E-LSA vs E-AB of the RV-12

So I've been reading about how the RV-12 is not going to be offered as an E-AB, at least initially. As I understand it if I deviate from the LSA version of the aircraft in any way I am basically on my own to get the aircraft signed off for flight. It seems to be hinged upon the FAA not approving any more kits for the 51% rule. If I assemble the aircraft and have the documentation and photos (builders log) to back my claim up how big of a gamble would I be taking?

The only modifications that I would consider are adding strobes, landing lights, and avionics, and interior/exterior cosmetics. I did see that Vans will be offering strobes and lights in the future though.

The appeal of building my own aircraft was the ability to personalize the aircraft for my tastes and needs and to also be able to perform all my own maintenance. I plan on flying as a private pilot rather than a sport pilot so exceeding the LSA specifications, such as cruise speed by a few knots, is less important to me.

How strict would a DAR be in one of these inspections?

Depends on the DAR...everyone is different. Hopefully it won't be much of an issue.

mfazio said:

So I've been reading about how the RV-12 is not going to be offered as an E-AB, at least initially.

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Eh? Hang on a sec ... Why isn't the -12 "available" as a EX-AB? If you build it and can prove to a DAR's satisfaction that it meets the rule, regardless of whether the FAA has "approved" the kit or not, it's EX-AB, right? Yes, if you build a kit that isn't FAA "approved", then you are taking some risk. But just because the feds haven't said that it meets the "51% rule" doesn't mean that it doesn't meet the requirements of the rule.

TODR

Yep, that is pretty much what I thought until reading several references to the kit not being "approved". Didn't think it would have been much of an issue if you have supporting documentation.

My real question was as to how risky is this - what is the likelyhood that I build a kit and then the DAR doesn't agree with the "51%" nature of the kit? Since most everything is prepunched to final hole size (at least that is what I believe is the case?) would this be looked at as a higher level of completion from the factory?

Thought I'd ask rather than finding out the hard way that I could not license it as a E-AB down the road as that would be a very costly mistake. Considering all the professional assistance that can be had these days I can't imagine a DAR having a problem licensing as a E-AB if I have all the supporting docs that I completed all the assemblies.

Realistically I would think that the kit would get the 51% approval well before I completed the aircraft.

RV-12 as an E-AB...RVator

Read the RV-12 Q&A on page 7 of Van's RVator, 2nd Issue, 2008. Doug linked to it this morning on his vaf.net site.

The question is "Can I license a kit-built RV-12 as an Experimental-Amateur Built?"

The answer is "Yes, but..."

Read it, peruse it, cogitate...and form your own opinion(s).

For further thought and consideration, read the article, The Bear Makes Rules, on page 10 of the same publication.

Don

mfazio said:

Yep, that is pretty much what I thought until reading several references to the kit not being "approved". Didn't think it would have been much of an issue if you have supporting documentation.

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Agreed, with one nit-picky note: The lack of FAA approval is not the same as denial from the FAA. Just because it hasn't been approved as a 51% kit doesn't mean it can't/won't be. No data is no data, and I believe on the -12, we have no data.

TODR

Another thing

As has been covered before, you can build to E-LSA, have it inspected, then change it all you want, as long as it stays within LSA limitations. Yes, it could add time and 're-work', but you can do it.

John Bender

From what I understand of the E-LSA, it has to be built exactly like the LSA version. Some modification like strobes would require prewiring the wings and supporting electrical which may be difficult to do after the fact. Also having to redo the panel sounds expensive. As others have pointed out my initial concerns are probably not much of an issue considering the minor modifications I had in mind.

I would think that the -12 will qualify for E-AB at some time even though there is still some uncertainty as to what the feds are going to settle on (as van mentioned in RVator - "guarded optimism"). I'm really interested in this design and would love to start building today but holding off until things solidify just a bit more - still waiting to see some published performance data.

As for VAF - I'm really impressed. Been on some other builder forums and seems to be a lot more bickering and sniping. Really appreciate the help.

Mike
-12 wannabe

Recycle...

mfazio said:

..... Also having to redo the panel sounds expensive......
Mike
-12 wannabe

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It should not be too bad....

You could sell your completed panel and instruments/avionics to another builder who has not yet reached that stage and recoup the $$$...

gil A

wiring for lights and strobes

mfazio said:

From what I understand of the E-LSA, it has to be built exactly like the LSA version. Some modification like strobes would require prewiring the wings and supporting electrical which may be difficult to do after the fact. Also having to redo the panel sounds expensive. As others have pointed out my initial concerns are probably not much of an issue considering the minor modifications I had in mind.

I would think that the -12 will qualify for E-AB at some time even though there is still some uncertainty as to what the feds are going to settle on (as van mentioned in RVator - "guarded optimism"). I'm really interested in this design and would love to start building today but holding off until things solidify just a bit more - still waiting to see some published performance data.

As for VAF - I'm really impressed. Been on some other builder forums and seems to be a lot more bickering and sniping. Really appreciate the help.

Mike
-12 wannabe

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Mike:

The wing kit includes plastic bushings and specifically instructs you to install a string in each wing for later installation of wiring (see also Jim Cone's pictures of wings in progress). The panel is also set up for supporting electrical. Finally, I specifically asked Ken about this at Sun n' Fun. They have designed things so addition of lights and strobes will not be difficult after the fact.

Here in Brazil, there is not LSA. There is something alike, but requirements are different.

Having said that, I would build it like any ordinary amateur aircraft.

Considering that, I am thinking about doing some changes to increase performance:

1. Rotax 914 Turbo (115HP) with eletric constant speed propeller
2. Flush rivets
3. Wheel/leg paints

Does anyone could figure out what TAS I can get using 75% at DA 8000?

I imagine something around 130-135 knots...

Piloto.Mendes said:

Here in Brazil, there is not LSA. There is something alike, but requirements are different.

Having said that, I would build it like any ordinary amateur aircraft.

Considering that, I am thinking about doing some changes to increase performance:

1. Rotax 914 Turbo (115HP) with eletric constant speed propeller
2. Flush rivets
3. Wheel/leg paints

.

Click to expand...

So, are you thinking of driven AN426 type, or pull type flush rivets??

Tom

todehnal said:

So, are you thinking of driven AN426 type, or pull type flush rivets??

Tom

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I still don't know differences about rivet type. I will soon search deeply abou this matter.

When I refere to flush rivet, I mean a rivet that doesn't produce drag. What rivet type complies complies with all requirements?

Piloto.Mendes said:

I still don't know differences about rivet type. I will soon search deeply about this matter.

When I refer to flush rivet, I mean a rivet that doesn't produce drag. What rivet type complies complies with all requirements?

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The AN426 is a solid rivet driven with a rivet gun and bucking bar, as opposed to a pulled (pop) rivet.

Mel said:

The AN426 is a solid rivet driven with a rivet gun and bucking bar, as opposed to a pulled (pop) rivet.

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Thanks for info.

Any of them may have a flush head?

Yes...

Piloto.Mendes said:

Thanks for info.

Any of them may have a flush head?

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Both are available with flush head. One minor difference is that the solid AD rivet has a 100 degree head whereas the pulled rivets typically have a 120 degree head.

Mel said:

Both are available with flush head. One minor difference is that the solid AD rivet has a 100 degree head whereas the pulled rivets typically have a 120 degree head.

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Thanks again!!!