What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Tip: New Annunciator Panel

Ironflight

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
In working on some future design ideas, I decided to try and "repackage" the annunciator panel that I originally built for the Val - the one that fits up above my GRT EFIS stack.When I built it originally, I used discrete LED's, soldered in dropping resistors, and built the case from raw "U"-Channel stock.

After finding some nice 12 volt LED indicator lamps, and using them for a single-row annunciator panel in "Mikey" (Louise's RV-6) I decided to try and build a multi-row unit for something I have in the works. Since my original one was built to connect to the airframe through a nine-pin D-Sub connector, it was easy to build a drop-in replacement (all I had to do was dig through my stack of building notes to find the original pin-outs....)

Here are some pics to give people ideas of how to do their own - as they say, picture is worth a thousand words! (it is just an aluminum bezel, the lights, and some wiring - cost was almost nothing)

IMG_6516.jpg


IMG_6519.jpg


IMG_6521.jpg


Paul
 
Last edited:
"Ditto"

Paul,
Ditto,, looks nice. I would like to install something similiar as I forgot to turn off my boost pump the other day on a night flight and it wasn't until I started to lean out and watch my EIS fuel flow did I realize that I had not turned off the boost. Where did you get these and would they be too bright at night or would you run them through the dash dimmer?
Thanks.
Kenny Gene
RV 7A 118 hours
AWC issued 9-7-07
 
Kenny Gene said:
Where did you get these and would they be too bright at night or would you run them through the dash dimmer?
Click to expand...

Kenny,

I found the indictor lights at a local electronics part store here, but someone else found them for sale on the web....I can't find th epost now....but a very easy way to do lamps.

I do run the lamps through a dimmer on my panel, and that works out very well - you want to be able to fine tune them for the conditions, but not turn them so far down that you accidently leave them so dim that they don't get your attention in daytime!

Paul
 
I used the 12x16 LED lamps from MPJA. Just to add another datapoint, here's an early prototype I made:

AnnunciatorPanel-small.jpg


I give full credit to Paul and Gil for the idea. These lamps are just what I was looking for in order to get a sufficiently "military/commercial" look. Sweet!
 
Brand of lights?

Hi guys,

For those of you who have these indicators already, do you know who the actual manufacturer is? I have some EAO lights and lighted pushbuttons that look very similar to the ones shown in the photos. It would be nice to have a cheaper supply of matching extras, if I need them. For reference, the ones I have are these.

thanks,
mcb
 
Hi Matt,

The LED light assemblies I got from MPJA have no markings on them except a small decal that says "NEWLT" in a diamond-shaped outline. The cases are plastic, and they have solder-terminals.

Hope that helps identify them. They certainly look like the EAO lights.
 
Matt -

I agree with Buck - they look suspiciously like the EAO lights you referenced. Mine came from a bin at the local parts place, and had no other markign than the diamond with NEWLT in them....

Paul
 
I have a question...

...for those items that are switched (like master power, fuel pump, starter, primer, etc) would you have a rocker switch that is lit when 'on', or a toggle switch and a separate annunciator. For whichever answer, why?
 
AntiGravity said:
...for those items that are switched (like master power, fuel pump, starter, primer, etc) would you have a rocker switch that is lit when 'on', or a toggle switch and a separate annunciator. For whichever answer, why?
Click to expand...

A lighted rocker switch would be another easy way to jog your memory that you've left it on...."IF" it is in your normal field of view of course. Louise's old panel had a lighted rocker for the fuel pump, but it was low and to the pilot's right, and I kept leaving it on....

I just like the look and feel of regular toggle switches for my own panel.

Paul
 
Intensity

It might be more a question of light intensity - a lot of the lit rocker switches have a light level that is more of the "internal lighting" level that illuminates the text on the rocker.

I think your original question would refer to the lighting as a "warning" light level. I'm not sure that they are that bright.

gil A

PS lighting up the legends on your rocker switches at night does look cool...:cool:
 
One potential issue with the lighted switches vs. indicator lights is what they are actually indicating.

