Van's Air Force
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Status of aviation APRS unit
- Thread starter Ron Lee
- Start date
Tracker Transceiver
Ron,
I do plan on making an Aviation version based on a programmable transmit-only device with a remote control panel, high power, on-board voltage regulation, and other good stuff. I hope to have our transceiver- based device, the Micro-Trak TT4, out in mid-October, although I had not planned to call it an aviation version per se. It will have the features you requested, since it is based on the TT4, but will have a 1/2 Watt transceiver. I may produce an amplifier for it, or just make a commercial amp available for it through Byonics. Since the TT4 based unit will Track and Digipeat, it will be a very cool thing for airborne ops!
Allen
VHS
Ron,
I do plan on making an Aviation version based on a programmable transmit-only device with a remote control panel, high power, on-board voltage regulation, and other good stuff. I hope to have our transceiver- based device, the Micro-Trak TT4, out in mid-October, although I had not planned to call it an aviation version per se. It will have the features you requested, since it is based on the TT4, but will have a 1/2 Watt transceiver. I may produce an amplifier for it, or just make a commercial amp available for it through Byonics. Since the TT4 based unit will Track and Digipeat, it will be a very cool thing for airborne ops!
Allen
VHS
Update?
Allen
Any more updated info?
I am tempted by your special Microtrak 300 production run, but if your new TT4 aviation model is just around the corner.......
Allen
Any more updated info?
I am tempted by your special Microtrak 300 production run, but if your new TT4 aviation model is just around the corner.......
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
Tempted, I like that word.
I totally agree that if a unit designed for aviation use is on the horizon, I would be very interested it it.
Allen, please understand that as aviation folks we see, and want the features of tracking/location that this technology offers. But not all of us "plane guys/gals" are "radio guys/gals". Some of us want/need simple stuff
An all in one, "plug and play" unit for aircraft should fit the bill for most of us.
Thanks for all your help/input. It is really appreciated that you are willing to share your knowledge.
Micro-Trak 300 vs MT-TT4
The Micro-Trak TT4 (MT-TT4) is close to being released, but to say its just around the corner would be an overstatement. Here are photos of the prototype ( I don't know how to post them here, sorry)
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/MicroTrak/photos/browse/7578
What spurred me to reintroduce the MT-300 was the number of people looking for a very low cost system, and one that was suitable for very low-mass applications, like meteorological balloons, RC vehicles, etc.
While I don't have pricing info yet, the Micro-Trak TT4 will be significantly more expensive than the MT-300, and will require even more user-technology savvy than the MT-300.
What I have been looking for in an aviation unit is a an enclosed pre-packaged and possibly pre-programmed, transmitter-only tracker. Technically, something along the lines of our MT-AIO, but with a remote GPS, and ability to run from an aircraft power bus without adding additional widgets. This so far mythical transmitter will be able to run as a stand-alone plug and play unit by plugging in a gps, an antenna, and power, and will optionally have the ability to have a remote panel to switch configurations, view status LED's, force send a beacon, etc.
There are so many contradictory features of the optimal airborne tracker, that I have decided that I will do a minimalistic unit, and a TT4-based device, to fill both gaps.
Allen
VHS
The Micro-Trak TT4 (MT-TT4) is close to being released, but to say its just around the corner would be an overstatement. Here are photos of the prototype ( I don't know how to post them here, sorry)
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/MicroTrak/photos/browse/7578
What spurred me to reintroduce the MT-300 was the number of people looking for a very low cost system, and one that was suitable for very low-mass applications, like meteorological balloons, RC vehicles, etc.
While I don't have pricing info yet, the Micro-Trak TT4 will be significantly more expensive than the MT-300, and will require even more user-technology savvy than the MT-300.
What I have been looking for in an aviation unit is a an enclosed pre-packaged and possibly pre-programmed, transmitter-only tracker. Technically, something along the lines of our MT-AIO, but with a remote GPS, and ability to run from an aircraft power bus without adding additional widgets. This so far mythical transmitter will be able to run as a stand-alone plug and play unit by plugging in a gps, an antenna, and power, and will optionally have the ability to have a remote panel to switch configurations, view status LED's, force send a beacon, etc.
There are so many contradictory features of the optimal airborne tracker, that I have decided that I will do a minimalistic unit, and a TT4-based device, to fill both gaps.
Allen
VHS
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
Allen, two thoughts:
1) In my opinion, having a very low-cost tracker is one of the appeals of APRS. If the cost of installation and service is insignificant compared to the benefits received, financial objections to going with APRS are pretty much eliminated.
