This may start a new endless debate, but does anyone have any comparison for these two systems. Any hard data to support your point of view. I'm considering the One slick mag and one E-mag/P-Mag. I have installed one LS on a IO-540 and it was kind of a PITA. Thanks, Aden.
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P-Mags vs LS E/I
- Thread starter Aden Rich
- Start date
N941WR
Legacy Member
Aden,
I'm a P-mag bigot and think the world of them. They have had a lot of teething problems but those seem to be behind them now.
As you probably know LS also had some major teething problems when they first came out but those seem to be forgotten, as I hope the P-Mag issues will be.
You are correct, the LS is a PITA to install, whereas the P-mags are EASY to install. Also, the P-mags don't require any modifications to the flywheel.
Other than that, they both work as designed, once installed.
It is really your call to go with the new kid or the tried and true.
One thing I really like about the P-mags is their electrical system independence, should you have a problem. This allows for an easier install and doesn't require a secondary electrical system. However, if you are installing a duel electrical system, than that is a moot point.
I'm a P-mag bigot and think the world of them. They have had a lot of teething problems but those seem to be behind them now.
As you probably know LS also had some major teething problems when they first came out but those seem to be forgotten, as I hope the P-Mag issues will be.
You are correct, the LS is a PITA to install, whereas the P-mags are EASY to install. Also, the P-mags don't require any modifications to the flywheel.
Other than that, they both work as designed, once installed.
It is really your call to go with the new kid or the tried and true.
One thing I really like about the P-mags is their electrical system independence, should you have a problem. This allows for an easier install and doesn't require a secondary electrical system. However, if you are installing a duel electrical system, than that is a moot point.
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I hope you're right
I've been following the emag/pmag program for some time now hoping that they'd work out the kinks before I had to buy, because I really like the concept.
I haven't heard a lot of info about them recently, so did they work out the kinks or did people stop buying them?
Possible evidence that they're ready for primetime... As of March 1, Superior now offers them as an option on their XP series engines. I will, of course, do my own research and make sure I'm comfortable with my final decision, but I think a major engine shop like Superior offering them as a warrantied option gives them some credibility points. No product is perfect, but I would like to think Superior wouldn't be offering the option if they thought the product was still problem filled.
I've been following the emag/pmag program for some time now hoping that they'd work out the kinks before I had to buy, because I really like the concept.
I haven't heard a lot of info about them recently, so did they work out the kinks or did people stop buying them?
Possible evidence that they're ready for primetime... As of March 1, Superior now offers them as an option on their XP series engines. I will, of course, do my own research and make sure I'm comfortable with my final decision, but I think a major engine shop like Superior offering them as a warrantied option gives them some credibility points. No product is perfect, but I would like to think Superior wouldn't be offering the option if they thought the product was still problem filled.
gvgoff99
Well Known Member
Another E-Mag Bigot
Actually a P-Mag bigot
. My experience with Brad and the dual P-Mag set up I have is only good. Yes, I have gone through the teething issues. Brad or someone at the company (usually Brad) will call back "same day." I even have a call back from OSH by Brad when one of the early versions left me stranded in North Carolina. I had to drive home but the "fix" was two new Mags without a wait. It is obvious that they are "using" the experimental community to do the Beta testing on the Mags. It is no secret that they are going toward certification. They are similar to the TruTrack guys in knowledge. I would not hesitate to get the new P- or E- Mags. They are a piece of cake to install.
Actually a P-Mag bigot
. My experience with Brad and the dual P-Mag set up I have is only good. Yes, I have gone through the teething issues. Brad or someone at the company (usually Brad) will call back "same day." I even have a call back from OSH by Brad when one of the early versions left me stranded in North Carolina. I had to drive home but the "fix" was two new Mags without a wait. It is obvious that they are "using" the experimental community to do the Beta testing on the Mags. It is no secret that they are going toward certification. They are similar to the TruTrack guys in knowledge. I would not hesitate to get the new P- or E- Mags. They are a piece of cake to install.
