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RV-12 Kit delayed?

FrankS

Active Member
As Van would put it "The bear has been poked and the bear has reacted" Below is a quote from the EAA email hotline telling us that approval of new Amatuer kits that meet the 51% percent rule has been put on hold by the FAA

" The moratorium means FAA has temporarily suspended amateur-built aircraft kit evaluations. No new kits will appear on the "51 percent approved list" (http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/kit_listing/Complete_mfr_model_listing/) until the FAA has completed its new process revision for determining the major portion (51 percent).

I checked the FAA list of approved 51% kits as of January 2008 and the RV-12 was not listed.

Does anyone have any insight as to what this really means for the RV-12's kit availability?

Frank
 
Not Required

There is no requirement that a kit be listed to be eligible for amateur-built status. If the kit is not listed, it simply means that the inspector is responsible for determining eligibility.
There are many kits out there that are not listed.
 
Thanks Mel,

I'm guessing then that most inspectors will not have a problem with the standard kit.

However, Van may choose to wait on a quickbuild kit until the rules get clarified.

I'm glad that he was on the commitee.

Hmmmm. Seems to me that "around Valentines day" was the predicted time for test flying the new version.

Maybe the online RVator will bring us some good news by the end of the month.

Thanks again for clarifying the 51% rule.

Frank
 
Hmmmm. Seems to me that "around Valentines day" was the predicted time for test flying the new version.

Maybe the online RVator will bring us some good news by the end of the month.

Thanks again for clarifying the 51% rule.

Frank[/QUOTE]

Looks like they will have good weather for flying in that area for the next three days. Lets hope they take advantage of it and get some test flying done. Of course they said they will be closed on Monday for Presidents day.
 
If I knew then ...

If I knew then, what I know now ... I think I would have bought a Zenith 601 XL quick build kit back in November, 2005, when I first heard about the RV-12 and entered the LSA world of aviation. I would have been out flying this morning in my own plane, taking trips to several different states, enjoying new sights, planning overnight stays and enjoying the beautiful FL weather instead of scheduling a rental for an hour or two ($100-$200) every few weeks and flying in circles. If someone would have told me in Nov. '05 that I would still be sitting on the ground and not even popped my first rivet, or even priced or ordered my RV-12 by Feb. '08, I would have thought they were nuts.

I know I've learned a lot about manufacturing and developing a plane kit plane in the last 2 years. I know of Van's reputation, so I went along for the ride. I'm hoping it'll be worth the wait, I have a feeling it will. Timing for the RV-12 inauguration couldn't be worse for a lot of us. Costs of LSA aircraft are 10-20% percent higher since 2005 ... Rotax 912ULS engine up several thousand dollars ... economy soured ... stock market heading south ...the 51% rule up for revision (delaying a RV-12 quick build till ...) These aren't Van's fault, of course, but I wonder if the RV-12 will move off the shelf as quickly as he had envisioned one or two years ago?

Who knows ... maybe next week this RV-12 forum will light up like a Christmas tree with dozens of new posts and threads ... because of forthcoming information we've all been waiting for. I hope that is the case. But for now, I think I'll call my FBO and schedule an hour of flying time and continue to fly in circles ...
 
Hmmmm. Seems to me that "around Valentines day" was the predicted time for test flying the new version.
Latest prediction in the RVator is January 55th. That a week from tomorrow. Still hope.
 
Lost Opportunities

Van had the correct idea in waiting until all details and flight/structural testing were completed before making the kit available. The prototype A/C flew in a timely fashion, but it appears it was too "Van-like" ... too fast for the Rule. I'm one who has been waiting patiently for the details and final product to appear in order to make a decision on which model to build (my 3rd RV). If there are others like me (and I'm guessing there are), I would also guess Van's sales are down as folks wait to make a decision. I sold my RV-9A a year ago in anticipation of starting a new project, either the RV-12 or RV-8, but with the current economic downturn, I'm thinking I'm lucky I sold when I did and wonder if I really want to invest in a new project right now at all.
 
speedking,

If you start building now (or soon) with luck the economy will be getting back on its feet by the time your -12 is ready to fly!

pittss1s

PS - This waiting for the -12 is driving me crazy. Luckily I have a Pitts S1S for my weekly release.
 