2) What you are describing in the aviation tracker, with the exception of the remote panel (more than likely not a must-have for most pilots), is simply an MT-8000 with on-board Micro-Volt regulated power.
Make it happen.
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Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
Allen, two thoughts:
1) In my opinion, having a very low-cost tracker is one of the appeals of APRS. If the cost of installation and service is insignificant compared to the benefits received, financial objections to going with APRS are pretty much eliminated.
2) What you are describing in the aviation tracker, with the exception of the remote panel (more than likely not a must-have for most pilots), is simply an MT-8000 with on-board Micro-Volt regulated power.
Make it happen.
I think I agree with Sam, at least #1 for sure.
As to #2, it appears that the MT-8000 needs a GPS signal.
For me, the "GeeWhizThisisit" unit would need to be hooked to aircraft power, and that is the end of it. Possibly a separate antenna hookup.
I am looking for something I can put into the wing tip, and forget about.
Basically, the AIO unit, minus case and internal batteries------at least that is what it would appear to my poor old non technical brain.
Sam, thanks for the airplane>>electrical tech, and back translations you provide.
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
So does the "aviation tracker" described above. But a separate GPS receiver is a good thing since it allows us to place it where it can see the sky. A true "all-in-one" would be useless in my plane since the tracker is tucked up under the panel.
I see the biggest market for a self-contained aviation tracker in the certificated aircraft arena where regs make it very difficult to install a tracker. In the experimental community we are expected to customize our babies with all sorts of goodies.
Any of the present trackers can be installed in a wingtip with no further attention needed. The little GPS receiver goes in the tip along with the tracker and antenna. That is how a large percentage of trackers presently in RV's are installed:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=198200&postcount=1
Market a simple (low $$$$'s) five to eight-watt tracker that can be fed directly from aircraft bus voltage and we will be happy.
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Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
Allen, for a person who has built an entire airplane, coming up with an enclosure for a tracker is not a major task.
We probably have enough cast-off assorted cans, plastic boxes, tubes, etc, in the shop to be able to find a home for the tracker.The shipping tube you provided worked great for my MT-300 and MT-8000. Something really simple is adequate, and could either be included or purchased from a local source (Walmart...Radio Shack...Lowes....how 'bout a piece of PVC pipe with end caps?? We're talkin' waterproof, Baby!).
As an example, I just received a pair of eyeglasses from Zenni Optical and guess what they came in.......a Micro-Trak case!
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Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
Thanks a bunch, Allen. Without your neat little devices, and willingness to tailor them to our market, more than likely few of us would have been exposed to APRS.
We look forward to seeing what emerges from the VHS skunkworks.
Me too
Allen, Sam said it all.
Thanks a heap.
Allen,
As a user of the 300mW MicroTrak, I just can't ask for much more. It plugs directly into my plane for power, connects with my GPS, and allows me to mount an antenna remotely. Even has an SMA connector that I was able to use RG-400 to make a small cable to reach the externally mounted antenna. Performance has been spectacular, with very few dropped position reports. The only one where I had any significant misses was a recent flight where I spent a few miles at 500-800' AGL. I fail to understand how going to 8W is as "friendly" to the other Ham public, going by the "only as much power as necessary" rule. Also, the packaging tube that the board came it was the perfect installation case. I even wrapped it in aluminum tape as shielding and grounded it.
So really, if I had to choose exactly what I wanted out of a product, I'd probably say.... Give me the same thing as the MT300, but maybe up the power to 1W or something. Not a big increase in transmit range, I know...so even if it were the same 300mw, it's not a big disappointment. If I were buying one for my car (which I may), then I'd get an 8W unit...but you just don't really need it in the plane.
Thanks for your contributions to our ease in tracking using such a cool method.
Tim
As a user of the 300mW MicroTrak, I just can't ask for much more. It plugs directly into my plane for power, connects with my GPS, and allows me to mount an antenna remotely. Even has an SMA connector that I was able to use RG-400 to make a small cable to reach the externally mounted antenna. Performance has been spectacular, with very few dropped position reports. The only one where I had any significant misses was a recent flight where I spent a few miles at 500-800' AGL. I fail to understand how going to 8W is as "friendly" to the other Ham public, going by the "only as much power as necessary" rule. Also, the packaging tube that the board came it was the perfect installation case. I even wrapped it in aluminum tape as shielding and grounded it.
