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Double the Fun!

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
Two beautiful weather days...Two lunch destinations...Two planes! The only thing that would have made it better was if Louise was here, so we could have filled both seats each time?.but you know, you can?t pass up opportunity! It?s been years since I had two planes at my immediate disposal ? way back when I had a J-3 to complement my Yankee ? and since Louise?s -6 is scheduled to go back to DC next weekend, I figured that this was a good time to trade off and do some comparisons.

Saturday was a trip to Llano for BBQ, and Weathermeister was calling for westerly winds increasing with altitude. The trip out was called ?best? at 4500, and showed a time of 1:15, while the trip back was pegged at ?as high as you want to go!? and promised to be a lot quicker! Since next weekend will see me flying the -6 for the better part of the day, I figured that the Valkyrie needed to stretch it?s legs, so it got the nod. Sure enough, the winds were as promised, and 4500 looked like a good altitude to just get over a bank of clouds that stretched from about 30 miles west of Houston to just east of Austin. The ceilings below were better than 1,000, and there were breaks, but I skimmed over the tops in smooth air and sunshine, looking for the clearing line that the XM promised. Clear at each end and some clouds in between ? perfect cross-country conditions!

I wasn?t sure how many folks I?d find out at Llano, but I heard Jay Pratt call in ?five miles out? while I was about twice that, so I knew that it would at least be him, Carol, and I. It turned out to be far better than that! Jay had heard that Steve Formhals was out of his body cast and a friend was going to give him a lift in his -9A, so it kind of turned out to be a celebration. I didn?t count airplanes, but we filled both vans that the restaurant keeps at the airport. Cooper?s BBQ filled us up, and it was great, as always, to re-connect with folks that have been busy with the holidays. Steve was more than willing to talk about the loss of his -8, and I will never forget his recommendation to ?always snug those seat belts up just before take-off?... dang right I will!

The trip back was indeed nice, with the EFIS showing winds (mostly tail!) of up to 50 knots as I climbed to 9.5K. The Hill Country was zipping by at a pretty nice clip, and the ground speed in excess of 200 knots almost all the way made for a quick return. I was glad for that, since I had a shot list of things I needed to do to ?Mikey? before calling it a day. A new battery, fixing the passenger PTT, an intermittent indicator for the Landing light ? a nice afternoon spent at the airport is gold in my book. (Oh, the new battery was ?identical? to the old one, a sealed ?Werker? 3Ah, which I chose so that it would slip right in. Guess what ? they?ve made it about 1/16? taller since the last one, so I ended up having to slightly modify the battery box cover after all?.sigh?.and I could have gotten an Odyssey!). I finished up about 4:30, and was ready to quit for the day when I looked at Mikey and could just see him with a dejected look that said ?don?t I get to fly today? You took the Val out?? OK, a couple of turns around the patch to check?ahhh, what was it I needed to check? Oh yea, wanted to test that new battery, and see if the % Power was working right! I made a nice landing for a change, probably because I didn?t bother to think about it.

Sunday was a short flying day ? Brenham, is only 34 minutes away, and I wanted to get just a little bit of cruise time in Mikey before the long trip to get used to the Dynon functionality. This worked out well as I practiced finding the data on various pages and setting up instrument approaches on the radios and HSI. It never hurts to be prepared! Another nice landing at Brenham had me convinced that maybe I?d figured this -6 thing out, and lunch was another good one with several folks from the day before and new faces as well. As usual, a second shift of RV?s was arriving as we were leaving ? if you go by ramp count alone, that restaurant has GOT to be a big success. A third good landing back at home base was enough to convince me that I CAN do it if I pay a little attention. Of course, the Val was sitting there quietly(and accusingly) in the hangar, so before the afternoon was out, a trip to Winnie for gas and a few rolls and loops was in order to keep peace in the family. Never get on the bad side of a Norse demi-god....;)

In comparing the two airplanes, the most significant difference in my mind is in the way they land. Both are fine, but do require tailoring your technique. It?s been said many times that the -8 is a wheel-landing airplane, and the view from the front seat makes this incredibly easy to do. ?Level? feels level, and you touch down with good forward visibility, add a touch of forward stick on the first contact, pull off a little power and you?re down. Once you?ve gotten the feel of it, braking with the tail in the air is not that difficult of you need to make an early turnoff. I?ll admit that I prefer wheel landings in most tail draggers to three-pointers (unless it is a Cub on the grass!), so that is what I have been working on in the -6 as well. Today I realized that what makes it a little more challenging, at least for me, is a lower eye height from the cockpit, resulting in less forward view to see when you are down. It is easier to ?arrive? before you expect it, leading to a bounce or skip, and since you still have flying speed, it can get difficult to plant. With new cushions in the airplane, I found my head to be higher (essentially touching the canopy with the seatback forward), and this gave me a much better perspective. I used this height for a few landings to get some benchmarks, and then reclined the seat a bit to give myself more cranium-to-canopy clearance, but was able to use the same benchmarks to make better touchdowns. I will never say that I have them perfected, but at least they now pass my own personal standards.

One other thing that I have noticed in the -6 is the requirement for a bit more aggressive right rudder at the beginning of the takeoff roll. I am not sure why this is ? perhaps it is the size of the rudder, or the shorter tail, but the -8 allows you to be pretty lazy. If you don?t anticipate the swerve at about 20 knots in the -6, you?ll be taking off from the left side of the center stripe (at least if you?re me you will!). I?ve now got this factored in, but have to remind myself which airplane I?m in as I add power. Cruise operations are pretty much the same, and one of my objectives today was to look at the Dynon instrumentation and data pages. In the Val, using 75% power, I can usually get things leaned out and trimmed for about 21 nautical mpg. In Mikey, at the same power setting, I was seeing more like 18.5 ? 19.5 at the best. Granted, I?ve been doing this a whole lot longer in the -8, and probably have a few more things to learn in the -6. I also wasn?t up very high ? 55?on the return today in the -6. I was able to see about 165 knots TAS at that altitude though ? only about 5 knots below what I would see in the -8. not bad at all for a ?wide body??..

