EGG Service OK ++

There have been tell tale oil tracks on the windshield of late and it was traced to the gear reduction unit - as far as I could tell - so the PSRU was removed and shipped to Florida last week. However, it turns out some of the evidence came from a recently overhauled prop, some came from a front seal leak and some from excess of grease used installing the spline drive shaft between the engine and drive unit.

The EGG factory is replacing the front drive shaft because it has production scratches allowing oil to travel under the VITON seal. It wasn't much of a leak but enough to mess things up a bit. (Lycoming guys know of what I speak) The spline shaft drive will be lubricated with anti seize instead of grease (my screw up) and the prop is about finished slinging grease so things ought to be hokey dory very soon once again.

Two thirds of the problem self induced, one third tiny scratches not apparent to normal vision.

Pleased to report good service from the EGG factory.

I'll second that! I sent my Gen 2 PSRU back for the upgrade, and the new Gen 3 showed up on my doorstep 4 business days later! I've been very satisfied with Jan.

Oh?

Are Lycomings supposed to leak?...I must have missed that page in the manual...Oh no!...Maybe its supposed to leak but mine doesn't.

What SHALL I do...sky is falling...along with the stock market..

Sorry couldn't resist

Frank

Lycomings never leak, they are just marking their territory.

leak

The CH-47 guys always said... if it's not leaking, its empty!

Best
Brian

Real details

Jan has produced supposedly over 500 engines. Only a handful are flying. Why? Broken promises... broken parts???

Read some of the horror stories written by poor unsuspecting Egg customers who had no idea of what they got themselves into until way after the fact. I know of several. Brian Meyette has written abundantly about his battles with Jan. He may never fly. Brian is not an isolated case just the most outspoken of the angry Egg customers. When you have one temperamental guy to go to for tech support, how do you work through these difficult issues without blowing a gasket? Most never have. I hear great things about Subie engines from the few flying ones.

I would never personally consider buying an Egg engine unless these criteria are met:

1. The firewall forward package would have to be "complete" and not need hundreds or thousands of hours of refinement to get working. There would be no need to engineer ways around existing cooling and psru issues. "Complete" in my world is ready to bolt on and go. I have no interest in beginning Egg Engineering 101 the day my FWF arrives with specs and updates changing by the moment and Jan's whim.

2. Jan would have to pick an engine (any engine) and produce it for at least three years with all working components. (Duh)

3. The failure rate after those 3 years would have to be within acceptable levels. Very minimal (Duh)

The current flyby night approach is too sloppy for my taste. Smooth consistent power is what I want. Claims about auto engines being lighter and faster are a joke. Auto engines are not lighter or faster (ask van's, I did). Jan's continual redesign has added years and major additional expenses to several projects that I know of and caused other Egg customers to give up scrap Jan?s engine and then install a Lycoming. What a waste of time energy effort and $40k.

Personally, I have nothing against Jan. The way he does business is ruining his credibility and losing his customer base rapidly. I clearly see Jan's business eroding. What a shame and a waste of talent.

I have one of 25 STI engines that Jan sold. To call it a firewall forward product turned in to a sad joke, as it was truly half baked when yanked from the oven and shipped out.

That being said, I knew I was taking my chances when I opted for a "new" engine package that had not been in use. To be honest, there have been many times that I had to admit to myself that I may have made a large and very expensive mistake and truly wished I had just gone with a tried and true Lycasaurus.

I destroyed two of the Gen 2 gearboxes and was grounded for a few months waiting for the new Gen 3 gearbox to get produced. This was very frustrating to deal with during a time when I really wanted to be flying and testing the rest of the airplane. To Jan's credit, he did send me a replacement Gen 2 gearbox at no charge after the first one failed. When the second one failed in the same manner I think it became obvious that the Gen 2 gear box was not going to put up with the power output of the engine I have. At first it was thought that engine to gearbox alignment problems may have caused the first failure. Not so with the second one...

But, I must say, in the end I have a hot rod RV7A and it does a rather nice job of setting my hair on fire when I close the waste gate. It does seem to be working out to be a very nice engine to fly behind and it looks like I will be able to achieve my goal of having IO360 performance, or better, with a smooth running modern power plant. No I am not quite there yet, but I can see it from here

As long as these beefier gearboxes hold up I think things will go well for Jan's business. I have more reasons than most of his customers to be bitter and angry. I guess I just think life is too short for that. Getting my engine package to work was more challenging than I ever dreamed it would be, but then again so ws building the airplane!

