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How a student in a slugger dang near killed me Wednesday.

DeltaRomeo

DeltaRomeo

doug reeves: unfluencer
Staff member
2/6/08

So, you think it?s easier to keep a nose roller on the runway? I would argue that without the proper technique and skills, a nosewheel equipped aircraft can EASILY leave the runway with a five knot crosswind.

I have a data point.

The wx was great in Texas today, so around 1430 I threw on the shades, put the top down on the Miata and drove out to the airport to take the RV-6 around the patch. Had a wonderful time ? overflew the boy?s school right as they were letting out so he could get some ?street cred? with the other first graders, then out over the lake for some steep turns, then finally back to 52F for some touch and go?s. Viz was clear and a million and the airspace was all mine.

Little crosswind from the left requiring a smidge right rudder in the flare on runway 35. No biggie. Not even close to a biggie.

.5 on the hobbs and taxied into the hangar for shut down. Life is good.

On the drive out I went through a puddle, and since I had washed my car a couple of days prior, I intentionally parked up against the hangar so I could wipe the mud off with a towel after I got done flying. Usually I park about fifteen feet further away out near where the edge of our ramp is.

So, there I am?.wiping the right side of my car down?when I hear a noise. I look up to see a C172 on rollout, only it?s pointed directly at me. Really. I drop the towel and walk ?with conviction? into the hanger while the plane is still about a hundred feet from the car.

It missed, going by where my car is usually parked at an estimated 35 kts. If a full size truck had been parked there the wing would have impacted its windshield.

There were three tire tracks running right by where I usually park?and I think the wing strut would have hit me had I been on the right side of the car wiping it down at that moment.

img_2211.jpg

Lesson learned. Don?t assume that a plane won?t 1) leave the runway 2) cross the grass runway 3) cross the taxiway and 4) go right past where you usually park. I?m parking up against the hangar from now on.

img_2212.jpg

So, the plane in question finally got back on the taxiway about 250? down from me and stopped at the north end of the airport for about 15 minutes (I suspect to clean his seat). He taxied by me, where I was looking for the obviously blown right tire (plane was fine).

I watched where he parked the plane (in front of one of the flight schools), then rode my mini bike over to see if he was OK (he was).

?So, you OK?? (yes)
?Student pilot?? (yes)
?How much time you got?? (about ten hours in that particular plane)

I politely suggested he get some more dual on proper landing technique and suggested he not fly solo again until he addressed those deficiencies. After I got back to my hangar I called the flight school and left them a message to call me. I want them to know that they almost lost a plane, my car and possibly me to a five knot crosswind. My theory is that he put in right rudder to compensate then forced the nosewheel down with the right foot still down). Man, that dang thing was coming right for me. I had visions of a fruit cart getting smashed in a movie chase scene, complete with me diving for the deck. All it needed was some fast banjo music and Steve McQueen in a Ford Mustang.

I think it's OK to put the nosewheel down at this point and stomp on the left pedal...​
img_2218.jpg

path.jpg

I suspect his ground track was something like this. I'm the red 'X'.​

I?m not showing the photos of the flight school (and won?t if they can assure me in writing that this individual will not solo again without more dual training). If they don?t contact me here in the next day or so I?ll contact the feds to see if I can lodge some kind of complaint with the flight school.

[ed. 2/7/8 update: The flight school called me and we're cool. They are going to pull his solo card and give him some more landing instruction. Owner of the school was glad I called, btw. dr]

My point to all this? If you think you?re completely safe on the ground parked a hundred fifty feet off the centerline in the middle of the airport?s property?.you might not be. I'm also going to be MUCH more vigalent at watching planes in the flare while I'm taxiing down to the active and I'd suggest those visiting 52F do the same.

Keep your head on a swivel at all times.

Doug Reeves
www.VansAirForce.net
 
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Perhaps the flight school should publish this guys flight schedule so everyone else at 52F can head for their bunker until he's done :eek: That's a really scary story Doug and I'm glad you, the car and plane are okay. Really sounds as though this guys instructor was a bit premature in letting him solo.

