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Say Altitude

Webb

Webb

Well Known Member
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Has anyone out there been notified by the FAA in letter form for busting their IFR altitude clearance?

I just finished reading an article in IFR magazine about pilots getting in trouble about this. Ironically, I had just come back in the soup from Florida and noticed that I heard about 7 or 8 times the controller ask pilots to "say altitude" which according to article was the "you're on notice to the FAA".

And no, I was not one of the guilty parties!!!!
 
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A lot of times you will here that when the controller is trying to confirm the altitude readout or altitude passing as the aircraft climbs or descends. Especially when transitioning from one sector to another. I just answer the questions. I have only heard of trouble when the controller asked the pilot to "say altitude" followed by "say altitude assigned":eek:
 
I agree

I agree with Vern.
I've been on VFR flight following when asked "say altitude" and I told him exactly what my altimeter was reading and he just confirmed we were both agreeing by saying something like, "thats what I show you at, etc.
and yes, I was where I was suposed to be :).

But I have heard other times when you can tell he is giving someone a "heads-up" that they may not be where they are suposed to be!

I love my TT altitude hold! :D
 
Webb said:
Has anyone out there been notified by the FAA in letter form for busting their IFR altitude clearance?

I just finished reading an article in IFR magazine about pilots getting in trouble about this. Ironically, I had just come back in the soup from Florida and noticed that I heard about 7 or 8 times the controller ask pilots to "say altitude" which according to article was the "you're on notice to the FAA".

And no, I was one of the guilty parties!!!!
Click to expand...

Say altitude is generally 3 categories from my experience.
1. a controller politely letting you know you have probably busted and for you to please correct.
2. A controller confirming, which is required if you did not tell him on initial contact.
3. A controller documenting you busted for him to report you.
 
Clarify

It should read I was NOT one of the guilty parties. Whoops...

Also, my gut tells me that it is usually a gentle nudge. Be professional and you will get the courtesy in return.

I agree with the 3 Kahuna gave.
 
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altitude busts

Most violations for altitude busts are for not making a crossing restriction or for going through your assigned altitude when climbing or decending. Often times the controller will confirm your altitude when he has merging targets as a way to cover his own rear end. They get hammered anytime there is a loss of seperation. If you wander off your altitude in level cruise they won't usually say anything until it exceeds 300 feet. You should try not to get off altitude in level cruise.

Chris Murphy
 
clarification

we have some foreign pilots on initial call climbing out of approach just saying their callsign...without any information... Now we have to validate his mode c so we can use the display on the scope for separation. we use "say altitude" generally for this purpose. Now that we have validated his mode c, we need to know what altitude he is climbing to, "verify assigned altitude". He should be climbing to the top of approaches airspace, unless he filed for a lower altitude, this is important as if the pilot says nothing, approach stops them for traffic and the pilot takes someone else's frequency change. This happens, so we try to gather as much information as possible to prevent a loss of separation. As far as the FAA turning people in, that usually only happens when there is a loss of separation and an investigation is required.
 
I think the the radar or transponder can be off 300 ft.....I'm not IFR ....But the last week during Flight Following I got the "say attitude" I was at 5500 ft alt.and Gps........ radar was showing me a 5800.............
 
Interesting

Here is a quote from the pilot/controller glossary:

SAY ALTITUDE- Used by ATC to ascertain an aircraft's specific altitude/flight level. When the aircraft is climbing or descending, the pilot should state the indicated altitude rounded to the nearest 100 feet.

I myself quit taking IFR magazine just because of things like this. I have been queried by ATC many times both IFR and on VFR-FF. It does not mean anything! I have heard it used on occasion as Kahuna said to gently remind someone to get on their assigned altitude. So unless ATC tells you to call a phone number there is no issue! They don't want to bust you any more than you want to be busted and from what I hear, most situations that end with the pilot calling a phone number don't result in a bust as long as the pilot is respectful and apologetic.;)
 
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Another gentle nudge to look at the altimeter comes on long cross-country legs where I have flight following and hear this, "RV 8PV, altimeter setting XXXX"

From what I understand from Howard Long (retired FAA LAX Center Controller) is that you need only once confirm your altitude with the first controller. This can come in the aircraft type/position/altitude (level/descending/climbing) radio call that follows the controller's, "Say request"

It is good radio technique when changing to a new frequency to start with, "XXX Center/Approach, RV 8PV, level/descending/climbing (to) XXXX..." along with any other heading/speed restrictions you may have received: "...restricted heading/speed XXX..." :D Rosie

PS: Please remove the calls "With You" and "Any other traffic in the area please advise" from your radio vocabulary.
 