I may not like all of Jan's business practices, but in the end he does seem to try to help his customers. When ever I have called with problems he has answered the call and done what he could do to correct things.

I suspect Jan would admit that the batch of STI engines turned in to a real nightmare for his customers and for him. Too bad, as these engines have so much potential for achieving a decent power to weight ratio. When you start out with a factory stock engine that produces 2 HP per cubic inch in the car, the potential is certainly there. I think the package could be lightened up considerably and over time I hope to do just that.

I think his later engine packages are much more of a firewall forward product, simpler and easier to install. They still require considerable extra cowling work to prevent cooling issues, the electrical system needs extra attention, etc., ditto for the fuel system, but most of the reports I hear about the newer engine packages are positive.

Anyone considering such an endeavor needs to be honest with themselves about their own mechanical aptitude and abilities and realize that there are not thousands of them flying so support is only available from Jan's little engine factory and the other folks that have taken the plunge and made it work.

Anyway, I had to chime in here to let you all know that another one of the engines from the STI batch is flying, (that makes 2 of us now) and there are more to come. As long as that gear box holds up, I can say I am glad I have the Subaru up front.

Randy C

LifeofReiley said:

Personally, I have nothing against Jan. The way he does business is ruining his credibility and losing his customer base rapidly. I clearly see Jan's business eroding. What a shame and a waste of talent.

Click to expand...

I understand your concerns regarding the relative merits of the Egg package vs Lyco-Continoming, but you inject a great deal of personal observations about Jan, especially having never done business with him (I assume, since you say you would never purchase one of his engines).

Sharing your personal "requirements" is the kind of opinion that others might find helpful when making their own decisions. But then you start adding adjectives such as "fly-by-night," "tempermental" and "sloppy."

I'll ask you personally, have you ever been to Jan's build facility in Florida? Spoken to him personally? Conducted business with him personally?

You began your post by asking whether your perception about the number of Eggenfellner engines flying is due to "broken promises" or "broken parts." This is called "begging the question." You're asking your reader to assume the premise of a problem. Do you know exactly how many engines are flying? You state a "handful." Have you spoken to all those that aren't flying? Do you know why they aren't? Do you know how many of those flying are having problems related to quality/design/engineering/poor installation/bad maintenance/(add your own issue HERE)?

Let me ask you another question, if someone had used the same adjectives you've used to describe Jan in a post describing you, would you take it personally? BTW, adding at the end of your post you have nothing personal against Jan is a bit disengenuous after you just bashed him personally.

Please, please, please people, if this forum is to continue to be the valuable resource it has become for so many we must police ourselves. If you don't have first-hand knowledge of an issue how can you make value judgements?

Ever play the pass-it-along game? One person whispers in another's ear; the second whispers in the third's, and so on, and so on. After 20 or so people the message comes back to the person who started it and -- SURPRISE -- it no longer resembles the original! This first time we played this game (I think it was grade school for me) we were supposed to learn the potential for problems with passing along another's message.

Let those that have the first-hand knowledge post their experience. If you have questions ask. If someone else's experience helps you make a decision that's wonderful. If you think the data can help someone else, then direct them to the posts from THOSE WITH THE FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE.

By all means, share your opinion, that's what this forum is all about. But if you're gonna engage in personal attacks you should do so based on your own experience, not someone else's. And above all, be honest, with others as well as yourself -- don't camouflage your attack with platitudes.

Regards,

Mark

personal experience

Mark said he wanted to see personal, first-hand experience. I can provide plenty of that. As Darrell mentioned, I have written extensively about my experiences with my Eggenfellner STi engine on my builder's web site. See http://brian76.mystarband.net/engine.htm for all the details.

The Eggenfellner STi experience has been a nightmare from the beginning. Jan has quite a tendency to jump onto new things without thinking them through thoroughly. The STi was an extreme example of that. Nearly everything but the block and heads have had to be swapped out, at least once. See here:
http://brian76.mystarband.net/engineMay07.htm#may29
and here:
http://brian76.mystarband.net/engineJun07.htm#jun5
for summaries of the problems.

The biggest problem is that, while Eggenfellner at least stood behind the problems at first, once the PSRU problems became evident, he became more and more surly, unhelpful, and uncooperative about solving the remaining problems. This began in May, '07.