Chris
 
Detours

Federally funded airports have a "No Build" line 300 feet either side of the runway center line. Helps keep airplanes and cars from "mating".:D

Even with this a student almost got my hangar a couple of years ago.
 
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haircut?

Doug,

If you hadn't cut off the ponytail it mighta got trimmed today.

Glad you held short and are OK.
 
Ever since Peter Garrison lost the original Melmoth when he was run over by a Cessna while sitting at the run-up pad, I have been extremely vigilant anytime I am with a hundred yards of an active runway....you just never know!

Glad ya'll still in one piece Krash!

Paul
 
Hangers

While I was finishing up my flight training, my new CFI signed me off to fly into five airports around the north DFW area. Because I had about 10 hours of training out of 52F, I ask him to sign me off to solo there. He said, "no way, those hangers are to close to the runway. I know of one plane lost into those hangers and another one almost lost."
I thought it was kind of silly.... maybe not.
Wes
 
Krash

Krash

Glad you were watching...... What a story! Glad all came out to a good ending.
There are many many tails of student pilot near misses here at Hicks. Makes me glad to be in the 'cheap seats' ,, off the runway.

Bird
 
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I was one of those students sent off to solo too soon. Fortunately I realized it after nothing more than a scary ballooned landing. I went back in search of a different instructor. It took a long time to get my confidence back. After a break from it all, I got lucky and found a gem of a CFI.

Hopefully that event doesn't discourage the student permanently, unless the individual is truly one of those who shouldn't fly. The general aviation community is on a tenuous enough footing already that it's a shame when schools let something like this happen. Good to read you are ok.

Oh yeah, nice Miata!
 
my first solo...

was supposed to be on friday.. but had to cancel a practice flight tuesday because aircraft was down, then weather appears to have me grounded for the morning flight.. (in a few hours).. looks like i'll solo next week..


i have a great CFI, i've heard others say "he errs on the side of caution to often".. i thought he was kinda cautious, but when it comes to flying i'm pretty safety conscious.. anyway, now i thank god he is so cautious!! cause i know he won't let me solo till he KNOWS i can do it!


for anyone concerned, i will solo at Herlong KHEG, in Jacksonville, FL

wish me luck! :D
 
Deja vu all over again...

Doug,
Your adventure with the "slugger" brought up a similar experience I had 43 years ago. I was working the line at an FBO in Santa Barbara. A customer of ours bought a P-51 and, against the advice of the seller, decided to take it for a ride before getting any training. He made it off the ground, flew around for a while and returned for landing. After one hard bounce and go, he touched down and veered off the runway heading straight for the tower, scattering people everywhere. Before he made it to any buildings the gear was ripped off in a drainage ditch. Wish I had been wiping off my car, I was driving a fuel truck. :eek:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=76637&key=0

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
crosswind incident

Soon after receiving my PPL, I was flying the Piper Archer II slugger that I took my check ride in. Nice airplane for a slugger. I was returning to KUIZ, now a subdivision, on RWY 4. I had a crosswind from the left. I had a nice forward slip set up and was coming in as if on rails. It felt nice. To the left of the runway was a stand of trees. I had been told to be careful of turbulence rolling off the the treetops but had never experienced this before. About 10 feet AGL, I found out what that turbulence could do. Before I could react, the left wing was pushed down and I was turning into the trees. RIGHT RUDDER was all I could think and that saved my butt and the aircraft. I aborted and went around. The airport owner nearly had a heart attack and was already headed for the phone while this was going on. On my next approach, I was ready and I needed to be ready. The turbulence was still there. I countered it immediately and made an uneventful landing. I got chewed out for not being ready for the turbulence and rightly so. I always look for turbulence now especially if the crosswind hits hangars or trees before hitting the runway. You just never know when.