A lighted switch tells you the switch is on------the accessory it controls may or may not actually be on.

An indicator light wired to the same lead as the accessory, will at least let you know that the accessory is getting power.

Minor difference, yes, but I have seen times in the past when this was an issue.
 
Depends

Mike S said:
One potential issue with the lighted switches vs. indicator lights is what they are actually indicating.

A lighted switch tells you the switch is on------the accessory it controls may or may not actually be on.

An indicator light wired to the same lead as the accessory, will at least let you know that the accessory is getting power.

Minor difference, yes, but I have seen times in the past when this was an issue.
Click to expand...


Mike.... it would be quite easy (and the recommended way) to connect the bulb/LED to the switched output power to make the rocker an indicating rocker.

But, per my previous quote, this negates the rocker legend text being illuminated as part of the panel illumination - it could be done, multiple bulbs, different colors, etc. - but with way more complexity.

gil A
 
Gil, quite correct.

However, there are lighted switches where the light is internally controlled, with no provision to hood up as you suggest. These are typical in the automotive aftermarket industry, and Radio Shack et al.

Another way----not a real good way----is to use a double pole switch, and control the indicator lite, (separate unit or internal), using the second set of contacts.

Again, you will have an indicator, but you need to be aware of exactly what is being indicated.

I am just trying to get folks to think a bit, and not assume that a lit light means things are actually working.
 
Too many annunciator lights?

I think the annunciator light modules that are shown above look really nice.

At the same time, is there a risk of putting too many annunciator lights in your panel? For example, if there is always something lit up on the annunciator panel for normal flight operations, will the eye get so used to seeing lights on that it will begin to ignore the other lights that may come on and actually be critical to continued flight? (I realize different color lights can indicate differing levels of urgency, but I still wonder about the tendency to overlook lights simply because some are alwasy on.) Or, less severe, will the eye get so used to seeing lights on that you just stop looking at the individual annunciator lights to see what is on vs. what should be on? For the latter case, I find that a quick scan of my switch row will provide the same information as a light but without the clutter or distraction.

I'm not against annunciators as I have two annuciator lights in my panel: a green one for the master switch and an amber one for the aux. fuel pump. As much as possible, however, I've tried to avoid any other lights for the reasons above or simply for aesthetic reasons.

Just my .02. Again, nice job on making the annunciator lights look professionally done.
 
others are available

I am evaluating IDEC AL6Q, and AL6H models for this purpose.
Mine will be momentary/maintained for switching as well, right on the annunciator panel, and will include a lamp test (even though they are LEDs)

The indicators are electrically independent of the switch.

They make an indicator only version as well, in the same series.
 
Very good points Steve - a light that is always on is as useless as no light at all. In my design, any light that is on is a "reminder" that I should do something to get it off - none of them is intended to stay on for very long. The different colors do, of course, imply that it's OK to have a green light on (versus a red light, that says something is actually BAD), but still, the idea is that you don't want them on for any longer than necessary.

As long as a light is on, it is telling me that I am not in a "final" configuration.

Paul

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
a light that is always on is as useless as no light at all. In my design, any light that is on is a "reminder" that I should do something to get it off - none of them is intended to stay on for very long. <snip> the idea is that you don't want them on for any longer than necessary. As long as a light is on, it is telling me that I am not in a "final" configuration.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's a great way to think about it, and just what I was thinking when I was designing mine. I like a dark-cockpit philosophy for the enroute portion of the flight, and carefully-chosen lights that indicate the status of some of the switches during takeoff, climbout, approach-to-field, and landing. Of course, this setup does not necessarily mean the system is operating, just that the switch is in the proper position -- but it's still very helpful, in my opinion.

One of my lights will be different from the others. I plan to wire the pitot heat circuit with a reed switch and a simple circuit so that if the pitot heater fails (no current flowing) while the switch is ON, the light will actually flash. Should get even my attention. :D
 
Paul, light question.

