Practicing slow flight for OSH may not be enough! Practice at GWT and AFT CG?

About this time of year, the articles start appearing about losing airplanes in the pattern at OSH. Most recommend practicing slow flight. I could not agree more, but practice with the airplane loaded as you would arrive at OSH.

Practice your slow flight at GWT and AFT CG if that is the way you are going to be loaded. The last time I was at GWT and AFT CG was during my test period several years ago and my loaded ?9A is a different flying airplane from the way I normally fly.

We often fly lightly loaded and with the CG in a mid-range or forward. We get comfortable with the stick forces, trim changes and power settings. When arriving at OSH you may be near GWT and more importantly near the AFT CG. Your stall speed is going to be greater, for example 8 mph, and the stick forces are distinctly lighter. My 1.3 Vs jumps from about 70 to 80 mph. The speed will decay much faster than normal, it takes less pull on the stick to get you a lot closer to stall AOA - then add the rest...... tighter turn, distractions, slowing for the guy in front, no stall warning.....

Best way to practice? Perhaps just the way you are loaded on your way to OSH. Stop for fuel; make a couple of landings just after you refuel, somewhere other than OSH. No need to go crazy to scare the pax but there is also no need to rediscover your GWT, AFT CG handling qualities when you hit the OSH pattern. Determine your minimum speed and maximum bank angle for your condition and do not waiver.

Regards, John.

Last year I got stuck behind a C-140 at Ripon which was only flying about 70 knots. There were 3-4 airplanes behind him, mine being the first doing s-turns sometimes on the edge of stall. Every time I made an s-turn I could see the guys behind me doing the same thing. Agonizing and stressful. Then the C-140 disregarded the tower instructions and was told to go around.

This year I'm going in at 2300 and 135 knots. With as many RV's flying in I think its just the wise thing to do.

rocketbob said:

snip...This year I'm going in at 2300 and 135 knots. With as many RV's flying in I think its just the wise thing to do.

Click to expand...

Same here, Bob. I got behind an Ercoupe two years ago and experienced same scenario as you. Planning an early evening arrival also...

b,
d

NOTE: I have not read the NOTAM this year so maybe they have changed this.


Last year, we went in as a flight of 3 Lancair Legacys. I didn't have much time in the one I was flying and there simply was NO way I was going to go in at anything slower than 120kts.

There are 2 approach routes that are published (actually there are 3, but we don't qualify for the the 3rd one).

There is a low altitude *slow* approach route from Ripon, and there is a Higher altitude *faster* approach route. Neither are considered the 3rd approach route - the high performance one.

So, stay at the higher altitude and use the higher speeds. That's what we did an had no problem whatsoever... *and* we were all bottled up in the post mass arrival gaggle that was coming in on Sat afternoon, the weekend prior to OSH opening.

The ground controllers were very cognizant of the higher, faster approach route and were very accommodating.

I don't read or hear much about people using this route, but for the last 2 years at least it's been published. It's design is to keep those of us that are 100-120kts approach speed away from those that are 60-70. The FAA designed it, publishes is, so why not use it.

Just my .02, but there is really no sense in forcing yourself to be at the back edge of the performance envelope - heavy and slow.

I'll never go in any other way from here on...

I know a couple of years ago, people were using the "high performance" published route (it's similar to the warbird arrival I believe). I know a bunch of people who got chewed out on the ground afterwards, but this higher altitude, faster approach is something entirely different, it's from RIPON in and it worked great.

135 kt pattern

Alan (and others)

You have an idea there with the higher, 135 kt pattern, and this might be a good idea for airplanes like the Legacy. RVs can certainly try to use it to...

but...

...I have heard, in past years, controllers scold airplanes (like RVs) coming in on the higher pattern and order them to get down to 1800 feet and 90 kts. You might get away with it, but be prepared to fly the lower pattern if you have to. I would practice your 90 kt flying even if you are planning to use the higher pattern.

If you want to come in at a less busy time, what day/time should one shoot for? I'm planning on Sunday and was thinking of just taking my time and trying for the evening.

Sunday before about 9AM is pretty quiet. It then becomes an absolute zoo until about 6-7PM, when it slows down a little. Early mornings and late evenings are a great time to arrive.

Of course, this is all very wx dependant, but Sunday is always the busiest day for arrivals.