So really, if I had to choose exactly what I wanted out of a product, I'd probably say.... Give me the same thing as the MT300, but maybe up the power to 1W or something. Not a big increase in transmit range, I know...so even if it were the same 300mw, it's not a big disappointment. If I were buying one for my car (which I may), then I'd get an 8W unit...but you just don't really need it in the plane.
Thanks for your contributions to our ease in tracking using such a cool method.
Tim
EastTXHills
I'm New Here
As an amateur radio guy myself I'm taken aback by this statement. APRS, like our RVs, is in the amateur category, and requires some knowledge and interest in amateur radio. To simply want to buy a unit with little or no understanding of how it works sounds like wanting an experimental aircraft without knowing how it was built.
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
Judd, sorry if you didnt appreciate my statement.
Simply put, I am just not interested in how the unit works, I just want it to work.
As a "radio guy", I'll bet you know how an ELT works, electronically speaking. And I'll bet pretty much of the pilots out there who are not radio guys, dont. All they want is something that will increase their chances of getting rescued when/if they have a problem.
I see the APRS as an alternate/adjunct to the ELT, or PLB, and that probably taints my attitude a bit. It is only a tool to me, not an interest.
I am an "engine guy" if you will. But I dont get "taken aback" if folks dont know how an engine works, when all they are interested in is that it works like it is supposed to.
Some folks built experimental airplanes, and are as interested in the process, as in the finished aircraft. Others buy them flying, and are only interested in what the finished product can do for them.
Hope this makes sense to you.
Allright you guys are killing me. I guess I will have to be a patient "grasshopper" and wait to see what you come out with.
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
I've already confessed that I'm not ready to get into amateur radio. I'm sure it would be an interesting hobby, but I'm into too many different things already!
So...............I'm using SPOT as an alternative. Not quite as good as APRS, since it transmits at 10minute intervals; but it's been working well.
L.Adamson
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
Allright you guys are killing me. I guess I will have to be a patient "grasshopper" and wait to see what you come out with.
Wade, if you really want to have APRS now, there is no need to wait. Buy a Micro-Trak 300 or 8000FA and get in the action. These devices will do everything you need for great tracking as demonstrated by many RVers who have already joined the APRS community.
The biggest job is the initial installation, it is very easy to change out a tracker later if you must have the latest and greatest. But the simple trackers we have been discussing on this thread don't add more functions to what is available now, just a little convenience in packaging. This is sorta like buying avionics for your panel--if you wait for the "best" gadget...you'll never buy anything!
Boxcars
Member
Then, as another post said, you should look at the SPOT unit. That's the appropriate device for those who don't wish to learn anything. Hope this makes sense to you.
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
Interesting reply.
Even though I am an early and enthusiastic APRS adopter, I still don't have a clue as to how the components on the PC board work, or how the individual lines of software code make the device drop those red BB's onto the internet. I am neither an EE or software engineer.
Does this mean I have yet to "learn anything"? At what point do I become "learned" about APRS?
If someone has passed the Tech exam, they have an elementary knowledge of basic radio operation and regs (yeah, I know...old-time hams would really disagree with that statement...). I welcome anyone to APRS who recognizes its value, enjoys the service, and has the license regardless of how deep their technical knowledge.
The first time APRS helps save someone's bacon, the last question to be asked will be concerning their knowledge of the technical aspects of the service.
There is the possibility I am reading too much into the quote above, that what the original poster intended was merely to steer someone to SPOT if they don't want to do anything but toss the device on the glareshield and push a button. Just wanted to make sure we don't discourage anyone from giving APRS a shot even if they don't consider themselves to have a high geek-quotient.
Wade, if you really want to have APRS now, there is no need to wait. Buy a Micro-Trak 300 or 8000FA and get in the action. These devices will do everything you need for great tracking as demonstrated by many RVers who have already joined the APRS community.
This is sorta like buying avionics for your panel--if you wait for the "best" gadget...you'll never buy anything!
Sam
I understand and agree with your sentiment. My post was meant to be toungue in cheek, I will have to work on my typing humor.
I like the $ of the 300, but also like the options of the dedicated one Allen is talking about. I only want to purchase one and have a little time to wait as I am running wires right now. I already have my FCC GRTO so the only thing I need to do is decide on which one. Oh, then there is which antenna, where is the best place to put it?
Just kidding.May I also add a big thanks to you Sam and Pete for blazing the trail and the bountiful information supplied on this great resource. I would have never known about it and now I can integrate my Grandfathers (Ham expert) favorite passion with mine.