N941WR
Legacy Member
Check out this thread, there is more info on there regarding P-mags than you digest in a night. The answer seems to be that they have worked the kinks out.
To see all the Electronic Ignition threads, scroll to the bottom and change the length of time you want to see. Or simply do a search.
P-mags!
I've got about 320 hours on P-mags now. The first 160 hours were painful wherein I had three failures (one of which was my own fault - you have to be very careful about making the ignition wires and not nicking the core). The last 160 hours have been trouble-free (knock on wood!). Brad at e-mag has always been very helpful, and I would buy them again. The thing I like about p-mags is they run on their own power. No data on LS as I don't have them.
I've got about 320 hours on P-mags now. The first 160 hours were painful wherein I had three failures (one of which was my own fault - you have to be very careful about making the ignition wires and not nicking the core). The last 160 hours have been trouble-free (knock on wood!). Brad at e-mag has always been very helpful, and I would buy them again. The thing I like about p-mags is they run on their own power. No data on LS as I don't have them.
tommylewis
Well Known Member
same here also
Two PMAGs, 113, with 271 hours in first year of flying. One failure at 13 hours, good since then. When I did the condition inspection two weeks ago, I had both PMAGs update to latest rev. Since I live an hour from their factory, was able to drive it in and wait while they were updated. The discussions with Brad and Tom just served to confirm my belief that I made the right decision to go with them.
Good luck with your decision.
Two PMAGs, 113, with 271 hours in first year of flying. One failure at 13 hours, good since then. When I did the condition inspection two weeks ago, I had both PMAGs update to latest rev. Since I live an hour from their factory, was able to drive it in and wait while they were updated. The discussions with Brad and Tom just served to confirm my belief that I made the right decision to go with them.
Good luck with your decision.
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
DO the archives but.........
I'll say the P/E-mag is an easier installation with all the components in one housing mounted off the engine, including its own dynamo for self sustaining power for the P dash version. The E/P-mag works on the "Induction ignition" principle.
The Light speed is a CDI (capacitive discharge Ignition) and has separate components, separate trigger (flywheel / hall effect), brain/power box, coils and wires to connect them. There is no self power option.
Which one do you think performs better? The LSE, however when either brand is compared to a traditional magneto, they both provide hotter spark with variable timing, a big plus. Cost not much difference, but the LSE is a more expensive kind of ignition to make. Induction is much less expensive. Installation? The E/P-mag all-in-one configuration has it over the LSE, from what I see. The LSE has a MAP & RPM indication option and for the brave a cockpit adjustable advance control. The LSE has a flywheel trigger that, is more involved to install but it eliminates a lot of issues driving off a gear in the accessory case, formally used by the magneto. However LSE has a acc case hall effect unit as well.
There are many Pro/Cons for each design. The service for both is good. LSE has been around longer and has evolved their product over a longer time. The only thing I can say I do NOT like about the E/P-mag that keeps me from it is the way wires are attached to the unit, with a computer / electronic grade terminal strip. I don't think that belongs in an engine compartment, especially something shaking like crazy. It is a weak point in my opinion, born out with some service problems. It's just not a Mil Spec cannon plug. People have worked around it and there are some tips and hints to make the connections more solid. The LSE has some little peculiarities and some little issues that have popped up over the years, but it either has been up graded by the manufacture or it was a installers wiring issue. If installed done well, the LSE has proven to be rock solid.
This is such a critical part of the engine I suggest you Google and Archive search this and any forum you can find, as well as call or write each manufacture. There are other electronic ignitions but the above two are undoubtedly the most popular. The other top one is the Electro Air. It has changed hands from the founder and the new version is much improved from the original, which by all accounts was a very good unit. I have a friend that flys an RV-4 with two of them. ElectroAir was around way before P/E-mag. I would say the Electro Air is between the LSE and E/P-mag in form and function. I don't know any one flying with it but it seems solid.