When flying around at 70-90kts for extended periods my oil temps usually go up to 220+. A Ripon controller might not care about that but certainly I do..

It would be nice if the caliber of pilots going in was consistently good but it isn't. One time I was listening to tower on a handheld and I actually heard someone call in 10mi. south inbound. It was like they had no idea there was a NOTAM or an airshow. You'd pretty much would have to be living under a rock not to know.

sprucemoose said:

Alan (and others)

You have an idea there with the higher, 135 kt pattern, and this might be a good idea for airplanes like the Legacy. RVs can certainly try to use it to...

but...

...I have heard, in past years, controllers scold airplanes (like RVs) coming in on the higher pattern and order them to get down to 1800 feet and 90 kts. You might get away with it, but be prepared to fly the lower pattern if you have to. I would practice your 90 kt flying even if you are planning to use the higher pattern.

Click to expand...

I've heard the same stories... but I wonder... It used to be that there was a "high performance" arrival. And then there was the standard arrival.

2 years ago after a bunch of people complained, they created what I believe to be an intermediate. That being the standard RIPON, FISK arrival, but with 2 altitudes, one for slow, one for *faster*. There is still the "High performance" arrival as a third.

Can't really vouch for any of the scolding, tho, I used the higher altitude, never got told to come down, landed, and was never scolded. And it was *busy* and I would have gotten stuck behind a cub... That would have been sheer terror, trying to not over run him, and not stall/spin The stall speed in the Lancair I was flying is 62kts dirty, and cubs with wind go slower than that

Best to all and be safe, good advice all around!

Chiming In With Previous Thread

Just a reminder of what has already been said, some of it worthwhile.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=19946

Transmissions are sometime times appropriate!

aadamson said:

I've heard the same stories... but I wonder... It used to be that there was a "high performance" arrival. And then there was the standard arrival.

2 years ago after a bunch of people complained, they created what I believe to be an intermediate. That being the standard RIPON, FISK arrival, but with 2 altitudes, one for slow, one for *faster*. There is still the "High performance" arrival as a third.

Click to expand...

It's been around a lot longer than 2 years. It existed in 1993 (first year I flew in) and has been in place every year since. I don't know what year it started.

I have flown into OSH many times so I am familiar with the arrival process. I even have some horror stories of my own.
IMHO if a pilot is following another airplane that is severely under speed (70 knots is ridicules if you are supposed to be flying 90) this is a situation that allows for use of your radio. Wait for a break and then as quickly and expediently as possible (don't tell a long story) tell Fisk arrival your location (miles from Fisk), that you are following a (fill in the blank), and that he is flying only 70 knots, traffic is pilling up behind you, with everyone "S" turning and that it is becoming a safety issue. If your transmission is preplanned, this can all be said in less than 10 seconds. I have heard necessary transmissions like this done many times with out chastisement. It is only when you make calls that would not be necessary if you just followed the procedures that are likely to get an unhappy response from the controllers.

I have seen the controllers bend over backwards to sort out problems.
I was once even being told to fly another circuit around Rush lake for being too close behind two Cessnas that had cut me off. I had already been holding, circling the lake for a while. The arrival had been closed for 20 minutes but low and behold, as soon as they said the arrival was reopened these two Cessna's show up flying fast right down the tracks only about a mile outside of Fisk. I had to maneuver to get behind them just as they pulled back the power and dropped some flaps to slow down (they over did it and slowed well below 90 knts). I couldn't help but pull up close behind (I was in an RV-9A and was doing everything I could to slow down). Because I was close behind them I was told to go around again. A five second transmission got the story a crossed. The controller chewed them out (not likely they cared much, they knew no one would be able to come looking for them) and got me right back in sink with a question of (can you give me an immediate/tight 360 degree turn?) I answered with an immediate roll into a left turn. Now this only worked because the controller had a view of the entire traffic environment and could see that no one was yet in view coming up behind me. Much of the time it would not be possible. I am mentioning it here to show that the controllers are controlling/working the traffic at Fisk, not just watching it go by.

rocketbob said:

Last year I got stuck behind a C-140 at Ripon which was only flying about 70 knots. There were 3-4 airplanes behind him, mine being the first doing s-turns sometimes on the edge of stall. Every time I made an s-turn I could see the guys behind me doing the same thing. Agonizing and stressful. .

