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Actual vs. Simulated

MSFT-1

Well Known Member
I have been flying for about 9 years and have about 1000 ASEL hours logged.

I have had my instrument ticket for the last two years.

My RV-10 with its GRT dual horizon Is and TruTrak Socerer autopilot makes flying in the clag mind-numbingly easy. I feel sheepish entering time in my logbook as actual just because I "controlled the airplane solely by reference to the flight instruments".

I am not sure what the guidance should be, but I think the "control the airplane solely by reference to the flight instruments" seems outdated because it is actually just as easy to fly in the crud now as it is on a nice VFR day (maybe even easier with the autopilot).

I am not sure what my point is on this post...I just know I flew home from Alabama a few days ago in the clouds for close to 3.5 hours and there is no way I will put in 3.5 hours of actual instrument flight in my logbook.

Thoughts?
 
You did it....

so why not log it. It does not matter that your terrific panel reduces pilot work load. Actual is actual. You can bet I would dang sure log it. Getting actual around here is almost impossible.
 
I've pretty much always had and IFR moving map GPS flying IFR, but hand flew for about 3 year without an autopilot IFR in and out of IMC. The moving map GPS made IFR easy but I just couldn't imagine hand flying in IMC with just needles. I consider myself spoiled now that I have a two axis autopilot and occasional, I do disengage it while IMC if only to prove to myself that I can still "keep the shiny side up." But then I quickly get bored and I reengage the autopilot.

Yes, log thetime since no one else there is solely controlling the aircraft, even if you are relegated to being a "systems manager."
 
Log it

Log It, Dano Wasn't that a TV show...

Aren't you obligated to log it as IFR since you were not in VFR flight conditions. If your weren't VFR and you don't want to log it as IFR, what would you log your flight time as, simulator or hood time?

Log it as IFR actual and reap the benefits that flight in experimental aircraft/aviation has to offer versus IFR in a Spam Can.
 
I have been flying for about 9 years and have about 1000 ASEL hours logged.

I have had my instrument ticket for the last two years.

My RV-10 with its GRT dual horizon Is and TruTrak Socerer autopilot makes flying in the clag mind-numbingly easy. I feel sheepish entering time in my logbook as actual just because I "controlled the airplane solely by reference to the flight instruments".

I am not sure what the guidance should be, but I think the "control the airplane solely by reference to the flight instruments" seems outdated because it is actually just as easy to fly in the crud now as it is on a nice VFR day (maybe even easier with the autopilot).

I am not sure what my point is on this post...I just know I flew home from Alabama a few days ago in the clouds for close to 3.5 hours and there is no way I will put in 3.5 hours of actual instrument flight in my logbook.

Thoughts?
You can get rusty using the automation. So practice and turn the magic off from time to time, especially in actual. If you are not comfortable than practice some more. What if the magic stops? How many autopilots do you have? One? The Boeing I fly has THREE! Some times all three autopilots are working at the same time, to back each other up. Never the less if I don't hand fly every so often the simulator recurrent or checks would not be pretty. Practice.

Also for those flying with their autopilot close to the ground, engaging right after takeoff or right above touchdown are playing with FIRE. Even the best autopilots can go hard over. Most certified auto pilots have a min altitude for engagement (400 feet) and min altitude for disengagement (50 feet). These numbers are for the state of the art airliner stuff with redundant backup. To AUTO-land with a large plane with autopilot only, takes extra extra maintence and crew training. Other wise the autopilot is off at 50 feet. There are NO auto takeoffs on any plane I know of. Boeing autopilot engagement is 400 feet. Usually I'll engage at a 1000 feet (or 10,000 feet if I need practice). On approach I'll leave the autopilot on all the way to mins or hand fly the entire initial, intermediate and final approach (if I need practice). It is a great tool and use it when I need to, but some times you have to hand fly.

Yes LOG it but there is a big diff in currency, competency and log books.
 
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Log It, Dano Wasn't that a TV show...

Aren't you obligated to log it as IFR since you were not in VFR flight conditions. If your weren't VFR and you don't want to log it as IFR, what would you log your flight time as, simulator or hood time?

Log it as IFR actual and reap the benefits that flight in experimental aircraft/aviation has to offer versus IFR in a Spam Can.

There is no such thing as "logging IFR" or VFR per se. IFR and VFR pertain to the flight rules by which you operate under. IMC and VMC pertain to the weather conditions the flight is flown through.

Log requirements is concerned with "flight conditions." You can be flying under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) and your entire flight could be in VMC or IMC. If VMC, your flight time is the same as a VFR flight, if IMC then you log the time in IMC as "actual" Instrument Meteorological Conditions.