Aden do an archive search. It's all been written before, yes endlessly. Like all things in life and aviation there are trade offs.
I'll say the P/E-mag is an easier installation with all the components in one housing mounted off the engine, including its own dynamo for self sustaining power for the P dash version. The E/P-mag works on the "Induction ignition" principle.
The Light speed is a CDI (capacitive discharge Ignition) and has separate components, separate trigger (flywheel / hall effect), brain/power box, coils and wires to connect them. There is no self power option.
Which one do you think performs better? The LSE, however when either brand is compared to a traditional magneto, they both provide hotter spark with variable timing, a big plus. Cost not much difference, but the LSE is a more expensive kind of ignition to make. Induction is much less expensive. Installation? The E/P-mag all-in-one configuration has it over the LSE, from what I see. The LSE has a MAP & RPM indication option and for the brave a cockpit adjustable advance control. The LSE has a flywheel trigger that, is more involved to install but it eliminates a lot of issues driving off a gear in the accessory case, formally used by the magneto. However LSE has a acc case hall effect unit as well.
There are many Pro/Cons for each design. The service for both is good. LSE has been around longer and has evolved their product over a longer time. The only thing I can say I do NOT like about the E/P-mag that keeps me from it is the way wires are attached to the unit, with a computer / electronic grade terminal strip. I don't think that belongs in an engine compartment, especially something shaking like crazy. It is a weak point in my opinion, born out with some service problems. It's just not a Mil Spec cannon plug. People have worked around it and there are some tips and hints to make the connections more solid. The LSE has some little peculiarities and some little issues that have popped up over the years, but it either has been up graded by the manufacture or it was a installers wiring issue. If installed done well, the LSE has proven to be rock solid.
This is such a critical part of the engine I suggest you Google and Archive search this and any forum you can find, as well as call or write each manufacture. There are other electronic ignitions but the above two are undoubtedly the most popular. The other top one is the Electro Air. It has changed hands from the founder and the new version is much improved from the original, which by all accounts was a very good unit. I have a friend that flys an RV-4 with two of them. ElectroAir was around way before P/E-mag. I would say the Electro Air is between the LSE and E/P-mag in form and function. I don't know any one flying with it but it seems solid.
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tommylewis
Well Known Member
Oh???
replies in bold
"The LSE has a MAP and RPM indication option and for the brave a cockpit adjustable advance control. " The E/PMAG option has MAP and RPM indication option and adjustable advance control through the serial interface to your cockpit mounted computer and emags software. Definitely for the brave.
"The LSE has a flywheel trigger that may be more involved to install but it eliminates a lot of issues driving off the accessory case. " PMAGs definitely have the advantage here, easy install.
"The only thing I can say I do NOT like about the E/P-mag that keeps me from it is the way wires are attached to the unit, with a computer electronic terminal strip. It is a weak point in my opinion born out with some service problems. " What service issues? Not see one post on the forums with data about service issues, lots of opinions by several folks, but no data. After a year of flying behind two PMAGs, I do not see any real issue.
replies in bold
"The LSE has a MAP and RPM indication option and for the brave a cockpit adjustable advance control. " The E/PMAG option has MAP and RPM indication option and adjustable advance control through the serial interface to your cockpit mounted computer and emags software. Definitely for the brave.
"The LSE has a flywheel trigger that may be more involved to install but it eliminates a lot of issues driving off the accessory case. " PMAGs definitely have the advantage here, easy install.
"The only thing I can say I do NOT like about the E/P-mag that keeps me from it is the way wires are attached to the unit, with a computer electronic terminal strip. It is a weak point in my opinion born out with some service problems. " What service issues? Not see one post on the forums with data about service issues, lots of opinions by several folks, but no data. After a year of flying behind two PMAGs, I do not see any real issue.
frankh
Well Known Member
Terminal strip
I have seen two documented cases of the wires coming out but to be honest if you use the right size screw driver, get the screws nice and tight, make SURE you are not clamping down on insulation and use the strain relief...