Click to expand...

Don't let another pilot's failure to follow the NOTAM put you in danger. If you get into a bad situation, turn out of the arrival stream or out of the holding pattern and re-enter the process. Better to arrive 10 minutes later than to put yourself at risk.

I learned this the hard way at SnF one year and have promised myself that I'll never accept a bad (and possibly deteriorating) situation just to get to a fly-in.

Kyle is right - per NOTAM

Kyle Boatright said:

Don't let another pilot's failure to follow the NOTAM put you in danger. If you get into a bad situation, turn out of the arrival stream or out of the holding pattern and re-enter the process. Better to arrive 10 minutes later than to put yourself at risk.

I learned this the hard way at SnF one year and have promised myself that I'll never accept a bad (and possibly deteriorating) situation just to get to a fly-in.

Click to expand...

The NOTAM is clear - if you have to make S turns, re-enter and don't make S turns.

Last year I arrived over Ripon at about 7:30 Am on Tuesday and had the place to myself. Didn't see another airplane until I was on final for 18R. I don't *think* I was flying along dumb and happy!

That being said, what is the proper procedure for arriving at Ripon during busy times? I have not seen this addressed in the NOTAM. Is it a left hand pattern around the city until your turn at the railroad tracks? The same pattern as the holds around Rush and Green Lakes? All the NOTAM says is to head for Ripon and then follow the railroad tracks to Fisk. That works fine when they sort out any hold around Green Lake, but it seems to me it makes for a bit of a free-for-all with airplanes coming from all or several of the suggested approaches to Ripon. Granted the approaches are at different altitudes, but by the time you hit the railroad tracks, everyone (down low) is to be at 1800ft.

hevansrv7a said:

The NOTAM is clear - if you have to make S turns, re-enter and don't make S turns.

Click to expand...

It's also is clear that everyone is supposed to maintain 90 kts.
I agree, if you show up needing to S turn because you are not able to fly as slow as 90 kts then you shouldn't be there. You should be in the higher (and higher speed) arrival pattern
If you are S turning because someone is flying well under 90 kts then they are the ones that the controllers should be directing out of the arrival pattern.

Well not to feed the flames but..... the NOTAM is pretty clear if you are needing to s turn leave the approach and re enter at Ripon. This will be my first year flying into OSH and I plan on the 1800' and 90kt approach, my reason for not using the higher approach is because in effect if a RV who flies final at 70kt is in the high speed lane aren't we doing to the same thing to the fast glass and twin crowd that the cub does to us?
I mean I don't want to be on final and still be at 100kts and then be told to put it on the numbers, I am sure I will be busy enough I don't want to add the pressure of needing to slow fast and and spot land the plane.
I have been practicing quite a bit and feel confident I can safely fly my 8 around at 65kts if I have too.
Again I am just a putz but those are my thoughts

Safety

I have flown to OSH 3 times in t-18 took the high route each time worked great twice the third the guy in front of me did a unannounce 360 because he thought a warbird was too close, I was over gravel pit heading for 18 told tower "im in green and white t-18 with ac headed right at me, what do you want me to do" the tower told me if able dive right and land on white dot. they called the guy who did the 360 to follow me land on green dot and report to tower when secured. The tower told me I did the right thing by speaking up.... Enough said. Practice speed control, and short approached, my Thorp was great in a slip, the RV6 seems beeter with flaps.

KirkGrovesRV8 said:

I have been practicing quite a bit and feel confident I can safely fly my 8 around at 65kts if I have too.
Again I am just a putz but those are my thoughts

Click to expand...

Those are good thoughts, and it is good to practice flying slow. Any one proficient in an RV should be able to slow fly behind just about any airplane that should be flying the Fisk arrival. The problem is...RV's aren't the only airplane in the sky, and at times there can be a whole bunch of other pilots running up your rear that can't safely fly at 65-70 knots.

Did you guys hear there is $100 fine for not having or knowing the NOTAM upon landing? The FAA is going to ramp check everyone!

RV's don't belong in the high pattern

rvbuilder2002 said:

It's also is clear that everyone is supposed to maintain 90 kts.
I agree, if you show up needing to S turn because you are not able to fly as slow as 90 kts then you shouldn't be there. You should be in the higher (and higher speed) arrival pattern
If you are S turning because someone is flying well under 90 kts then they are the ones that the controllers should be directing out of the arrival pattern.