Two days of sunshine, two great airplanes. I can?t wait for Louise to get Mikey back and do some more exploring up in the northeast. I think she?s going to like the information available on the more modern panel, and I KNOW she?ll like the new seats (made by D.J. Lauritsen). And I have a feeling that the two RV ?siblings? will be happy to have each of us to themselves again!

Paul
 
Good post and interesting flight report, Paul.

With regard to landing technique, how much flap do you normally use? Does it matter with the TD?
 
I have come to accept that the RV-8 is a wheel landing airplane. My own experience would suggest that the RV-6 is more of a three point airplane. I'm not sure exactly why, as three point in the 6 is not full stall, but I know I am much more consistent that way.

I discovered that the cross-wind landings tended to be much better so sometimes I simulate that with the wind straight down the runway. When the mains are a few inches above the pavement and I am ready to land I just go ahead and put in some aileron. It is a very controlled way of gently planting one main, then the other follows smoothly.
 
Good post and interesting flight report, Paul.

With regard to landing technique, how much flap do you normally use? Does it matter with the TD?

On the -8, I have been using about 30 degrees. I got in that habit early on, since it just felt better than 40 - but I probably should go back and experiment with full flaps again (now that I have more than 650 hours in the plane). I decided to just start out using full flaps in the -6, and it feels fine.

Paul
 
With regard to landing technique, how much flap do you normally use? Does it matter with the TD?


After using primarily three point landings for the first couple of years in my RV-6, I have turned to wheel landing for the past six years because I can be more consistent with wheelies.

I think it is useful to drop full flaps in the -6 for wheel landings unless crosswinds dictate otherwise. With my plane (this may very well vary depending on the CG and weight of other -6's) full flaps raise the tail and make the plane stick to the runway with less stick movement once the wheels touch down. I have counseled other RV pilots who have been struggling with wheel landings to use full flaps and it usually results in more consistent landings.

Proper airspeed and sink rate are critical for wheel landing on the springy gear lest we get to regain our three landings and takeoffs currency on just one lap around the pattern. ;)
 
Wheel Lands vs Three point

Good post Paul.

Flying Doug's RV-6 "Flash", and Jay's old 6, "Borrowed Horse", I concur that the difference in visibility is the major deference between landing the RV-8 vs. the RV-6. Neither is difficult, but a pilot like Doug with lots of 6 time will find the RV-8 easier than a guy like me with nearly a thousand hours in the RV-8 flying the 6. I too was bouncing my head off the canopy in a vein attempt too see more as I crossed the threshold. It's not that visibility in the six is bad, it not! It's just that the RV-8's vis is so good I got spoiled.

I have flown several RV-8's including yours, and they all wheel with ease. Only rarely have I made a truly smooth three point in an 8. The Doll will simply "Dance" around when forced to three point. Maybe an aeronautical engineer like you can explain that to me! I don't get it.

Like you, I flew the little Grumman two seater for years. The flaps were small, and I either used them all, or not at all. I carried that habit over to the operation of the Doll, and it works well for the same reasons. With two hundred horsepower, I can even make soft or short field takeoffs with full flaps and simply raise the flaps while climbing out without the Doll falling out from under me. The only exception was climbing out of Johnson Creek Idaho with a full load, at around 5000 pressure alt. I stopped the flaps about half way when the Doll started to settle over the grass.

Still, I like the high drag condition with full flaps to aid in airspeed control on final using power on for normal landing. It reminds me of the old Boeing 727 with the gear and flaps hanging. Fuel flow (power) was up to about 9000 lbs per hour on final with lots of drag and great airspeed control. That same fuel flow in the 72 was good for a .84 mach cruise at FL 350.

Your thoughts?
 
Three Pointing the -8...

Well Danny, my explanation for the "dancing" three-pointers is that the airplane is far from done flying in the three-point attitude on a normal landing. When I wheelie (all the time!), I let the airplane decelerate with a little forward stick and then let the tail drop on it's own, cause if I try and force it down, I'll be flying again - that's why I think my theory is correct. Flying the airplane with all three wheels on the ground is definitely "skittish".:rolleyes:

I really haven't played with flaps on take-off, since when I tested them in Phase I, I got the best performance with no flaps. Of course, that was in the syrupy thick air at seal level - maybe I'll have to do some testing out at Big Bear Lake sometime when we're out there and see if I get different results.

Paul
 
In an odd sort of way, it's good to hear of some "high timers" struggling a bit with landing the -6. After nine years of flying my -4 with no landing issues, I have found my landings in my -6 to be inconsistent at best. They're coming around with time but still not to a point where I can predict the quality of the touch down with any certainty.
I usually did a three point landing with the -4 and yet I could wheel land it okay. With the -6, I'm still searching for the secret to a three point and it seems a wheel landing requires a lot of excess speed to keep from being in a three point position near the touch down. I typically use full flaps. The -6 seems to decelerate quicker near the stall, too, which took some time for me adapt to.
So, the question of day for you high time -6 drivers is: what speed should I be flying in the flare for a wheel landing? My airplane stalls at 57 mph indicated with full flaps. Also, my CG is normal for a -6.
I would appreciate any words of wisdom.

Steve Hamer
RV-6
0-360 BA Hartzell
Apple Valley, Ca.
 
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