Paul,
I am interested in knowing about the activation of your MASTER CAUTION, ESS BUSS, and EXT PWR lights. EXT PWR is actually pretty easy but what events trigger the MASTER CAUTION? I am thinking the ESS BUSS light might come on when that buss is the only one being powered which would be a non-normal (amber) situation?
 
Robert,

Master Caution is driven by my EFIS - anytime I have a message on the EFIS, this light alerts me. The ESS BUS light is on when I have the Essential Bus powered from it's alternate feed. And as you guessed, EXT POWER just tells me there is a voltage on the input side of the external power jack, so I know if I am connected or not.

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
Very good points Steve - a light that is always on is as useless as no light at all.
Click to expand...
I would argue that it's worse than no light at all! False alarms or things that are always lit both make for poor human interface, since people will ignore both. Then you start ignoring those things out of habit, and when they are important, you've learned to ignore them.... no bueno.

TODR
 
Daylight?

How readable are those LED indicator lights in the daytime? I played around with NKK LED switches, and driving them with the maximum recommended current, they were very dim. OK in a dark cockpit, but not in the daytime.

I gather these are better? I like Paul's annunciator panel, btw!

Thanks,
Martin
 
It's going to be a matter of personal preference, of course Martin, but I find this to be acceptably bright in Daytime - no problem seeing them at all.

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
Robert,

Master Caution is driven by my EFIS - anytime I have a message on the EFIS, this light alerts me. The ESS BUS light is on when I have the Essential Bus powered from it's alternate feed. And as you guessed, EXT POWER just tells me there is a voltage on the input side of the external power jack, so I know if I am connected or not.

Paul
Click to expand...
Paul,

I am a big fan of Apollo 13. In every space movie or documentary I have seen of space flight NASA calls it a Master Alarm, yet in aviation (not space flight) we use Master Caution. Do you know what the origin of Master Alarm is?
 
Craig said:
Paul,

I am a big fan of Apollo 13. In every space movie or documentary I have seen of space flight NASA calls it a Master Alarm, yet in aviation (not space flight) we use Master Caution. Do you know what the origin of Master Alarm is?
Click to expand...

I'm afraid that I'm not quite THAT old Craig....:rolleyes: I only go back to just before the first Shuttle flights. Interesting question though - I bet if you went back and looked at the airplanes that the original 7 astronauts were flying when they got into the program, you might find an answer...or not...

Paul
 
Last edited:
Paul,

I knew you were not old. I just thought you might have heard that bit of trivia around the ol' water cooler..:D Funny side note on sleeping while flying, Flying with a grizzled veteran captain and he told his much younger FO, I better not wake up and find you asleep! :eek:
 
'Master Alarm' may sometimes overstate the seriousness of a lighted indicator lamp, and like the word 'Fail' needs to be used only when absolutely necessary.

Regarding the dark cockpit concept - plan to provide a lamp test button to check for blown lamps/leds. If you never see an indicator lamp lit how do you know it is still working?

A lamp test button can be incorporated by diode isolating the lamp from the circuit it is monitoring and via a second diode for each indicator wiring them to a common PB switch.

Doug Gray
 
Work fine in Mikey

mgomez said:
How readable are those LED indicator lights in the daytime? I played around with NKK LED switches, and driving them with the maximum recommended current, they were very dim. OK in a dark cockpit, but not in the daytime.

I gather these are better? I like Paul's annunciator panel, btw!

Thanks,
Martin
Click to expand...

I answered this question and posted a picture as the last posting on page http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=24139&highlight=lights&page=11. So far, I have found them plenty bright and useful in bright daylight. Of course, they are under the glare shield. (The photograph clearly shows that they are much brighter than the Dynon screens, even the super bright D180.)
 
Doug said:
Regarding the dark cockpit concept - plan to provide a lamp test button to check for blown lamps/leds. If you never see an indicator lamp lit how do you know it is still working?

A lamp test button can be incorporated by diode isolating the lamp from the circuit it is monitoring and via a second diode for each indicator wiring them to a common PB switch.

Doug Gray
Click to expand...