Question

I've just started my instrument training and I have a question:

A few weeks ago I was on an IFR flight in VMC from Santa Monica to Fox Field in Lancaster. The winds were blowing and as I was crossing the mountains at the north end of the valley I was caught in some good down/up drafts. With full power (C182) I was still descending at 300fpm, once through the downdraft I was climbing at 500fpm with the power at idle.

While we were descending we got a "say altitude" call from the controller. I told him where we were and that we were descending in a down draft.

Here's the question: in this type of situation could you be in trouble for busting your altitude? What is the protocol? Do you inform the controller as soon as you realize you can't maintain altitude and then call him again when you're out of the downdraft?

Thanks for the help, I'm always learning.
 
What's the matter "with you"?

PS: Please remove the calls "With You"
Click to expand...

I use this phrase when making my initail call after being handed off. I would say something like "Experimental 123 with you at 5500".

What is the prefered phrasing? Thanks.
 
Ask for a Block Altitude

jtrusso said:
I've just started my instrument training and I have a question:

A few weeks ago I was on an IFR flight in VMC from Santa Monica to Fox Field in Lancaster. The winds were blowing and as I was crossing the mountains at the north end of the valley I was caught in some good down/up drafts. With full power (C182) I was still descending at 300fpm, once through the downdraft I was climbing at 500fpm with the power at idle.

While we were descending we got a "say altitude" call from the controller. I told him where we were and that we were descending in a down draft.

Here's the question: in this type of situation could you be in trouble for busting your altitude? What is the protocol? Do you inform the controller as soon as you realize you can't maintain altitude and then call him again when you're out of the downdraft?

Thanks for the help, I'm always learning.
Click to expand...

You can always ask for a "block altitude". If ATC assigns, then you have a range you can stay in. For example, you can say "experiencing mild turbulance and request block altitude from 3,500 to 4,500". If granted then you have +/- 500 feet either side of 4,000 feet.
 
McFly said:
I use this phrase when making my initail call after being handed off. I would say something like "Experimental 123 with you at 5500".

What is the prefered phrasing? Thanks.
Click to expand...

"Experimental 123, level five thousand five hundred".

"With you" doesn't indicate whether you are level, climbing or descending. The fact ATC heard you means he knows you are "with him". :)
 
McFly said:
I use this phrase when making my initail call after being handed off. I would say something like "Experimental 123 with you at 5500".

What is the prefered phrasing? Thanks.
Click to expand...

You are not "with" the controller, you're on the radio talking to him.

1st contact with the new controller, short and sweet is best.

Memphis Center, Experimental 123, level 5,500

That's all that is needed. I was taught, less is more and you get better handling by ATC.
 
I will call in with type, callsign and either "level XXX" or "climbing/decending through XXX for YYY". If I'm in the Class B, I often give a heading or last assigned destination. "Approach, Flight Design 621CT, level 2500, direct Love". This way he doesn't freak out when I overfly the SWA traffic into DAL in case they had a bad handoff.