Timing for the RV-12 inauguration couldn't be worse for a lot of us. Costs of LSA aircraft are 10-20% percent higher since 2005 ... Rotax 912ULS engine up several thousand dollars ... economy soured ... stock market heading south ...the 51% rule up for revision (delaying a RV-12 quick build till ...) These aren't Van's fault, of course, but I wonder if the RV-12 will move off the shelf as quickly as he had envisioned one or two years ago?

Personally, I don't see how. In fact, I can't see how it can be priced competitively even with Vans own other kits. The engine situation is actually worse than just a few thousand, in fact the 912ULS has nearly _doubled_ in cost in just the last 2 years, that's pure cost increase with no benifits. It costs as much as a basic O-320 now.
I don't see the dollar's situation getting better for a long time either.

Also, the Rans S19 is out the door, sort of, and it's rock-bottom kit price is around 45 grand for everything, somewhere in there.

Looks like to me the 12 is going to cost as much or nearly as much as the others like the RV4 and even the RV9.

I just don't see how it'll be a good buy considering what it'll have to end up costing. Not unless the engine and etc starts getting cheaper.... which is about as likely as a donkey winning the miss universe pageant.....

Even I'd buy a competitor like the RV9 and just fly it without a medical, when that much money is at stake ;)

LS
 
rv-12 delay

I found this to be interesting while reading GA News. It was reported that the S-19LS relied heavily on CAD/CAM methods and that they never built a prototype ; the first aircraft was production tooled ! They also received SLSA status for the S-19LS in December 2007. This was some forward thinking on their part.
 
I watched my buddy put together a Zenith 601 over the last couple of years. You are better off waiting for the Van's product.
 
Help Me Understand

I watched my buddy put together a Zenith 601 over the last couple of years. You are better off waiting for the Van's product.

So,tell me John, what does a Zenith 601 have to do with a Rans S19?
I must be missing something hear!

Tom
 
Post #5 referenced a Zenith 601. As far as Rans goes, I would be cautious
about buying any aircraft where no prototype was built and test flown. Look at what Van has gone through with the RV-12.
 
about buying any aircraft where no prototype was built and test flown. Look at what Van has gone through with the RV-12.
__________________According to Dan Johnson who wrote the article for GA News QUOTE" My experience flying the S-19 for a pilot report showed excellent flying qualities in all areas. Its conventionally -shaped Hershy Bar wing (no taper) exhibited forgiving qualities and landings were straight forward, suggesting a flight training role for the model." End Quote I have to believe Mr. Johnsons reputation lends an accurate reporting account.
 
about buying any aircraft where no prototype was built and test flown. Look at what Van has gone through with the RV-12.
__________________According to Dan Johnson who wrote the article for GA News QUOTE" My experience flying the S-19 for a pilot report showed excellent flying qualities in all areas. Its conventionally -shaped Hershy Bar wing (no taper) exhibited forgiving qualities and landings were straight forward, suggesting a flight training role for the model." End Quote I have to believe Mr. Johnsons reputation lends an accurate reporting account.

But........do we know if it strictly complies with the LSA standards when it comes to stall speeds?

This has proved to be an involved process for Vans to demonstrate absolute RV-12 compliance with LSA standards. I suspect there are very few totally compliant LSA's on the market. But to Van's credit, he is adamant that his plane be fully compliant......regardless of how many prototypes are required.
 
It had to meet LSA parameters to qualify as S-LSA.

Mel, who does the test flights for S-LSA certification? Are they conducted by factory pilots with factory instrumentation or does the FAA conduct the test in some manner?

Not trying to implicate anyone, just curious.
 
Factory pilots do the initial flight testing. It's up to the inspector as to what to accept. The manufacturer has no reason to "fudge" these numbers. If he does, he WILL be found out and his reputation will go out the window. Rans has a very good reputation, and I can assure you that he doesn't want to loose it.
 
Post #5 referenced a Zenith 601. As far as Rans goes, I would be cautious
about buying any aircraft where no prototype was built and test flown. Look at what Van has gone through with the RV-12.