Dave Nellis
7A slider
Wings to be shipped Feb. 11
Finishing workshop
 
Its not just students ya need to watch

I noticed a lot of discussion about the "student"; but only a little discussion on watching out anytime you are near an active runway or taxiway. At my home airport, we've had two fatal crashes in the last few years - one just couple of months ago. Both planes; one on takeoff, one landing; departed the runway at an angle at least equal to Doug's incident.

Both crashes involved fires and a total of five died; fortunately no-one on the ground. I'm extremely careful anyway near the runway and listen carefully for landing planes, some of which are very quiet at idle.

If that's not enough, a non-pilot driving an SUV came around a corner and crashed into a friend's plane - the damage significant enough that it took five months to repair. Fortunately in that one, no one was hurt except my buddy's heart - broken about his loving plane.

Maybe a thread on airport ground safety would be useful. Even though, as builders and mechanics, we spend a lot of time at the airport, its easy for us to get used to being at the airport and not thinking how to protect ourselves on the ground, in the hanger and in near the runways, etc. Be especially mindful about passengers and non-flying visitors, they don't know to even think about some of dangers.
 
Although this incident was most likely the student's fault, I would caution against just assuming it was.

A friend of mine who is an RV builder and monitors this forum had the same thing happen to him in his Mooney. He didn't have many hours in the plane and assumed it was his fault. After flying a little longer and gaining more confidence in the airplane it happened again.

Come to find out there was some sort of problem with the steerable nosewheel that was causing the issue. I don't recall the technical details, but he will probably chime in to fill the details.

Glad everyone was OK. I hope the student learns from any mistake he made and continues to enjoy flying for a very long time.
 
My T-hangar faces a field that is between our widely spaced parallel runways. The local banner tow operation used to approach that field from 1000 ft for their banner drops and then pull power and dive bomb the field. If the wind was out of the south, they were pointed right into my open hangar door. I would stop working every time to watch and make sure they were going to pull up and not "come on in."

Why they chose this way to drop their banners is a total mystery to me.

Karl
 
Hey Doug,

A few weeks ago I saw the same airplane from that school flare about 75' high, stall, then recover at about 20' then land tail first (literally on the the tie down ring) with the mains still 2' in the air, taxi back and take off!!!
Your neighbor to the north (Scott) seen the whole thing too...
 
Years ago, from the taxiway I watched a landing plane lose it and leave the runway toward me. I remember trying to figure out whether to stop, gun it, or turn onto the grass. He momentarily caught it, but ground looped in the opposite direction, stopping him before he got too close. Did some damage, but only to his plane. It can be scary out there.

This year someone tried a night landing on a night the lights were down (total redo of the runway lights and new taxiway lights.) Corn fields look much like runways to some people. No damage, at least. You don't HAVE to be a student to create problems. We should all remember that.

Bob Kelly
 
Glad to hear no one was hurt but I think the kid was just trying to exit via on of those high speed taxi-ways! Must have been practicing to land heavy iron at a high-volume airport. :D
 
videobobk said:
Years ago, from the taxiway I watched a landing plane lose it and leave the runway toward me. I remember trying to figure out whether to stop, gun it, or turn onto the grass...
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I think this is a good point. It is a little bit like when you see a jet fighter from your RV. What do you do? Probably doesn't matter much because of the relative speeds.

I don't remember the exact circumstances of the Peter Garrison accident but I normally runup into the wind which means my back is toward the final approach area. Even if I look back there and see someone is headed my way I don't think there is much I could do about it.

A few years ago a C-182 stalled and crashed directly into the roof of a friend's hangar. The airplane ended up resting on top of a boat that was being stored there. If someone had been working inside that boat they probably would have been killed, safe in the hangar and quite far from the takeoff path (further than Doug's hangar is from the runway). A random accident could get any of us.

Now if you happen to see someone headed for you when you are on foot and have something to get behind, like Doug in this case, maybe you could save yourself.
 
Most likely tried to drive it instead of flying it. Had a student here cartwheel a 150 doing something similar.. N704YE. Since then, no students are allowed to do touch and goes without an instructor. It takes some time for the burnt in reaction to drive instead of fly to go away. Some students are turned loose way too early for the proper automatic reactions to be in place.