Well there is no way those wires will come out in service.
They are a littly tricky and deserve special attention but as long as you do it right there is no issue in my not so humble opinion.
Frank
I have seen two documented cases of the wires coming out but to be honest if you use the right size screw driver, get the screws nice and tight, make SURE you are not clamping down on insulation and use the strain relief...
Well there is no way those wires will come out in service.
They are a littly tricky and deserve special attention but as long as you do it right there is no issue in my not so humble opinion.
Frank
Martin Sutter
Well Known Member
In the case of a P-Mag the unit will continue to function even if all the wires fall out. You will loose the tach signal and will not be able to turn it off with the kill switch but it will keep on making spark!
Martin Sutter
building and flying RV's since 1988
Martin Sutter
building and flying RV's since 1988
use your soldering iron
Tin the wires very well before you insert them into the terminal block. This allows the clamp to hold much better. It is important to use the strain relief to keep the wires from breaking or pulling out. They give you an adel clamp. Use it. Couple hundred hours with no problems with the wires. I had one early emag fail but Brad and Tom happily replaced it. Now I've upgraded to two p-Mags. I have them wired into an onboard computer but I have no intention of changing my advance in flight. But, I could if I wanted.
Tin the wires very well before you insert them into the terminal block. This allows the clamp to hold much better. It is important to use the strain relief to keep the wires from breaking or pulling out. They give you an adel clamp. Use it. Couple hundred hours with no problems with the wires. I had one early emag fail but Brad and Tom happily replaced it. Now I've upgraded to two p-Mags. I have them wired into an onboard computer but I have no intention of changing my advance in flight. But, I could if I wanted.
For a single LSE/magneto installation, there is a plug-in trigger generator that plugs into the right magneto hole where the magneto is removed. It has an LED which allows it to be accurately static timed. You only really need to install the crank trigger if you have two EIs, are going to install the LS EFI system that may be out soon, or you want more accurate timing than the accessory gears will allow because of gear slop and backlash.
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
No P-mag war please
As others have said, check it out, some Emag wiring has come loose. I'm not bashing, just fact. Regardless, I just personally don't like that particular design feature, with a terminal strip right off the PCB board.
Now to ramble on and pontificate...ha-ha. The E-mag is stuffed with a everything, coil, electronics and even a dynamo to make spark, aka P-mag. You have to make some concession in performance to fit it all in, such as smaller coil. Electronics also take a beating. E-mag did go though one major internal design change to beef up the durability of their circuit board, not a put down, that's a good thing. So being the new kids, only a few years to LSE and Electro Air, the flight test continues. I'm a total fan of the company and folks there.
In the area of rumor or "that's weird" world, there have been a E/P-mag or two that just stopped working, wiring or not. I have no details but remember reading it here on VAF or somewhere. So with out details its under "urban legend" or myth category. There was one off field RV landing in Arizona (successfully) flying with dual E/P-mags. The engine just quit. He later took off from the road he landed on after finding nothing wrong. Weird right? I never heard what the reason was, for the loss of power, but ignition was one suspect (unproven to my knowledge). Dual ign failure is highly unlikely, unless you had a common ignition switch for both E/P-mag's and it failed. Also in the weird world, some mag drive gear's that E-mag sold, not Lyc OEM, where not heat treated and made metal in the engine. Now resolved, it's those little things when developing an experimental ignition. Another case was during a run-up but have no details. That is why we do run ups and ignition checks. Stuff happens and that is why we have two ignitions, nothing is 100% reliable 100% of the time. Even good old magnetos fail. The be fair the magneto is very reliable, it just puts out a weak spark at a constant 25 degree advance.
