations. This is a good prop hub and blade and a very mature design. The blades can take up to 250HP @ 2900 RPM, and the hub with different larger blades can take 300 HP. The issue of any older prop (more than 10-15 years, which the one for sale above is NOT, is corrosion. Corrosion is not a problem if kept out of the weather, especially salt air. Dis-use is a problem also. Corrosion is and issue for old props sitting outside for decades, with out overhaul, way longer than 6 years.
Airworthiness Directive and Service Document Effectivity List
Report for Propeller Model / Blade Model: HC-C2YK-1 / 7666
Overhaul Manual: 113B; Owner's Manual: 115N; Blade Overhaul Manual: 133C
Airworthiness Directives Effective
AD 2005-14-11 These actions are against propeller models returned to service by Southern California Propeller Service. Southern California Propeller Service is not to be confused with propeller repair stations known as California Propeller or as Propeller Service of California. Southern California Propeller Service was issued Air Agency Certificate number of VXSR617L in 1992, which was revoked in June of 1998. 8/17/2005
AD 2003-13-17 Inspections of various propeller models returned to service by T and W Propellers, Inc. 7/18/2003
AD 2003-01-03 Replacement of certain Hartzell serial numbered two-bladed aluminum propeller hubs part numbers D-6522-1, D-6522-2, D-6529-1, and D-6550-3 installed on affected propeller models. 1/23/2003
AD 2002-09-08 Inspections and rework of Hartzell "Y'' shank aluminum blades. AD 2002-09-08 supersedes AD 77-12-06R2. 6/13/2002
AD 01-23-08 Eddy Current Inspection and hub replacement of the affected propellers as specified. 12/24/2001
AD 01-07-03 Hartzell Propeller Inc. Y-shank series propellers that were returned to service by Brothers Aero Services Company, Inc. (BASCO). 6/4/2001
AD 64-20-01 There have been incidents of failure of the plastic pitch change blocks in Hartzell HC-E2YL-2B and HC-C2YK-1 propellers which resulted in severe roughness or vibration in flight. 8/28/1964
Service Bulletins Effective
SB HC-SB-61-227 Rev. 4 An initial and recurring eddy current inspection of the propeller hub fillert radius and optional replacement of the hub as terminating action. 10/4/2005
SB HC-SB-61-269 Hub Inspection 4/18/2005
SB 136I Additional Overhaul and Inspection Procedures for Single and Double-Shoulder Blade Bores. 4/25/2003
SB HC-ASB-61-259 Hub Replacement 9/4/2002
SB HC-SB-61-118, Rev. F Rework Procedures for "Y" Shank Aluminum Propeller Blades. 8/15/2002
SB HC-SB-61-218 Compressive stress layer on certain Q-Tip blades. 2/19/1996
SB 97A Additional Overhaul Procedures for Certain Blade Designs. 3/1/1973
SB 86 Failure of A-2217 Pitch Change Block. 8/2/1963
Service Instructions Effective
SI 152A Replacement of Hub Bolts During Overhaul 12/7/1990
SI 107 Replacing slimserts installed in counterweighted blades that may have been inadvertently damaged and need replacement. 4/15/1976
SL HC-SL-61-252 Propeller - A-80-( ) Bolt Recall 11/3/2005
SL HC-SL-61-244 This Service Letter introduces a optional self-locking nut, P/N B-3599. 2/28/2005
SL HC-SL-61-212, Rev. 1 Introduction of Overhaul Kits 1/14/2005
SL HC-SL-61-189, Rev. 2 Service Tools, Consumable Materials, and Standard Practices, Application Guide, Blade Ovehaul, and Spinner Maintenance 9/15/2004
SL HC-SL-61-234 Boot Installation 9/15/2004
SL HC-SL-61-61, Rev. Y Overhaul Periods and Service Life Limits for Hartzell Propellers, Governors, and Propeller Damper Assemblies 4/1/2004
SL HC-SL-61-229 Introduction of New Propeller Labels 8/19/2003
SL HC-SL-61-187, Rev. 2 Alternate Lubrication Fitting 6/24/2003
SL HC-SL-61-217 Replacement of Hardware at Propeller Overhaul 3/21/2003
SL HC-SL-61-223 Hub/Fork Interference 8/30/2002
SL HC-SL-61-172, rev.1 New Fee for Parts Evaluation 3/15/2000
SL HC-SL-61-185 Tachometers 4/12/1999
SL HC-SL-61-177 Ball Bearings - New Part Number/Usage 2/4/1997
SL HC-SL-61-165 Abnormal Vibration or Grease Leakage 12/7/1995
SL 154 Identification of Springs as Used in Various Hartzell Propellers 5/13/1985
SL 69 Pitch Change Parts 11/30/1971
As of 11/10/2005
If you did not know you can get all the AD's off the FAA's web site:
FAA AD LOOK UP
Type in the AD number above and it brings up a summary and you can down load an Adobe document of the AD. You can get a free Adobe reader on line here. FREE ADOBE READER
George
While it is apart prop shops tend to want to do everything, and depending on serial numbers they need to do shot peen or other checks. Once they take it apart, clean, inspect and put in new seals it is not much more to do the whole thing. Some shops treat all props alike, regardless if it is for an experimental or not, they will not touch it unless they do the full meal deal.
I agree about whittling the blades down needlessly. Most shops take the min amount off the blades if at all possible, if they are any good.