One of my favorite issues (and there are plenty to pick from) is how Eggenfellner inexplicably abandoned the wastegate control that was supposedly on the engines when we bought them. By the time we got the engines, the original wastegate control had been abandoned, with no replacement. We've been abandoned to come up with a wastegate control on our own.

Another favorite is how we found out the STi was overspeeding the supercharger (beyond the manufacturer's specs) even with the Gen 2 PSRU, and even more so with the Gen 3 PSRU. Eggenfellner provided no support, and only surliness, in response to that problem. When an STi owner in Australia decided to look into getting our own larger supercharger pulley to resolve the problem, Eggenfellner even refused to provide any info on where the SC pulley came from, or even how it was attached to the SC.

Jan has also been especially surly, rude, and uncooperative with a couple of the other STi owners. I can understand him being rude to me, as I've publicized a lot of this stuff, but it's even more irritating when he's rude and unhelpful to these other guys. He forced one STi owner to remove his installed engine and ship it ot him for the upgrades, as he said he didn't trust that person to do the work right. He's been especially rude to another customer who has only asked simple questions in the most deferential and polite manner possible. On his list just last week, he was rude and arrogant to that person yet again. The customer simply asked why the list of additional small parts needed for the Gen 3 PSRU hadn't been sent out ahead of time, instead of the usual Eggenfellner method of casually dropping it on everyine at the last mnute, after the PSRUs had already been shipped. Eggenfellner's snotty reply included ""If you are generally an unhappy person, we do not want to hear from you ".

Eggenfellner also seems to have quite a problem accepting responsibility for things. Everything is always the customer's fault.

I could go on and on and on about the problems, but if you want details, see the links. My awful choice of Eggenfellner engine has added 2-3 years to my project time. My wife keeps asking me to just trash the STi and get a Lycoming. One STi customer actually did that - he tossed the Eggenfellner and put in a Lycoming. But not many people can afford to just write off $40K. When I bought this engine, I was under the impression that it was a complete working FWF that could be just bolted onto the firewall and run. Nothing could have further from reality.

As Darrell wrote, one big thing Eggenfellner needs to do is pick a package , stick with it, and refine it, not keep flitting around and jumping onto every new bandwagon that comes along. It appears that he MAY be doing that now with the H6 engines.

Summary - i deeply regret buying Eggenfellner, because of Jan's attitude problems as much as the physical problems, and I certainly can't recommend it to anyone.

Mark said he wanted to see personal, first-hand experience. I can provide plenty of that. As Darrell mentioned, I have written extensively about my experiences with my Eggenfellner STi engine on my builder's web site. See http://brian76.mystarband.net/engine.htm for all the details.

Click to expand...

Brian,

I followed your links and read your narrative about the Egg saga.

Wow........

I really, really hate to hear of a fellow builder dealing with issues like you detail on your site. Jim Skala is in our local group so I have been following his Egg travails. Yep, Jim is now a Lycoming customer and I fear he will take a huge bath on the Subie sitting in the corner of his shop.

Thanks for sharing your insight on a difficult situation. I hope for all Eggenfellner customers that satisfactory resolutions can be reached...I guess time will tell.

Randy said:

....Anyway, I had to chime in here to let you all know that another one of the engines from the STI batch is flying, (that makes 2 of us now) and there are more to come. As long as that gear box holds up, I can say I am glad I have the Subaru up front.

Randy C

Click to expand...

Actually, Randy, I believe 3 sti's have flown. Your's, Ziggy's and Robert Paisley. Seems to me, it was the sti in Robert's 7 that allowed him to fly just a bit faster than Dan Checkoway. The engine certainly has the potential to produce power as was demonstrated by that flight. It is a credit to you that you have gotten the thing in the air. Same for Ziggy who has been flying much longer. Robert Paisley does not need any kudos, he's on a different planet when it comes to doing this stuff.

All that being said, the sti guys have had major problems and I'm not sure there is much anyone can do about it but press forward. The sti trip was a mistake for the developer and the customer from the git go. The money was spent putting the engines together and there is no way the factory can take them back and make everyone happy. The money is in the engines and like the stock market, real estate and a zillion other investments today, it is gone.

Same applies to GEN1 and GEN2 (which probably are OK for the 2.5 NA engine). A ton of money was lost trying to make the belt drive work for the turbo H6, and then more yet developing GEN3 after that failure.