To be "Far and Balanced" LSE has had some issues. One that happened over 10 or 15 years ago I recall was a component in the box came loose. It was just fatigue of a soldered discrete component, and it came loose. This was the first version so LSE changed the design to Mrk II and so on. The hall effect trigger is just like mounting a MAG and forgoes the need to install a flywheel trigger, but than you need to run a wire from it to the electronics. Than some will say having electronics not vibrating in a cooler location is better? Could be. I'll say for some, the flywheel trigger is a real life saver, in some installations, like H2AD engines. The H2AD is that odd ball Lyc with one mag hole. It's a nice clean reliable trigger option that is more accurate, but I like the LSE hall effect option better, just for installation reasons. Actually I can't use LSE's trigger because I have a flywheel with a smaller pulley.
Look I have no dog in this hunt. We should not worship any one ignition but look at them with a critical eye. The E/P-mag is not perfect but pretty good so far. The LSE is not perfect but pretty good. They are indeed totally different it fit , form and function.
The real Electronic ignition wars should be a fly-off or test. Get a plane and try both, evaluate the differences. The only electronic ignition to be exhaustively tested and evaluated to the N-th degree is the ElectroAir (original). It was evaluated by Cafe Foundation and the test is on their website. It is a MUST READ if you are considering EI. It is a good primer on how they all work. There are three articles in a series on the dynamics of electronic ignition (using Electro Air's unit). Here's the link:
http://cafefoundation.org/v2/research_reports.php
Electro Air's website also has cool technical info. I'm not pushing this unit but check'em out, good info that applies to all EI.
http://www.electroair.net/technical.html
I would say performance wise the ElectroAir performs better than the E/P-mag but not as well as the LSE. Just my opinion based the design and types of ignitions; for pure performance the LSE is best and runs on lower voltage. All other electronic ignitions are induction (Emag, ElectoAir), which needs more volts to keep working. CDI ignition's like the LSE do not need as much volts; I think it works down to 8 volts. However no argument please, the P-mag makes its own juice, pretty cool. As long as you have a strong battery, you can drive two E-mags or Electoair's for hours or longer on battery power only, depending on the battery and other electrical load for the rest of the plane. My plan is dual LSE's and a small secondary battery that isolates one of the ignition's from the main buss. A little more work, but I like the LSE design a little better. If Emag changed their connector, I would consider it, but no doubt to keep weight and cost down, they had to do that. Everything is a compromise.
As others have said, check it out, some Emag wiring has come loose. I'm not bashing, just fact. Regardless, I just personally don't like that particular design feature, with a terminal strip right off the PCB board.
Now to ramble on and pontificate...ha-ha. The E-mag is stuffed with a everything, coil, electronics and even a dynamo to make spark, aka P-mag. You have to make some concession in performance to fit it all in, such as smaller coil. Electronics also take a beating. E-mag did go though one major internal design change to beef up the durability of their circuit board, not a put down, that's a good thing. So being the new kids, only a few years to LSE and Electro Air, the flight test continues. I'm a total fan of the company and folks there.
In the area of rumor or "that's weird" world, there have been a E/P-mag or two that just stopped working, wiring or not. I have no details but remember reading it here on VAF or somewhere. So with out details its under "urban legend" or myth category. There was one off field RV landing in Arizona (successfully) flying with dual E/P-mags. The engine just quit. He later took off from the road he landed on after finding nothing wrong. Weird right? I never heard what the reason was, for the loss of power, but ignition was one suspect (unproven to my knowledge). Dual ign failure is highly unlikely, unless you had a common ignition switch for both E/P-mag's and it failed. Also in the weird world, some mag drive gear's that E-mag sold, not Lyc OEM, where not heat treated and made metal in the engine. Now resolved, it's those little things when developing an experimental ignition. Another case was during a run-up but have no details. That is why we do run ups and ignition checks. Stuff happens and that is why we have two ignitions, nothing is 100% reliable 100% of the time. Even good old magnetos fail. The be fair the magneto is very reliable, it just puts out a weak spark at a constant 25 degree advance.