NTSB Identification: MIA00LA037 .
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, December 01, 1999 in MORRISTOWN, TN
Probable Cause Approval Date: 11/30/2000
Aircraft: Cessna 150M, registration: N704YE
Injuries: 1 Uninjured.
The student pilot was conducting solo touch and go landings, and on his third landing, as he was applying power for the takeoff, the airplane veered left. Despite his application of right rudder the airplane continued off the left edge of the runway, collapsing the nose landing gear, and striking the terrain with the right wingtip, inducing a left 'cartwheel'. The airplane came to rest in the grass on it's nose and left wing, having sustained wing spar and firewall damage.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

The pilot's failure to maintain directional control during the takeoff phase of a touch and go landing, and the subsequent skid off the runway and collapsed nose landing gear during the attempt to abort the takeoff.
 
I have no doubt the student got over his head on this one, but, don't be looking at the winds, 5mph cross isn't that much, but those nasty dust devils can appear out of no where, with the hangers that close to the runway is also a given for nasty swirls on the ground level. At my airport there are many things that can pop up out of nowhere. I was doing a series of touches the other day and on one, I had a problem as soon as I touched, I was to the left, then to the right, I was compensating with full rudder each time, I kept within two feet of center left or right, but man what a ride. I immediately thought, what if it were a low time pilot, he would have been off the runway for sure. Oh and we had 5mph straight down the runway.

There is something I really hate, and that is when the twins do there runup 90degrees to the runway, you see we have two parallel runways and if you are landing on 21L and one of those idiots are getting ready to depart 21R, well I think you know what I'm talking about, that blast(usually at full throttle) is now going right over your approach for the left runway, I usually delay out and land further down the runway, but I find that the blast effects about 30ft up. If you forget this, you are in for a real ride.
 
Those of us who have flown taildraggers understand what rudders are for:p unfortunetly most folks who learn in nose pushing sluggers (of which I own, a C150:eek:) never are taught the rudder dance:D


Glad to see your still fleet of foot Doug
 
Rudder/brake

Crosswinds and students are an interesting mix. Got to learn somewhere. What about this scenerio:

Light crosswind from left side, student drops left wing into wind using right rudder to keep straight down the runway. Touchdown...Opps, right foot on brake also...wind plus brake plus right rudder pushing RIGHT and still trying to get nose on the ground... everything happening R E A L fast for a student and Doug nearly gets to witness a crime scene.

I am just thankful there was no accident and Doug is fine.

Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO
 
Bill Ervin said:
Those of us who have flown taildraggers understand what rudders are for:p unfortunetly most folks who learn in nose pushing sluggers (of which I own, a C150:eek:) never are taught the rudder dance:D
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Interestingly, this is one area where I am glad to have learned to fly in a LSA - most of the designs require a bit of rudder; certainly more than a Cessna. We say that flying a LSA "keeps you honest" - you can't get lazy with your feet, particularly if there's winds above about 5kt.

I laughed like crazy the first time I landed a 172 - it was so easy!

TODR
 
Update from flight school...

2/7/8 update:

The flight school called me and we're cool. They are going to pull his solo card until an instructor gives him some more landing instruction. Owner of the school was glad I called, btw.

b,
dr
 
I can't say enough good things about your approach here, Doug. If we all took more responsibility for the unsafe things we see in aviation, there'd be (a) a lot more pilots alive today and (b) a lot better image of general aviation.

Great job!
 
Vigilance does include on the ground as others have said...

