Lowrance Are You Listening?

An Opinion:

Lowrance,

We like your little Airmap 600C handheld, and your controls and aviation software are pretty good, too. You're a much better value than Garmin. On the other hand, what medication were you on when you dreamed up the 2000C tablet-style portable?! The 2000C's form factor is terrible, and the poor resolution display (320x240 pixels) is a bad joke. We know that you have marine units similar in form factor to AvMap's Geopilot and Garmin's 296/396/496 series; why didn't you adopt one of your marine units? Yes, the marine units are a little too wide for a standard avionics rack, but they would still be better for aviation use than the 2000C.

How about introducing a 2000C replacement at Oshkosh 2008?! The new unit would have the form factor of the AvMap Geopilot II, a 5-inch screen, and at least a 640x420 pixel resolution. Then, YOU would be "King of the Aviation Portable Hill;" not Garmin or AvMap!

Happy New Year!

Bill Palmer

Actually, I think the 2000c's vertical oriented screen is much more useful to pilots than the horizontally oriented Garmins, especially if you like to have track always pointed up.

As far as the lower resolution, I had it on a long trip just a couple weeks ago and found it more than adequate. (I usually turn the terrain feature off, because I can just look out the window to see terrain. It just clutters up the screen during VFR flying.)

If the price for higher resolution means paying $1499 for the cheapest color Garmin (w/out weather) or $650 for the 2000c, Lowrance is providing, by far, the best value out there.

alpinelakespilot2000 said:

As far as the lower resolution, I had it on a long trip just a couple weeks ago and found it more than adequate. (I usually turn the terrain feature off, because I can just look out the window to see terrain. It just clutters up the screen during VFR flying.)

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AH, but then you never know.....

During the winter months, about three years ago; there was a Cessna 310 pilot flying parallel
to our north/south mountain range east of Salt Lake City. He had been fighting strong headwinds on a long cross country, and decided to re-fuel.

As he started his descent, he failed to notice a shorter east/west mountain (Point of the Mountain) because of broken clouds and haze.

Before he knew it, he was facing rising terrain directly in front of him; and was able to instantly push throttles full forward and haul back on the yoke, as it was his "only" survivable option.

The twin engine plane stalled at nearly the same angle as the rising terrain, just before contact. It then cartwheeled, but stayed mostly in one piece.

Luckily, both the pilot and his passenger survived, with little injury. I could see this plane from my house for several days until it was removed.

In this case, due to not flying in the clearest of VFR conditions, the terrain just gradually rose, without him defining the difference between it and the partial cloud/haze cover.

Terrain warning on the GPS would have made the difference!

We've also had several more "VFR" flight into terrain accidents around here; with one being just a month ago. Two planes flew into the same mountain range (about six years apart). One at night, and one with low visibility during daylight hours. Both aircraft had flight instructors on board. The night accident had GPS, but not a detailed map or terrain warning. I don't know about the recent accident, but it was an older Beechcraft.

However, in a re-creation of the night accident, I took along a Garmin GPS with terrain warning. It went to yellow, and then red, just as it should have!

And while I'm at it, just a few years back, a non-area pilot took off from the airport next door, in an attempt to "scud run" to clear VFR conditions that he could see in the distance. Unfortunately for him, he followed a road that split off the freeway into a dead end canyon to the east. He apparantly made several 360's before slamming into a vertical granite wall.

This is another case, where it was technically VFR, but a moving map & terrain features, would have made a big difference!

As to my Garmin, the terrain is just a lighter colored background and it doesn't bother me at all. Looks kind of "neat", actually. Once rising terrain is within specified altitude settings, that you set, another window will appear on whichever page you're using, to show imminent disaster ahead!

While none of these accidents happend in clear VFR "daylight" weather, and all took place in mountainous areas; I'm just pointing out the benefits of terrain mapping/warning in what was thought to be VFR conditions.

L.Adamson -- Garmin 296

Bill Palmer said:

Lowrance,

We like your little Airmap 600C handheld, and your controls and aviation software are pretty good, too. You're a much better value than Garmin. On the other hand, ...
Bill Palmer

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Yes, if your listening, please make the display brighter... like the picture on the box. I have to say that I think that picture is so misleading that it is false advertising.