Just so everyone's clear... it's not like Zenith just drew up some plans and started selling them without building and test-flying the result first. What they mean by "no prototype" is that the first aircraft was fully "production" representative. The difference is as follows

Traditionally, a true prototype is essentially a hand-built, one-off aircraft; there will probably be only one or two examples. While it may generally be similar to the configuration of the final aircraft (and some come closer than others), it's not really the finished design. This was very common, especially before computer tools and all that were readily available; though you still see it used with aircraft (like fighters) that really push boundaries on performance. The prototype approach allows a lot of data to be gathered and different ideas explored before finalizing a design. Some examples would be the YF-22 and YF-23 demonstrators leading to the F-22 production fighter, or the X-32 and X-35 demonstrators leading to the F-35. In each of these cases, the demonstrators have the rough outline of the eventual production plane, but they may lack various features (weapons systems and hardpoints, stealth features, advanced cockpits, etc) because they just want to prove the concept first. Prototypes may often be smaller, carry less fuel, and be less refined than the final aircraft.

In contrast, other aircraft are built right off as production representative. They use the same production line and drawings, and the first aircraft built is (theoretically) identical to the production standard. In practice, there are usually some minor differences--the assembly process might not have been fully production-representative due to supplier issues (see 787 and A380), there might be minor internal differences due to lessons learned or late changes in the design, and internal furnishings like passenger seats are generally left out of the test aircraft. Sometimes (especially with military designs), specialized avionics like radars and weapons systems are left out of some of the test aircraft, and only fitted to the ones dedicated to testing those systems.

Obviously, all of these aircraft have flight test instrumentation fitted, and it is fairly common for the first couple production examples to be heavier than subsequent aircraft as detailed parts are redesigned to save weight. In the case of airliners, the test aircraft are often "cleaned up" after the test program is complete, and sold to customers at a discount to offset the airframe life used, and the higher weight.

I guess what I'm saying is that there's no reason to distrust one airplane over another simply because the first one was built right off to production standard, as long as it has been through a credible flight test program. In this case, where the issue seems to be LSA compliance, Van is using the prototype approach because he doesn't want to commit to a design without ensuring compliance. Zenith may have been more conservative with its design from the start, and felt confident enough to tool up and build it to production standards right off the bat. There's nothing wrong with either approach, and (IMO) as long as both aircraft demonstrate compliance during the manufacturer's test program, the approach used for the first aircraft should not be a factor in selecton.
 
So what are we waiting for?

When I first posted this thread it was a poor choice of words to suggest the 12 might be delayed further by the FAA action cited as it seems to have stirred up old wounds like "why does it take so long?" or "why does it cost so much?"

Perhaps we should remind ourselves why we are waiting for the 12 and not choosing other options such as the Zenair 601, Rans S-19, Sonex, or Sport Cruiser or for that matter another RV like the 9.

For me these are the distinguishing features of the 12.

1. Removeable wings. If you have had the pleasure of belonging to a soaring club you would have observed the Saturday morning ritual of guys helping each other assemble their planes while planning the days flying activities. Its all part of the adventure. Most airports allow sailplane pilots to leave their trailers at the airport for tie down expenses. Translation. You have a hanger at tie down cost - quite a savings. I envision RV-12 squadrons gathering together in a similar fashion.

2. Visibility - Personnaly for sport flying and general sight seeing I prefer the high wings but the visibility in the 12 is awesome and in some ways even better than a high wing. You can't open the door like a cub but hey you can't have everything.

3. Value - I'm trying to avoid the cost hot topic but in terms of value you can at least count on RV's recouping your purchased material costs should you ever decide to sell it. Besides even at $40 to $45 K it's half the cost of a purchased factory SLA.

4. Company reputation - Nothing against Zenair, Rans or Sonex - fine companies all but I still think Vans has an edge over them.

5. Pulled rivets. This is what distinguishes the 12 from all the other RV's. Bucking rivets is not that difficult but it sometimes requires 2 people. Pulled rivets should allow a solo builder to make steady progress when a rivet bucking buddy is not around.

6. Good looks? Did I mention I like the removeable wings? OK Beauty is relative but paint jobs can do wonders and I veiw the RV-12 as a canvas waiting for an artist to shows it hidden beauty.

I agree with most of the comments that a little more info could be propogated by the factory without significant effort on their part but that is just entertainment for the rest of us while waiting for the real deal. One more frustration. February has 29 days this year so we may have to wait an extra day to get the information estimated to come by the end of the month.

I'm not going to make Sun and Fun this year so the earliest I would plan on ordering my kit would be at Oshkosh this summer anyway. With all the unique features mentioned above I still think it will be worth the wait.

Frank
 
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