To be "Far and Balanced" LSE has had some issues. One that happened over 10 or 15 years ago I recall was a component in the box came loose. It was just fatigue of a soldered discrete component, and it came loose. This was the first version so LSE changed the design to Mrk II and so on. The hall effect trigger is just like mounting a MAG and forgoes the need to install a flywheel trigger, but than you need to run a wire from it to the electronics. Than some will say having electronics not vibrating in a cooler location is better? Could be. I'll say for some, the flywheel trigger is a real life saver, in some installations, like H2AD engines. The H2AD is that odd ball Lyc with one mag hole. It's a nice clean reliable trigger option that is more accurate, but I like the LSE hall effect option better, just for installation reasons. Actually I can't use LSE's trigger because I have a flywheel with a smaller pulley.
Look I have no dog in this hunt. We should not worship any one ignition but look at them with a critical eye. The E/P-mag is not perfect but pretty good so far. The LSE is not perfect but pretty good. They are indeed totally different it fit , form and function.
The real Electronic ignition wars should be a fly-off or test. Get a plane and try both, evaluate the differences. The only electronic ignition to be exhaustively tested and evaluated to the N-th degree is the ElectroAir (original). It was evaluated by Cafe Foundation and the test is on their website. It is a MUST READ if you are considering EI. It is a good primer on how they all work. There are three articles in a series on the dynamics of electronic ignition (using Electro Air's unit). Here's the link:
http://cafefoundation.org/v2/research_reports.php
Electro Air's website also has cool technical info. I'm not pushing this unit but check'em out, good info that applies to all EI.
http://www.electroair.net/technical.html
I would say performance wise the ElectroAir performs better than the E/P-mag but not as well as the LSE. Just my opinion based the design and types of ignitions; for pure performance the LSE is best and runs on lower voltage. All other electronic ignitions are induction (Emag, ElectoAir), which needs more volts to keep working. CDI ignition's like the LSE do not need as much volts; I think it works down to 8 volts. However no argument please, the P-mag makes its own juice, pretty cool. As long as you have a strong battery, you can drive two E-mags or Electoair's for hours or longer on battery power only, depending on the battery and other electrical load for the rest of the plane. My plan is dual LSE's and a small secondary battery that isolates one of the ignition's from the main buss. A little more work, but I like the LSE design a little better. If Emag changed their connector, I would consider it, but no doubt to keep weight and cost down, they had to do that. Everything is a compromise.
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Tinning the wires will put a stress point where it stops and the vibration may end up fracturing the wire at that point.
We took care, stripped and screwed in. Then bundled the wires and secured them using the clamp - there is no way they can vibrate so should be good. I will report back next year when we fly
We took care, stripped and screwed in. Then bundled the wires and secured them using the clamp - there is no way they can vibrate so should be good. I will report back next year when we fly
Ferrules
Just as an added thought, when I installed my P-Mag I used ferrules on the wires. I use them all the time at work and find that they increase retention. I've only flown on it about 20 hours, but every preflight when I check the oil I tug on the wires. I will say I'm a bit surprised that they use screw terminals. I am thinking about swapping the plug-in header to one that uses cage clamps.
Just as an added thought, when I installed my P-Mag I used ferrules on the wires. I use them all the time at work and find that they increase retention. I've only flown on it about 20 hours, but every preflight when I check the oil I tug on the wires. I will say I'm a bit surprised that they use screw terminals. I am thinking about swapping the plug-in header to one that uses cage clamps.
Thanks for the info
To All,
Thanks for all of the input. I have purchased my engine and it comes with mags so I will use those for now. They work and will get me into the air with relative little expense and issues. I think I will get one P-mag in the future when I can afford it. I hear they have been working on getting a new connection for the hookup to the units and it should be waterproof and lock in like the kind we see in our cars. Good luck.
To All,
Thanks for all of the input. I have purchased my engine and it comes with mags so I will use those for now. They work and will get me into the air with relative little expense and issues. I think I will get one P-mag in the future when I can afford it. I hear they have been working on getting a new connection for the hookup to the units and it should be waterproof and lock in like the kind we see in our cars. Good luck.