Karl

L.Adamson said:

As to my Garmin, the terrain is just a lighter colored background and it doesn't bother me at all. Looks kind of "neat", actually. Once rising terrain is within specified altitude settings, that you set, another window will appear on whichever page you're using, to show imminent disaster ahead!

While none of these accidents happend in clear VFR "daylight" weather, and all took place in mountainous areas; I'm just pointing out the benefits of terrain mapping/warning in what was thought to be VFR conditions.

L.Adamson -- Garmin 296

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Actually, for those of you who are prone to scud running , you can have the terrain off and still have terrain warnings. Given the larger screen on the Lowrance, you can turn off the terrain on the main screen to get rid of unnecessary clutter and still have the screen show you a vertical profile of any obstacles or controlled airspace in front of you and give you warnings as you are approaching them. It will also give you a vertical track line showing whether or not you will clear the terrain at your present rate of climb. Thus, the only time I turn the full screen (topographical) terrain feature on is when flying at night.

The more I play around with my Lowrance the more impressed I am. Very hard to beat for $650!

Lowrance 2000c database does not have private airfields

Just a note: the Lowrance 2000c Jeppesen database does not include Private airfields. I know that cuts out a goodly number of possible fields in my area. Sure reduces the number of strips available in an emergency.

Sent Lowrance an email but got no answer. Asked them at Oshkosh, they told me to talk to Jeppesen. Jeppesen said that they include it but Lowrance for some reason takes it out.

Anyone knows the real answer?

I'd like to see it included.

Welcome!!!!!!

Jerry, welcome to VAF!!

Now, as to your user name----------

Sure does conjure up some strange images.

Lowrance

I spent 15 minutes standing in front of their booth at Oshkosh 2 years ago with a 1/2 dozen other guys while they chatted among themselves about who knows what. Finally gave up, walked away and when I got home I mounted my 2000C in the back seat and got a Garmin. Garmin has always been fabulous with customer service despite their size. Have their product on my boat too. Don't short change them, they are the leader in this stuff and you'll find a lot of grumbling with Lowrance's "Customer Service" as they like to call it.

By the way, I wrote them about this experience and got the typical mumbo jumbo from some kid that read the proper response out of a book with absolutely no reference to my visit, my issue or my request. Could have come out of any "tame the upset masses" handbook.

wangchili said:

Just a note: the Lowrance 2000c Jeppesen database does not include Private airfields. I know that cuts out a goodly number of possible fields in my area. Sure reduces the number of strips available in an emergency.

Sent Lowrance an email but got no answer. Asked them at Oshkosh, they told me to talk to Jeppesen. Jeppesen said that they include it but Lowrance for some reason takes it out.

Anyone knows the real answer?

I'd like to see it included.

Click to expand...

Private airfields are included in the database. If you put the identifier into the 2000C as part of a route it will show on the map. But you are correct, they don't show up on the map if they're not part of a route. Anywhere Map shows all private strips.

I have two complaints about the 2000C. All airports show the runways oriented North/South. Garmins show them oriented in the actual direction that they run. The 2000C has a timer that can be used as a flight timer (for fuel planning purposes, etc) but it can't be displayed on the map page. I asked the guy at SNF about this and he looked at me like I had two heads. He said no one else had ever asked for a flight timer to be displayed on the map page and acted like I was some kind of oddball.

RVadmirer said:

Finally gave up, walked away and when I got home I mounted my 2000C in the back seat and got a Garmin. Garmin has always been fabulous with customer service despite their size. Have their product on my boat too. Don't short change them, they are the leader in this stuff and you'll find a lot of grumbling with Lowrance's "Customer Service" as they like to call it.

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Yep, don't short change Garmin! Since my last post in this thread, I've switched from the Garmin 296 to 496 with XM Weather. It's like switching from a medium to a high powered computer. The 496 locks on to more satellites in probably 1/5th of the time. The graphics/screen resolution is like going from standard television to high definition! But the XM Weather is what it's really all about!