Last summer, I was in the runup area for 27, which is on the south side of the runway. I was moving into the hold short area, and I knew that there was an experimental somewhere in the pattern, a Velocity I believe. I didn't see it, but just before I was going to key the mike to request takeoff clearance, the experimental called the tower saying he was having oil pressure problems (or something, I don't recall exactly), and was going to land immediately. I then saw him on right downwind, really moving fast. I watched him turn base, still going something like 120+ knots. He overshot the turn to final, and was all over the place - up/down, right/left. Then I noticed he was sort of aiming right for me. I was pointing north, and ran the engine up to maybe 2000 rpm, preparing to get the heck out of the way should it be necessary. Anyway, he got lined up again, but came over the threshold really fast, incredibly fast. He floated most of the way down the 5000' runway, and ended up going off the end. Probably nothing damaged, but a reminder to keep the eyes swiveling. I heard later it was a first flight, but don't have confirmation.
 
Bill Ervin said:
Those of us who have flown taildraggers understand what rudders are for:p unfortunetly most folks who learn in nose pushing sluggers (of which I own, a C150:eek:) never are taught the rudder dance:D


Glad to see your still fleet of foot Doug
Click to expand...

Bill,

I think it's more CFI related than airplane related. I have a great CFI that I still fly with on occasion. She makes me sing the riff to "Sunshine of Your Love" while I wiggle my pedals. I do it ever time I land. Some of my pax think it's a bit odd, but it does remind me about those rectangular pieces of metal on the floor.
 
I know how to use a rudder. I know how to land in a crosswind. I know what happens in uncoordinated flight. I know how to get out of a spin, all using the rudder.

I've never flown a taildragger in my life.

I rather doubt I'm an exception, and I would discourage the continued assertion that tailwheel pilots are better pilots, which, the more I hear it, the more elitist it sounds.

Please?
 
I don't know that tailwheelers are better pilots, but I'll guarantee that when you have your first taildragger flight you'll be struck by how lazy your feet have become.
 
Bob Collins said:
I know how to use a rudder. I know how to land in a crosswind. I know what happens in uncoordinated flight. I know how to get out of a spin, all using the rudder.

I've never flown a taildragger in my life.

I rather doubt I'm an exception, and I would discourage the continued assertion that tailwheel pilots are better pilots, which, the more I hear it, the more elitist it sounds.

Please?
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Bob, I don't think knowing how to safely and consistently land a taildragger necessarily makes one a better pilot than one who only has experience safely and consistently landing a tri-gear plane, but there is no doubt the taildragger pilot has a skill set the tri-gear pilot doesn't yet possess.

Kinda hard to grasp until you've made your first couple of taildragger crosswind landings (and take-offs!). :D
 
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The nose gear pilot uses his skill required to fly his plane. The tail dragger pilot uses the skill required to fly his plane. The two skill sets may not be the same.

In this case a nosegear pilot almost picked Doug off because HE didn't know how to use the rudder, not because he was a nosegear pilot. He was not properly trained, not properly skilled and, I'm sorry, the subtext of the portion of the thread (as with most threads about nosegear vs. trigear) is a tiring refrain.

The inference is just the kind of hubris that I normally expect to find at the very beginning of the accident chain of many pilots.

By the way, any nose gear pilot who says he has no use for the rudder, is not flying his nose gear plane correctly, either.
 
Bob Collins said:
The nose gear pilot uses his skill required to fly his plane. The tail dragger pilot uses the skill required to fly his plane. The two skill sets may not be the same.

In this case a nosegear pilot almost picked Doug off because HE didn't know how to use the rudder, not because he was a nosegear pilot. He was not properly trained, not properly skilled and, I'm sorry, the subtext of the portion of the thread (as with most threads about nosegear vs. trigear) is a tiring refrain.

The inference is just the kind of hubris that I normally expect to find at the very beginning of the accident chain of many pilots.

By the way, any nose gear pilot who says he has no use for the rudder, is not flying his nose gear plane correctly, either.
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Hmmm. My experience and observation is that taxiing an RV trike in gusty winds takes more rudder activity than taxiing a lockable tailwheel RV. Once moving on a takeoff roll, the opposite will become true. The weather vane effect is very real without a steerable third wheel. In crosswinds of more than around 15 to 20 knots, it is not possible to taxi an RV trike without using brakes, as the rudder runs out of authority.