I have owned and flown two HC-C2YK's and a M2YR and never had a problem, seals or otherwise.
Here is some good data on the HC-C2YK. If you have a newer model most if not all AD's DO NOT apply (please check to confirm). Most of the SB's and SL's are not applicable or info only. This Prop has been in service in one form since about 1964 and used on engines up to 350 HP. In service problems in the early days where on older versions of the Prop in severe agricultural or aerobatic operations. This is a good prop hub and blade and a very mature design. The blades can take up to 250HP @ 2900 RPM, and the hub with different larger blades can take 300 HP. The issue of any older prop (more than 10-15 years, which the one for sale above is NOT, is corrosion. Corrosion is not a problem if kept out of the weather, especially salt air. Dis-use is a problem also. Corrosion is and issue for old props sitting outside for decades, with out overhaul, way longer than 6 years.
Airworthiness Directive and Service Document Effectivity List
Report for Propeller Model / Blade Model: HC-C2YK-1 / 7666
Overhaul Manual: 113B; Owner's Manual: 115N; Blade Overhaul Manual: 133C
Airworthiness Directives Effective
AD 2005-14-11 These actions are against propeller models returned to service by Southern California Propeller Service. Southern California Propeller Service is not to be confused with propeller repair stations known as California Propeller or as Propeller Service of California. Southern California Propeller Service was issued Air Agency Certificate number of VXSR617L in 1992, which was revoked in June of 1998. 8/17/2005
AD 2003-13-17 Inspections of various propeller models returned to service by T and W Propellers, Inc. 7/18/2003
AD 2003-01-03 Replacement of certain Hartzell serial numbered two-bladed aluminum propeller hubs part numbers D-6522-1, D-6522-2, D-6529-1, and D-6550-3 installed on affected propeller models. 1/23/2003
AD 2002-09-08 Inspections and rework of Hartzell "Y'' shank aluminum blades. AD 2002-09-08 supersedes AD 77-12-06R2. 6/13/2002
AD 01-23-08 Eddy Current Inspection and hub replacement of the affected propellers as specified. 12/24/2001
AD 01-07-03 Hartzell Propeller Inc. Y-shank series propellers that were returned to service by Brothers Aero Services Company, Inc. (BASCO). 6/4/2001
AD 64-20-01 There have been incidents of failure of the plastic pitch change blocks in Hartzell HC-E2YL-2B and HC-C2YK-1 propellers which resulted in severe roughness or vibration in flight. 8/28/1964
Service Bulletins Effective
SB HC-SB-61-227 Rev. 4 An initial and recurring eddy current inspection of the propeller hub fillert radius and optional replacement of the hub as terminating action. 10/4/2005
SB HC-SB-61-269 Hub Inspection 4/18/2005
SB 136I Additional Overhaul and Inspection Procedures for Single and Double-Shoulder Blade Bores. 4/25/2003
SB HC-ASB-61-259 Hub Replacement 9/4/2002
SB HC-SB-61-118, Rev. F Rework Procedures for "Y" Shank Aluminum Propeller Blades. 8/15/2002
SB HC-SB-61-218 Compressive stress layer on certain Q-Tip blades. 2/19/1996
SB 97A Additional Overhaul Procedures for Certain Blade Designs. 3/1/1973
SB 86 Failure of A-2217 Pitch Change Block. 8/2/1963
Service Instructions Effective
SI 152A Replacement of Hub Bolts During Overhaul 12/7/1990
SI 107 Replacing slimserts installed in counterweighted blades that may have been inadvertently damaged and need replacement. 4/15/1976
SL HC-SL-61-252 Propeller - A-80-( ) Bolt Recall 11/3/2005
SL HC-SL-61-244 This Service Letter introduces a optional self-locking nut, P/N B-3599. 2/28/2005
SL HC-SL-61-212, Rev. 1 Introduction of Overhaul Kits 1/14/2005
SL HC-SL-61-189, Rev. 2 Service Tools, Consumable Materials, and Standard Practices, Application Guide, Blade Ovehaul, and Spinner Maintenance 9/15/2004
SL HC-SL-61-234 Boot Installation 9/15/2004
SL HC-SL-61-61, Rev. Y Overhaul Periods and Service Life Limits for Hartzell Propellers, Governors, and Propeller Damper Assemblies 4/1/2004
SL HC-SL-61-229 Introduction of New Propeller Labels 8/19/2003
SL HC-SL-61-187, Rev. 2 Alternate Lubrication Fitting 6/24/2003
SL HC-SL-61-217 Replacement of Hardware at Propeller Overhaul 3/21/2003
SL HC-SL-61-223 Hub/Fork Interference 8/30/2002
SL HC-SL-61-172, rev.1 New Fee for Parts Evaluation 3/15/2000
SL HC-SL-61-185 Tachometers 4/12/1999
SL HC-SL-61-177 Ball Bearings - New Part Number/Usage 2/4/1997
SL HC-SL-61-165 Abnormal Vibration or Grease Leakage 12/7/1995
SL 154 Identification of Springs as Used in Various Hartzell Propellers 5/13/1985
SL 69 Pitch Change Parts 11/30/1971
As of 11/10/2005
If you did not know you can get all the AD's off the FAA's web site:
FAA AD LOOK UP
Type in the AD number above and it brings up a summary and you can down load an Adobe document of the AD. You can get a free Adobe reader on line here. FREE ADOBE READER
George
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