My gut feeling is GEN3 is still being sold at below cost. The machining of the case is no small item as are labor and the parts to put it together. I am not happy about having to pay for a different PSRU but I do understand the economic realities of the situation. Eggenfellner is not becoming wealthy doing what he does. The last time I visited his little company, he was sleeping in the motor home in the hangar with his dog. He works at least 16 hours a day on his passion and sometimes it is one step forward and two back ward, but generally the movement is forward. Anyone who has not figured that out by now has had his head under a rock.

This is an experimental effort and not for everyone. I continue to believe the engines are solid and there is progress being made solving problems. Abandoning the Van's cowl in favor of one designed to accommodate the cooling system is part of that progress. Sure there are differing opinions about what is best with regard to cooling, but what is happening is definitely an improvement. The ECU is getting more and more simple as is prop control.

Knowing all that I know concerning this effort so far, I would not want a repeat of what's happened. BUT I do feel the product is maturing and those diving in now will have smoother sailing in the future. For those wanting to do something different, it can fun and interesting. And I do love flying behind this engine even though mine a long way from perfect. I do have an affinity for the smooth running Merlins of WWII and this is a lot closer than flying behind the venerable Lycoming.

Problems with Eggenfellner Engines:Brian Myette

Summary - i deeply regret buying Eggenfellner, because of Jan's attitude problems as much as the physical problems, and I certainly can't recommend it to anyone.

Let's be a little fairer here. I followed Brian's website early on as I am building an RV 7A with a H-6 purchased from Jan. At least some of Brian Myette's problems have IMHO come from a "roll-your-own" approach. Brian eschewed the EXP BUS recommended by Eggenfellner to make his own electrical system. He did not follow the factory recommended approach to the waste gate on the STI engine. If you take in the entire website, Brian has run in's with the guy that sold him a metal building, various partners he worked with, an avionic's company, the airport where he wanted to base his plane, all documented on his website.

I know Gary Newsted has visited Brian personally to help work out some of the problems. This was before Gary was associated with Eggenfellner but I think Jan has worked to solve some of the problems but as a small business owner, some people are impossible to please. Going on the internet to vent problems may not be the best way to achieve better service.

The STI is a very challenging application. From the previous posts, there are three flying out of 25 which is better than 10% flying. That is the average of experimental aircraft 1 in 10 flies. I think the builder is the largest factor in any application achieving success. I am reminded by the quote of Bill Romanaski, NFL linebacker with two superbowl rings, who said "when you point a finger, there are three finger pointing back at you".

STeve A
RV 7A H-6
Painting Fairings
Lafayette, La.

Appalled

One does not need to know Eggenfellner personally or be a customer to form the opinion that people have been very badly dealt with.
I looked at the Eggenfellner "firewall forward" option, attracted by the idea of an elegant alternative to a Lycoming. And that is what the option was presented as - a "firewall forward" bolt-on alternative to the Lycoming.
It is an utterly inadequate response to the problems experienced by Brian and others to say that only one in ten experimental aircraft flies, or that this is an experimental effort and not for everyone. The thing was sold as a firewall forward alternative to a Lycoming at a comparable price. Ten out of ten Lycoming installations fly! How many people would have written that cheque if they had known that only "one in ten" would be flying and that after years of work and modifications? Some certainly, but certainly not those who were sold Eggenfellner (or like me considered it) as a "firewall forward" install option to a Lycoming.
I hope Brian and others in his boat have the will and ability to recover from this disaster and realize the completion of their aircraft.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada
RV-6A slow-build with a Lycoming clone

Problem with context Bill?

C-GRVT said:

One does not need to know Eggenfellner personally or be a customer to form the opinion that people have been very badly dealt with.
I looked at the Eggenfellner "firewall forward" option, attracted by the idea of an elegant alternative to a Lycoming. And that is what the option was presented as - a "firewall forward" bolt-on alternative to the Lycoming.
It is an utterly inadequate response to the problems experienced by Brian and others to say that only one in ten experimental aircraft flies, or that this is an experimental effort and not for everyone. The thing was sold as a firewall forward alternative to a Lycoming at a comparable price. Ten out of ten Lycoming installations fly! How many people would have written that cheque if they had known that only "one in ten" would be flying and that after years of work and modifications? Some certainly, but certainly not those who were sold Eggenfellner (or like me considered it) as a "firewall forward" install option to a Lycoming.
I hope Brian and others in his boat have the will and ability to recover from this disaster and realize the completion of their aircraft.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada
RV-6A slow-build with a Lycoming clone

Click to expand...