Another interesting observation is how one-way the sniping about tailwheel vs trike is. Some psychologist can figure that out someday.
 
HIJACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gentlemen:

Someone squawk code 7500 immediately.

There is a whole section for the tail-nose discussion.
 
hokey smoke!

scary story-so glad eveything is OK.

Now maybe I don't mind being around the back at AHN!
 
Let's End This

Let me put an end to this, runways are for beauty queens, real pilots land on helipads, didn't all you guys already know this??? :D :D :D
 
the_other_dougreeves said:
Interestingly, this is one area where I am glad to have learned to fly in a LSA - most of the designs require a bit of rudder; certainly more than a Cessna. We say that flying a LSA "keeps you honest" - you can't get lazy with your feet, particularly if there's winds above about 5kt.

I laughed like crazy the first time I landed a 172 - it was so easy!
Click to expand...


Cessna 172's (with 180hp) are GREAT for learning the use of rudder!

Just have the engine go to idle, at rotation time. With the plane making a bee-line for the right side runway lights; instantaneous "left" rudder is of quick importance! :D

I confess. I did this once. Was flying from the right seat for the three touch and goes. As I looked past the left seat guy at the airspeed indicator, I instinctively pulled back on the "yoke" with my left hand to rotate. Only..............this time (being in the right seat), my left hand was on the throttle. Instant lack of slipstream, torque, whatever; certainly had it's effect since right pedal was no longer required. :)

Will never do that again. :eek:

L.Adamson
 
Doug,

Don't worry. If that student has 10 hours, one of the Regional airlines will be snapping him up real soon and he'll be off flying a CRJ-900 soon.

Mark
 
Doug, I'm glad your Okay. Make me feel fortunate I was only a Firefighter all my life, and didn't have to work in a dangerous place like 52 F ;):D
 
Lazy feet

s10sakota said:
Doug,

Don't worry. If that student has 10 hours, one of the Regional airlines will be snapping him up real soon and he'll be off flying a CRJ-900 soon.

Mark
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I make a living teaching these kids to fly CRJ's. It isn't uncommon to have to teach them what the rudder pedals are for. And they supposedly have a multiengine rating and a commercial. Makes you wonder who is doing the check rides. BTW they have 250 hours not 10, like that matters.
 
Landing technique is the key!

Hey Guys, Don't you all agree that landing TECHNIQUE is the key here. I found out that you MUST fly correctly in a malfunctioning C172. I was making a crosswind landing at Watsonville Ca. and I forward slipped in and touched upwind tire first but wasn't vigilant about being sure to bring the nose down on centerline. The damper on the nose gear was toast and the thing started to shimmy so hard I thought it might fall off. (No trouble in the takeoff roll BTW) I was pointed SLIGHTLY right and almost lost it off the right side. I was so upset I re-entered the pattern after a full stop and ran that play until I got it right. The nose wheel didn't shimmy every time, only if you set down with a slight crab. I put it in for service when I returned home and found it was squawk that was mentioned several times. There can be liberties taken in several areas poth pilot an ground crew. This wouldn't happen with your own RV of course, but I always make sure I can at least LOOK at the final when running up. (My CFI was the one that insisted on this) IMO he was a good instructor.
Bill Jepson
 
Bob Collins said:
I know how to use a rudder. I know how to land in a crosswind. I know what happens in uncoordinated flight. I know how to get out of a spin, all using the rudder.

I've never flown a taildragger in my life.

I rather doubt I'm an exception, and I would discourage the continued assertion that tailwheel pilots are better pilots, which, the more I hear it, the more elitist it sounds.

Please?
Click to expand...

Right on my nose wheel flying brother!!
 
YUP

gbrasch said:
Let me put an end to this, runways are for beauty queens, real pilots land on helipads, didn't all you guys already know this??? :D :D :D
Click to expand...
I find it hard to disagree.. but I'd add on "land on a dolly on the helipad in the rain and snow at night with a slingload and an engine out......"
:D
 
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