L.Adamson

Stunning thread....

I must say I could not disagree more with most of the notes in this thread.
The 2000c form factor is just about PERFECT. It can be mounted anywhere and provides a big clear screen without forcing you to rebuild your panel.

It is so bright that I have to remember to turn it off when landing at night. It is actually somewhat blinding with the backlight on. Finally, the thing only costs $650 or so.

I suggest everybody should get one and then buy yourself a nice Dynon Efis with the money you saved over the 496 .

John

Screen size

The screen size of the Garmin is about the same size as my mobile phone. My 50 year old eyes can not read it. Even with my readers on there is to much information on to small a screen. My AvMap may not have all the bells and whistles, but at least I can read the dang thing.

iweshuff said:

The screen size of the Garmin is about the same size as my mobile phone. My 50 year old eyes can not read it. Even with my readers on there is to much information on to small a screen. My AvMap may not have all the bells and whistles, but at least I can read the dang thing.

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I'd say the screen size is about three times that of my mobile phone, but I certainly wouldn't mind something larger. Something the size of the Garmin 1000 would be best! I'd even prefer the size of some Garmin marine units.

However, seeing how the 496's screen size is a bit compromised, it does have a high resolution screen (pixel wise). It's extremely clear for my 57 year eyes, without a pixelated look; although I have great vision close up.

What's excellent though, is all the bells and whistles. The complete AOPA airport directory, and over 850 airport taxi & runway diagrams.

Since I had the 296 previously, it's the XM Satellite weather that is of great importance; and the reason I shelled out the extra cash. Out here in the mountain west, the weather changes are quite dramatic in just a 100 mile radius, let alone between mountains and valleys. I like the idea of knowing whats going on 300 - 400 miles ahead..... almost instantly!

Of course, now that I have the 496, the 596 with a larger screen (like the Garmin marine model), and perhaps 3D synthetic vision will probably be released next month. That's the way it always works in my case.

L.Adamson

Lowrance Listening.....?

Has anyone noticed they aren't? They are part of a huge corporation and could care less about our input. It's a cheap product at a cheap price with lousy customer support if you can get any. So enjoy the big, low resolution screen and lacking functions, my GIB does.... I have high resolution, top notch information and super music for my Zulus from my Garmin up front. Don't need a Dynon.....

I was pleasantly shocked at the fantastic support I got from Garmin when I was having issues. They identified an antenna issue immediately and replaced it. They were quick to help with subsequent issues that turned out to be my problem! Good guys for another huge corporation. Nothing like the completely useless crew at the Lowrance booth at Oshkosh. I have two of their products and will never go there again....

2000C a good product

Hi all,

I have been FLYING, hope you all noticed I said FLYING not listening to Willies Place on XM, behind the 2000c since the unit first came out. Since that time just about every one I know that ownes a 396 or a 496 has sent them back to garmin for repairs. The 2000c just keeps plodding along. If I have but one complaint it is far too bright for night flying, aside from that you cant pry it from my hands. I'm just about finished with the RV-9 that has a MGL Odyssey in the panel but you can bet your last buck the 2000c will be in the aircraft also.

John H.
N194JH RV-9
N5810U Cherokee

John H said:

Hi all,

I have been FLYING, hope you all noticed I said FLYING not listening to Willies Place on XM, behind the 2000c since the unit first came out. Since that time just about every one I know that ownes a 396 or a 496 has sent them back to garmin for repairs. The 2000c just keeps plodding along. If I have but one complaint it is far too bright for night flying, aside from that you cant pry it from my hands. I'm just about finished with the RV-9 that has a MGL Odyssey in the panel but you can bet your last buck the 2000c will be in the aircraft also.

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I'm on my fourth Garmin moving map since 1993. I've never had to send one back for repair...

However, my new "high resolution, non-pixelated, XM weatherized, Garmin 496 hasn't been around the block enough to know...

L.Adamson

edit: A friend of mine does have the 2000c. I think it's an excellent -- GPS screen size wise, and especially the price. I just wanted weather capability.

too bright

>>it is far too bright for night flying
Hit menu twice (brings up main menu). Screen is the first option. Hit enter and select the brightness. I was just doing this yesterday (rainy day) to tone mine down a bit as well.