That's a good point Doug, and something that needs to be considered. In the case of the Val's annunciators, I get an automatic test of the Master ("Alarm", "Warn","Caution","Fred"....whatever you want to call it....;)) every time I power up the system. Same thing is true of the Oil Pressure light - comes on before engine start. The other lights all come on when their function is activated, so I know if they are working (the functions are easy to see/hear) if they don't work. Even the pitot heat can be confirmed by looking at currents. So I decided I didn't need lamp test circuits for this particular set of lights.

Lamp test functions are standard in more complex annunciator systems, and should be. Of course, the problem is than how often do you do the lamp test? It only confirms that the light was working during the test - it might have failed since then....which leads to frequent lamp test if you are the nervous type. I have this debate all the time with folks in my business. turning something on to make sure it works doesn't ensure it will work the next time....but sometimes, it makes us feel better anyway!

Paul
 
CraigC said:
In every space movie or documentary I have seen of space flight NASA calls it a Master Alarm, yet in aviation (not space flight) we use Master Caution. Do you know what the origin of Master Alarm is?
Click to expand...

I don't know about the Master Alarm, but in the airplanes I fly (at work) we have multiple levels of alarms. There is a Master Caution, but above that is a Master Warning. There are also alarms for lessor items which don't have a master light associated with them. I would suspect that before they were separated out into differing levels, they would all just be on a Master Alarm.

Pat
 
Last edited:
Make/model

So does anyone know the specific make/model of these things?
http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=16990 LE

I'm having a very hard time finding a local source for them, or even anything like them. Closest I've got so far is one with an integrated pushbutton switch over thirteen times more expensive! If I had the make/model I could narrow my search. I'd order direct but they want a US $100 minimum order and a bank transfer. Ok, I could work my way up to the hundred bucks I guess with some other bits and pieces, but a bank transfer means a trip into town and another $25 for some lady behind the counter to press some buttons on her computer, which I absolutely have a hard time with...

That is, of course, assuming they would reply to my emails. Which they haven't. Which doesn't exactly instill me with confidence...
 
Doug said:
'Master Alarm' may sometimes overstate the seriousness of a lighted indicator lamp, and like the word 'Fail' needs to be used only when absolutely necessary.
Click to expand...
I don't think the RV is complicated enough, but in many systems (including airplanes, but also things like refineries, etc.), there is a caution that is different from the warning. Caution is a yellow light - pay attention, but it's not a Big Problem (e.g., fuel level low). Warning is red and means something that has immediate impact on the system right the heck now (no fuel pressure).

TODR
 
Red & yellow & green & blue ... all the colours of the rainbow

I fully intend to use that approach. Green for stuff that is always on (like master and avionics), though I'm thinking of leaving those out entirely. Blue for stuff that is on that I need to simply be aware of like the strobes, lights or wing wag being on (like an informational light). Yellow for stuff that I need to take note of or remember but isn't necessarily a 'right now' thing like the fuel pump is on, rear stick is enabled, etc. Finally, red for the 'oh-oh' stuff like low voltage, low fuel or low oil. I'm not altogether sure about this, because in my current plan I have lights on permanently sometimes, which kind of spoils the 'dark cockpit' idea which Paul mentioned and I think is a good approach. So I'm still working on it.

But LIGHTS man, everyone likes LIGHTS! A lot of things in this world, especially consumer electronics have flashing lights and bouncing LED stacks simply because the customers think its special that way :D I want some of those :D
 
Lights

AntiGravity said:
So does anyone know the specific make/model of these things?
http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=16990 LE

I'm having a very hard time finding a local source for them, or even anything like them. Closest I've got so far is one with an integrated pushbutton switch over thirteen times more expensive! If I had the make/model I could narrow my search. I'd order direct but they want a US $100 minimum order and a bank transfer. Ok, I could work my way up to the hundred bucks I guess with some other bits and pieces, but a bank transfer means a trip into town and another $25 for some lady behind the counter to press some buttons on her computer, which I absolutely have a hard time with...