As for speed restrictions, the only speed request I've gotten is to try and go faster :D

TODR
 
To JTRUSSO:
As soon as you realize you can't hold altitude (or heading), advise ATC. Tell them you're in a wave or that there's a cumulus in front that you don't want to penetrate. You next statement should be "What" you want. Do you want ATC to clear airspace all the way to the ground, do you want a heading change, or do you merely want a block cleared below you. Haven't run into a controller yet who doesn't know what a mountain wave is (particularly if their airspace is in the mountains) or what a towering cumulus is. Taking action early always gives you more options and lets ATC know that you are not intentionally violating clearances.
Terry, CFI
 
Rosie said:
Another gentle nudge to look at the altimeter comes on long cross-country legs where I have flight following and hear this, "RV 8PV, altimeter setting XXXX" ...
Click to expand...
Yeah, that is lot like when the departurer controller says to "reset transponder" after you takeoff. That is a nice way of saying "you forgot to turn on the transponder dummy."
 
terrykohler said:
To JTRUSSO:
As soon as you realize you can't hold altitude (or heading), advise ATC. Tell them you're in a wave or that there's a cumulus in front that you don't want to penetrate. You next statement should be "What" you want. Do you want ATC to clear airspace all the way to the ground, do you want a heading change, or do you merely want a block cleared below you. Haven't run into a controller yet who doesn't know what a mountain wave is (particularly if their airspace is in the mountains) or what a towering cumulus is. Taking action early always gives you more options and lets ATC know that you are not intentionally violating clearances.
Terry, CFI
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Good advice above...

Remember if you are having trouble, you need to communicate it. Always use the following format for all coms...

Who you are calling, Who you are, where you are at/what is wrong, and what you want to do:

"Jax Center, Experimental 123, experiencing strong updrafts, request (block alt, climb, descent etc)"

"Tower, Experimental 123, holding short 17 at 'Bravo', vfr to the north"



Other good coms advice is never say 'for'... it gets confused with 'four'... build good domestic habits that flow into international ones...

try saying, "Center, Experimental 123, leaving 5,000 climbing 8,000" instead of "Center, experimental 123, leaving 5,000 for 8,000" as some international controllers would get confused and think you are climbing 48,000.... yes I've seen it.... and if I recall correctly a jumbo jet was cleared "descend four four hundred feet" on an approach in the pacific and thought it was "for 400" and flew into the dirt in the 80's....

Though this is a rare problem in the US/Canada train now and you'll be ready when you are a 777 captain :)
 
Controllers

n5lp said:
Yeah, that is lot like when the departurer controller says to "reset transponder" after you takeoff. That is a nice way of saying "you forgot to turn on the transponder dummy."
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Just want to take this opportunity to give a quick thanks to all the controllers out there that have given me a gentle nudge to get my poop back into a pile. Much appreciated, ladies and gents!
 
rv8ch said:
Just want to take this opportunity to give a quick thanks to all the controllers out there that have given me a gentle nudge to get my poop back into a pile. Much appreciated, ladies and gents!
Click to expand...

I will join you there........... Thank You........ Mike N1066Y
 
Nudge

rv8ch said:
Just want to take this opportunity to give a quick thanks to all the controllers out there that have given me a gentle nudge to get my poop back into a pile. Much appreciated, ladies and gents!
Click to expand...

I too, will join in on this. But remember, this is a reciprocal deal. The next time a controller needs a nudge, be gentle.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
jtrusso said:
I've just started my instrument training and I have a question:

A few weeks ago I was on an IFR flight in VMC from Santa Monica to Fox Field in Lancaster. The winds were blowing and as I was crossing the mountains at the north end of the valley I was caught in some good down/up drafts. With full power (C182) I was still descending at 300fpm, once through the downdraft I was climbing at 500fpm with the power at idle.

While we were descending we got a "say altitude" call from the controller. I told him where we were and that we were descending in a down draft.

Here's the question: in this type of situation could you be in trouble for busting your altitude? What is the protocol? Do you inform the controller as soon as you realize you can't maintain altitude and then call him again when you're out of the downdraft?

Thanks for the help, I'm always learning.
Click to expand...


I had this exact situation happen to me in a 172 westbound into ABQ, crossing the ridge on the east side of ABQ. The mountain waves were humming, I was VFR-FF and seeing the same up/down scenario you described. I was cruising at 8500 and varying all over the place, I called center and told them "Unable to maintain 8500 due to mountain wave activity, request block altitude", they gave me 8,000 to 13,000 and requested I call them if busting either end. I put the airplane at Vy and left it there, riding the wave, and finally crossed the ridge at 10,300.
 
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