I think I'm going to move my antenae to the engine comparment. It's on the rollbar now. Just want a cleaner installation. I hope the antenae is not too expensive. Just in case it fails.....

John

John H said:

...If I have but one complaint it is far too bright for night flying, aside from that you cant pry it from my hands. ...

John H.
N194JH RV-9
N5810U Cherokee

Click to expand...

John, I'm not doubting what you say, there must be a distinct difference between the display on the 2000 and the one on the 600C. Using my 600C, I have to take off my sunglasses and move my head around the cockpit to get the best angle... and I still have trouble making out the details. I am using external power which turns on the backlight. Without that, I can't see it at all.

Now this is day VFR on the Texas gulf coast. The sun is very bright and the display is showing the terrain as dark green. It is almost impossible to make out details on the dark green backgound. The few times I've gotten inland and the background has shifted to a lighter green, it has been easier to read, but not like the picture on the box. I still think that picture is so misleading that it is false advertising.

This next weekend I will be flying the -8 to my new home in North Idaho. That should give me plenty of opportunities to use the 600C in different modes and configs. I will report back my findings.

Karl

We all have our favourites don't we? When I wanted a new GPS I didn't need one my old one is a Lowrance from 1996. Never had a problem and worked perfectly. Just could not see it in sun light. It ran my auto pilot just fine. But like I said you had to put it in the shade to program the thing.
I was going to get a Garmin 496 but went back to the Lowrance, got the 2000c, what a great device easy to program and ease to see. I paid $599 for it and now they are $585. I never have had to talk to Lowrance about anything so they may be jerks, I don't know. I would have went with Garmin but I didn't think I needed the weather and now I see the controllers have to guide you down the taxi way. (almost)
I got a really great GPS with a large screen I can read any where and it does everything I want for $1900 less than Garmin.
I may have liked a Garmin just fine, I have one in the car and it is not lost most of the time.

N51HS RV-9A

terrain is dark....

Karl,
You're right about the bright sunlight situation. With the terrain awareness display on, it is dark. This is especially true when flying westbound into the sun. I have turned off the terrain display and am using a white background. It is easy to see in the brightest sunlight. But, as mentioned earlier, it is too bright at night.

Any dark background is going to be problematic in bright sunlight. You're basically squinting into the sun and then shift your focus down to a dark object. Many people claim this is not a problem. But they must have much better eyes than I do .

John

Regading the brightness for nightflying issue: you can set it for night viewing by hitting menu/menu/screen, then select night viewing in the Display Options field.

I've flown a Garmin 296, EKP-IV and Lowrance 2000c in similar conditions. I decided on the 2000c because it was the easiest to read, hands down. The EKP-IV has a fantastic display, but it's font sizes are too small for me to read comfortably. The Garmin simply washed out and disappeared in the sun (it was mounted beside the EKP-IV). My 2000c is not quite as bright as my Dynon EFIS with SuperBright glass, and since I don't have terrain I find that I run it at max brightness during bright sunlight and turn it down a bit in overcast. In the last few minutes of legal daylight I have to turn it pretty much down to minimum.

For night flight the "night" mode seems to work, but we have to remember the limitations of the technology. The 2000c uses cold-cathode flourescent backlighting (which is why it's hard on batteries), while the majority of other GPS units are using LED backlighting. The LED's give a wider range of dimming. Unfortunately they also generally give less light at max brightness. Lowrance has done a good job in getting the unit to go from bright to dim without any flickering at low light levels as seen with some cold cathode flourescents.

I would support many of the suggestions made above with respect to form factor. Keep the box the same size, but fill the top half of it with glass instead of leaving so much of it as surrounding plastic bezel. I know XM weather would be a great feature but since I can't get it reliably here in Canada it's not a feature discriminator for me.

As for customer service, Lowrance Canada is about as dumb as a post. Unless you get the right person, and then they beat the living daylights out of everybody I've talked to at Lowrance in the USA. I guess it's a bit of a **** shoot - service is, after all, a personal thing.