That is, of course, assuming they would reply to my emails. Which they haven't. Which doesn't exactly instill me with confidence...
Click to expand...
Jeff,
Speed shops, racing supplies, auto, racecars use these same LED type annuncuator lights/legend lights. Boats also use them.
Silver Ferns forever,
Mike H 9A/8A
 
mike109g6 said:
Speed shops, racing supplies, auto, racecars use these same LED type annuncuator lights/legend lights. Boats also use them.
Click to expand...

Maybe so, Mike, but a NZ website search so far has turned up precisely 'zip'!! Unfortunately, with me working 7-days a week at the moment, I don't have the capacity to actually get out into the real world during business hours! If it isn't orderable (is that a word?) online it doesn't exist for me! :p

Cheers,
 
AntiGravity said:
So does anyone know the specific make/model of these things?
http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=16990 LE

I'm having a very hard time finding a local source for them, or even anything like them. Closest I've got so far is one with an integrated pushbutton switch over thirteen times more expensive! If I had the make/model I could narrow my search. I'd order direct but they want a US $100 minimum order and a bank transfer. Ok, I could work my way up to the hundred bucks I guess with some other bits and pieces, but a bank transfer means a trip into town and another $25 for some lady behind the counter to press some buttons on her computer, which I absolutely have a hard time with...

That is, of course, assuming they would reply to my emails. Which they haven't. Which doesn't exactly instill me with confidence...
Click to expand...

Anti- These things are not that expensive here. I could buy what you need and mail them to you if you don't need them yesterday.
 
Cheers everyone

Thanks Craig, and everyone else that has contacted me. Its great that there is such a cool bunch of people out there willing to help out. Us overseas lot, especially from lil 'ol NZ, sometimes find the logistics of getting bits and pieces something of a frustrating exercise, and usually a very expensive one. I reckon I'll have 30% of my plane tied up in freight and 'extra' stuff I didn't need but bought because it is easy to order lots than keep ordering littles!
 
Ironflight said:
Robert,

Master Caution is driven by my EFIS - anytime I have a message on the EFIS, this light alerts me. The ESS BUS light is on when I have the Essential Bus powered from it's alternate feed. And as you guessed, EXT POWER just tells me there is a voltage on the input side of the external power jack, so I know if I am connected or not.

Paul
Click to expand...

Sorry to resurrect a dead threat. Paul I have a question on how you powered your ESS shunt annunciator.

I want to know when the switch is closed. That is, there is power via the E buss shunt. however, one cannot simply pull power off either side of the switch as there is always power on both sides of the switch UNLESS the master is off. That doesn't help me in the "left it on" scenario.

One though I had was that in normal switch open operations, the voltage on the ebuss battery side of the switch is about 1v higher than the main buss due to the diode, but when the switch is closed the voltage is the same as power is no longer flowing through the diode. this is independent of the position of the master

Is that what you did?

how did you make it work?

cheers
 
walkman said:
Sorry to resurrect a dead threat. Paul I have a question on how you powered your ESS shunt annunciator.

I want to know when the switch is closed. That is, there is power via the E buss shunt. however, one cannot simply pull power off either side of the switch as there is always power on both sides of the switch UNLESS the master is off. That doesn't help me in the "left it on" scenario.

One though I had was that in normal switch open operations, the voltage on the ebuss battery side of the switch is about 1v higher than the main buss due to the diode, but when the switch is closed the voltage is the same as power is no longer flowing through the diode. this is independent of the position of the master

Is that what you did?

how did you make it work?

cheers
Click to expand...

I know I'm not Paul (if I was I'd be smarter and better looking), but you could always simply use a DPDT switch instead of a SPDT switch. Wire your buses as you normally would to one side of the switch, and then wire power to an annunciator light through the other, independent side of the switch.
 
krw5927 said:
I know I'm not Paul (if I was I'd be smarter and better looking), but you could always simply use a DPDT switch instead of a SPDT switch. Wire your buses as you normally would to one side of the switch, and then wire power to an annunciator light through the other, independent side of the switch.
Click to expand...

Doh!

:eek:

Thanks!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top