Maybe it's from operating in the North East where and IFR flight can go from VMC to IMC---even if you planned around it--due to the vagaries of ATC. This is one of the reasons I have a problem with the term "Light IFR."
 
NO, there is just IFR and VFR

IFR is a type of flight plan. IMC is a weather condition.
No, IFR is a set of rules you fly by, not a "type of flight plan."

Is there not a BIG difference between IFR in IMC and IFR on a CAVU day?

Of course there is.
I don't think anyone said that there was no difference between IFR in IMC and IFR in VMC. As a matter of fact, the point is made that these have to be logged differently.

So, there are two distinctly different types of IFR flying.

Light IFR is flying an IFR flight plan in VMC. Pilots choose to do that all the time.
NO there is not! There is just VFR and IFR--ONE IFR! The rules for Instrument Flight accomodate both IMC and VMC so there is only one set of rules. Can you cite me the term "light IFR" in any FAA publication or regulation?
 
Light vs Hardball

Can you cite me the term "light IFR" in any FAA publication or regulation?

No, I can't and you are right, the term does not exist in the regs. However I think that the term is valid when one is discussing equipment. Today I flew some "light IFR" when departing KSBA through a marine layer. Spent a good 15 seconds IMC. No convective weather, no ice, and a way out above and below. An RV with capable avionics is really only good for, here we go again, "light IFR." For "hard IFR" or "hardball IFR" as we called it in the airline business, anti ice, deice, weather radar, and in my opinion at least two engines that run on Jet-A, are required. It is really all about judgement.


John Clark ATP, CFI
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Perspective....

An observation....

These "Lite IFR" debates come up from time to time, and in watching them over the years, I generally find that the folks who are against the term are very experienced airline pilots. Their experience is (needs to be) respected, but it also needs to be taken in context. Airline pilots go to the airport KNOWING that they have to get from point A to point B as part of the day's work (yes, there are times you get to exercise good judgment and simply say "no way", but in general, the question is not "am I going to get there?", but "how am I going to get there?") - and that means in whatever weather they find. And boy, it can get UGLY! I wouldn't want to fly in half the weather they have had to experience over their careers. Kudos! From this comes a healthy respect and a bit of fatigue over flying in weather. Having seen how bad it can be, it is easy to say "you guys don't know how bad it can get! And you want to be up there in a single engine plane with no de-icing and.....etc." Fair enough - good comments for that kind of flying.

But....GA pilots have it a bit different. We don't HAVE to be there - or HAVE to be flying. We decide "Nah....not going today" if it looks bad. You can set your minimums higher - say 1,000' and 3 miles for destination weather. And then, of course, you have to have the knowledge to KNOW that it isn't going to get worse and the DISCIPLINE not to talk yourself into believing a forecast that is better than it is. You have to understand how weather can change, and the quirks in a particular area.

Lite IFR? Yes, I believe it exists. You take off with a coastal marine layer and a destination that is 300 miles away in the desert and CAVU. You punch through a layer at 1,000' and come out sunny on top at 3,000, enjoy the sunny day and shoot a visual approach at the other end, or a GPS approach where you break out at 1500'. It DOES NOT include launching into weather that is deteriorating, or building convective activity. It does not include flying into areas where the temp/dew point spread is two degrees and night is falling. And it does NOT include flying into clouds in freezing conditions. It involves judgment.

Smart pilots do not get "ambushed" by bad weather. They don't expect to break out at 1,000' on an ILS, and get surprised to still be in the clouds at Decision Height. Come on folks, information is out there - you use it, and divert early. You carry enough fuel for every contingency, and have an ironclad alternate in your pocket. And you set minimums that are applicable to your skill level and airplane equipment.

In short, Lite IFR does exist if you use discipline. All the guys with tens of thousands of hours have flown in it. But they are worried about inexperienced pilots stumbling into conditions lower than they expect or are ready for, and that is a good thing to be worried about. I frequently tell new instrument pilots, or folks just working on their ratings, that they should be prepared to cancel as many trips after they get the rating as they did before if they are flying a typical GA single. but there are days when the rating will be useful to get them out of poor weather and fly to good.

It just takes discipline.

All my opinion, of course, and I am not picking on the high time guys at all. I am simply saying that perspectives are developed based on our backgrounds. And different viewpoints do exist. I have never flown for the airlines (and have the utmost respect for the guys that do) - I grew up in GA, trained into flight test and operations, and have seen equipment improve by leaps and bounds. A true student of aviation will find a lot of safe opportunities to use an instrument ticket....and recognize the times when it is silly to do so.

Paul
 
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