Bill you should be aware that by far the greatest number of Eggenfellners customers is HAPPY with their package. The STI engine was a problem for our type of use, and it is sad that there have been problems, that doesn't mean that every one of them might not eventually fly. I have worked on RVs with Egg engines and with certified engines and my opinion is that the Egg package is MORE complete than the typical certified package. You can buy a FWF package from Vans that includes wiring and plumbing, but you have to pay for it. There are more things available for a Lyc too as would be EXPECTED. A good friend recently flew his 2.5 Egg Subaru RV-9 and he is very happy with it. Any time you deviate from standard you must be ready to do some work to make the different combination work, be it a certified engine or a conversion. If you wanted to put a Continential IO-360 in your RV for instance you would be completely on your own, and would have to make far more parts yourself than an Eggenfellner customer. That is on a CERTIFIED engine. If you make a change of any kind you must be ready to do some of the work yourself. The STI contingent at Eggenfellner were generally beating down the door to get that engine. That doesn't excuse any poor after the sale service on Jans part but it does explain some of the problems. These guys KNEW they were the bleeding edge first experimental examples. When the configuration didn't work well Egg stopped selling it, as they should have. The total sales of the STI is less than 4% of the EGG sales! This isn't like NSI where ALL the customers had problems. Or Innodyne where only one ever flew! There are lots of happy Egg customers. If you bought that Conti IO-360 and asked the distributor to take it back they would laugh in your face. I find it sad that people that get into a tough position because they made a choice then want everything made good by someone who didn't promise that to begin with. Let's state this plainly: If you are not capable of doing anything but following the instructions in the kit, that is you aren't an engineer, or designer, or at least a good mechanic you should not use ANY engine other than that recomended by the kit manufacturer, period. The claim made by ANY manufacturer including Vans that you can build a flying airplane is just that. Just because you can build one from the supplied materials doesn't mean you will, you have to make that happen yourself. The comment that you quoted is TRUE, about 1 in 10 kits ever flies. That is reguardless of the engine chosen. The claim of a FWF system doesn't make it a silver bullet, it won't install itself. I truly hope your own install is easy and you enjoy flying your Lyc powered plane. That is really why were doing this after all. Many Eggenfellner customers are doing the same thing!
Bill Jepson

No complaints!

I'm sure I'll be flamed for this, but a lot of y'all need to calm down. Especially those who have never dealt with Jan or his company.

I have an H-6 on the front of my -7. The installation was as advertised. I hung the thing in one evening, and had no trouble following the step by step guide to complete the electrical and plumbing. First engine start was as easy and smooth as starting my car. At this point, the cooling solution is well documented on the yahoo group and couldn't possibly be any more difficult than getting baffles right. While there were some delays getting the Gen 3 gearbox delivered, I'm not about to complain about it... I've been building for 6 years, I'm not in a hurry. More importantly, every time I've had a question or concern, I've received a personal response either by email or phone very promptly. I'm a very satisfied Eggenfellner customer.

Paul

If I might.....

Folks, this is a tough thread for a moderator. On the one hand, people are expressing their honest opinions and (I believe) experiences. On the other hand, there is an awful lot of vitriol being expended. There is a rule against vendor bashing on the forums (which does not, I believe, mean that no bad thing can ever be expressed, or many, many threads would have been killed that have been allowed to continue), and unfortunately, this one has gone beyond simply bashing a vendor, it is personally bashing a man.

I have no dog whatsoever in this fight - I am a plain-jane Lyclone guy. I can tell from the comments here, and the many other notes I have read over the past several years that people are either hot or cold on Jan. And I completely believe both the bad and the good. I was impressed several weeks ago when the man signed on to the forums and was willing to post some in person. If I were him, after reading this thread, I'd never step foot on VAF again - which is too bad. I believe that we all have lessons to learn from both successes and failures.

This thread was started as a compliment to a good job, and that voice has been pretty much shouted down by opposing views. I see little else to gain by keeping it open except for those who wish to pile on, so I am going to close it. If someone thinks that they have something new and original to contribute, they can always write a moderator and see if they can convince someone that it is an appropriate addition to the common knowledge - but I think the appropriate testimonies - on both sides - are now out there.

Paul