Click to expand...

NOTAM Page 6, bullet 3: "...Maintain 1,800 MSL and 90 knots (or maximum cruise speed if less than 90 kts). If unable..."

I am not trying to pick a fight, but,
1] NOTAM allows for slower planes. See above in parentheses.
2] "unable" does not, IMHO, mean if you are not up to it; it means if your airplane is not up to it.

NOTAM page 5, right column, paragraph 4,
"Pilots should maintain single file flight with at least 1/2 mile in-trail spacing... If you have to "S-Turn"... leave the approach path, return to Ripon and restart.."

I just don't see anything here that justifies using the higher speed pattern in a normal RV. I'm not even above average and I can do it. If you cannot, then perhaps you should re-think this. Also, I suspect that even with a CS prop, you can't land it as they expect you to (short with quick turn off) from a 135 knot approach. Definitely not with a FP prop.

I think most pilots do a good job getting into and out of OSH. I think most "accidents" are caused by pilots trying to do things in an airplane they have never done before. Slow flight, slips, spot landing, ect.

#1 Rule at OSH = Don't do any manuver or speed you haven't done 10 times before.

If the controller asks you to do something that you do not feel you can do, go around. Simple flying, no fancy stuff. WATCH YOUR AIRSPEED, keep it up to where you know you can fly. If you need to break out of the pattern head back to Ripon and start over, unless directed otherwise by the controllers.

Don't worry about the other guys making mistakes. Keep an eye out, but keep your head clear. Keep yourself safe to flyin next year. Make sure the guy behind the guy in front of you is doing his best piloting.

When you land & tie down give a war hoop! You have made it to the Big Show.

clarification

hevansrv7a said:

NOTAM Page 6, bullet 3: "...Maintain 1,800 MSL and 90 knots (or maximum cruise speed if less than 90 kts). If unable..."

I am not trying to pick a fight, but,
1] NOTAM allows for slower planes. See above in parentheses.
2] "unable" does not, IMHO, mean if you are not up to it; it means if your airplane is not up to it.

NOTAM page 5, right column, paragraph 4,
"Pilots should maintain single file flight with at least 1/2 mile in-trail spacing... If you have to "S-Turn"... leave the approach path, return to Ripon and restart.."

I just don't see anything here that justifies using the higher speed pattern in a normal RV. I'm not even above average and I can do it. If you cannot, then perhaps you should re-think this. Also, I suspect that even with a CS prop, you can't land it as they expect you to (short with quick turn off) from a 135 knot approach. Definitely not with a FP prop.

Click to expand...

Your right....I should have been more clear.
I meant airplanes capable of 90 kts. A cub can't go any faster than a cub goes. I was speaking of all the pilots that are capable of 90 kts but still hold up traffic. It happens all the time.

sprucemoose said:

Alan (and others)

You have an idea there with the higher, 135 kt pattern, and this might be a good idea for airplanes like the Legacy. RVs can certainly try to use it to...

but...

...I have heard, in past years, controllers scold airplanes (like RVs) coming in on the higher pattern and order them to get down to 1800 feet and 90 kts. You might get away with it, but be prepared to fly the lower pattern if you have to. I would practice your 90 kt flying even if you are planning to use the higher pattern.

Click to expand...

If in trail behind a slow airplane at 60 knots and there is a slot open ahead of him which there usually is because he is so slow, I pass him. It's as simple as that.

The 90 knot speed limit is ok, but some airplanes don't go that fast down hill and "s" turning behind them is ridiculous. However, they have a right to fly to OSH like everyone else and a little common sense goes a long way to deal with situations not covered by the NOTAM. If need be, slip out 10 flaps and fly at 70 knots or whatever VSo plus 30% is in your airplane. None of this is rocket science. It is basic aviatoring and unfortunately some have forgotten the very basic stuff like slow flight.

If you fly twice a year and one of those flights is to OSH, you WILL BE overwhelmed and it would be wise to stay home or drive.

Fly the route as best you can, don't run into anyone, and don't stall the airplane. Do that and everyone will be happy, especially FAA and EAA officials.