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Ron Lee
Well Known Member
To state that more than 300 mW is not needed for aviation applications may not be correct. We have documented flights where in the rugged west no data packets were received for 15-20 minutes or so. 20 minutes is 60 miles or so and defeats the intended purpose as an aid to SAR should it be needed.
Whether 1 watt or two is the right answer I don't know. I just want the ability to crank it up a bit to improve the reception where I fly. The transceiver function will aid in finding APRS equipped pilots joining from different spots and actually may have some SAR usefulness.
So I am waiting.
Whether 1 watt or two is the right answer I don't know. I just want the ability to crank it up a bit to improve the reception where I fly. The transceiver function will aid in finding APRS equipped pilots joining from different spots and actually may have some SAR usefulness.
So I am waiting.
Ron, I have been working on our MT-TT4 transceiver. It will be released with a high power amp (8-10 Watts) already built in. Byon is working on adding text-based range and bearing to target for the LCD display. Of course, you can just plug it into your display GPS. Using an LCD display and a PC keyboard will allow you to (eventually) program the unit without a PC, send and receive E-Mail, and anything esle we can figure out to do with it.
Allen
VHS
Allen
VHS
I don't know about everybody else, but part of the beauty of my (normal) APRS install is that I never think about it at all except for when back at home or at my destination when others say how cool it was to follow my flight. It is truly a zero-touch piece of technology. Beautiful simplicity. I think my airplane is just about maxed out for the fun factor of electronic toys and still be truly fun. How about that for a bold statement .
.
petehowell
Well Known Member
Aviation Unit
Actually, the MT-TT4 is not the same as the aviation unit, although it could certainly be used that way. The aviation version is on my list of things to do and will basically be an All-In-One "black box" that can run on 12-30 volts. Transmitter only. Not alot of fluff, just a good solid tracker. The MT-TT4 has been keeping me busy lately, so I apologize for not getting onto the marine/aviation version.
Allen
VHS
Actually, the MT-TT4 is not the same as the aviation unit, although it could certainly be used that way. The aviation version is on my list of things to do and will basically be an All-In-One "black box" that can run on 12-30 volts. Transmitter only. Not alot of fluff, just a good solid tracker. The MT-TT4 has been keeping me busy lately, so I apologize for not getting onto the marine/aviation version.
Allen
VHS
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
That would be interesting, are you thinking of using that feature for collision avoidance??
MT-TT4
Ron,
The MT-TT4 should be shipping next week. Its not quite as user friendly as the MT-AIO ( you have to program it at the command line) but it can do both the LCD display and upload waypoints to your (compatible) display GPS receiver. I know you wanted a mega power but the first gen MT-TT4 is going to be a 1/2 Watt unit. I could not exorcise all the RF demons from the higher power prototype. If I could figure out how to upload photos to this site, I would post them....
Allen
VHS
Ron,
The MT-TT4 should be shipping next week. Its not quite as user friendly as the MT-AIO ( you have to program it at the command line) but it can do both the LCD display and upload waypoints to your (compatible) display GPS receiver. I know you wanted a mega power but the first gen MT-TT4 is going to be a 1/2 Watt unit. I could not exorcise all the RF demons from the higher power prototype. If I could figure out how to upload photos to this site, I would post them....
Allen
VHS
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
petehowell
Well Known Member
Booya!
That's what I'm talkin' about! Where does the keyboard plug in?
Never mind, I think i see now.....
Since it is an airborne digi and can plot bandit locations - can we put an APRS/AWACS sticker on our planes???
That's what I'm talkin' about! Where does the keyboard plug in?
Never mind, I think i see now.....
Since it is an airborne digi and can plot bandit locations - can we put an APRS/AWACS sticker on our planes???
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Ron Lee
Well Known Member
Thanks Sam. Two questions:
1) Does "M" stand for meter or mile?
2) Is the 71 Degree a bearing from the flight path of this unit or absolute (relative to true north) relative to differences in lat/long? Example, I am due south of the bogey and we are both traveling west. The unit will display zero/360 degrees or 90 degrees (My guess is zero).
Mike, it is for finding other APRS aircraft inflight
1) Does "M" stand for meter or mile?
2) Is the 71 Degree a bearing from the flight path of this unit or absolute (relative to true north) relative to differences in lat/long? Example, I am due south of the bogey and we are both traveling west. The unit will display zero/360 degrees or 90 degrees (My guess is zero).
Mike, it is for finding other APRS aircraft inflight
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