Legal assistance in Oregon

Hi to everyone.
I'm encountering problems with an avionic supplier. They refuse me to ship the corrected RV9 marked UNITED TSO'd airspeed I paid (after having returned back from Italy the wrong version) if I will not pay the second "value added taxes" and shipping costs which I refused to pay.

I'm italian and don't know if you have consumer associations or something similar who helps to proceed against supplier without encountering expenses greater than the item's cost (750 USD).

I don't know what exactly to do now.

Thanks.
Camillo

Camillo, I don't know if I can help you directly, but here is some advice.

I live in Canada, and in my opinion, most American suppliers don't know how to support export markets. There are notably good examples, but they are not common. It really is a barrier for us to do business with American suppliers, so many of our local builders have freight forwarders in the US and we drive down to import the items properly.

You can't do this, of course!

What you should have, however, are the original documents that prove you imported the item. The supplier should provide you with a receipt showing the return of the original item and the reason. With this documentation, you then apply to your local tax authority for a refund of the original taxes and duties.

If you return an item for service under warranty, the supplier needs to provide you with unabiguous documentation that shows the service and "no charge under warranty". When the item arrives, you use the original importation documentation to prove that the taxes have been paid. This requires a supplier who know the procedure and cares about their customers.

When I first built my 9A, I talked to Van's about export/import into Canada. They had no advice and did not understand the complexities and frustrations. I'm sure this is common. What's worse, suppliers insist on shipping UPS into Canada, which is the WORST way to ship because UPS charges brokerage fees, while AMEX does not.

With the US dollar falling so low, Americans suppliers are getting more competitive and can expect to see a growing export market. I just wish they spent some time servicing foreign customers better.

With the increasing power of Homeland Security in the US, it's getting harder for us to do business from outside the country. Driving over the border is getting more difficult, and I can no longer even send my engine oil samples by mail across the border. This is a safety/maintenance issue, yet we have no recourse!

Good Luck!

Camillo - I am in the UK so have some of the same problems as you. I have built a -9a and am building a -4, and the lack of worldliness of many US shippers is most certainly the most frustrating part of building with US parts.

I can not help you with US legal stuff but might have a couple of tips for the future. Unless it is a huge loss I would forget it and move on since you will have several similar frustrations before the end. If you really feel strongly I would name and shame on the internet. That will probably bother them.

- when you return parts, the taxes you paid on entry can be reclaimed under EU law. The process is cumbersome but does work in the UK. That does not help with shipping charges.

- I would limit who you buy from in the USA. VANS and Spruce are halfway competent. For small orders from both for less than $100 both will use USPS Global Prty mail. This is an untraced service once it enters the EU but the parts always turn up in the end, and it is cheap. For big items make sure they give them to a courier like DHL.

Go do some riveting! That will take your mind off what is a very frustrating isssue, Steve.

PS For a chuckle I will relate a story from 20 yrs or so ago. ATT & Olivetti set up a joint venture around telephone switches. To negotiate the deal ATT needed to send 11 (yes, eleven) VP to Italy. It turned out that 6 needed passports, because they had never been outside the USA before. You can guess who got the better of that deal!

Thank-you, Vern and thank-you, Steve.

Supplier sent me the wrong airspeed. They refunded me the returning shipping costs but then charged me USD 130.00 for shipping it back to Italy (don't know why they charged...if they refunded me the returning, they should have refunded the re-sending). They didn't tell me the tracking no., nor when I asked for it the day after the second delivery (I saw it from UPS invoice and remainder). So, I couldn't contact UPS to solve the problem. When I told supplier I would not pay any other sum, here what the sales officer told me, which really offended me (look...she said "incapacity").

"Dear Mr. Trasatti,

Sorry about the confusion, but by the time you requested a tracking number, UPS had told us the order was on its way back. Therefore, the tracking number you just sent us, was not the number we thought you were requesting. You refused the package on 11/20/07, and we have contacted UPS for the new tracking number for the refused order, and they were unable to give us one. We don?t know where the package is and apparently we have not received it here yet.

You are responsible for all ?value added taxes? in your country. When you returned the first airspeed, we refunded more than the value of the freight you had paid. We are no longer interested in shipping this airspeed back and forth across the world. We have already lost money on this transaction, and are not willing to risk any more losses due to your inability to handle your country?s duties and fees.

Thank you for your business, but we can do no more.

Sincerely,"

I think I will try to block credit card payment. I'm still within the 60 days period. Don't know if I have chance to win or if this is a bad practice, in term of morality. Give me an opinion, please.

In the future, I will follow what you said: Van's or Spruce (it went also well with Safeair1, Steinair, Avery, Aeroelectric). I will not try to save $10.00 to have these problems. I ordered the airspeed in July and I still don't have it.

Camillo

Camillo - its hard to put myself in your shoes and understand the details, but if I understand correctly they made the mistake which caused the chaos. If that is correct you have tried to sort it out correctly, so now just stop the credit card payment if you can.

The most important thing I have learned is that chasing the last $10 is pointless. Yes, I did not mean there were not other good suppliers. I have had super service from Aerosport Power and Becki Orndorf and others, but there are some disasters out there.

Try to plan ahead and make a few big orders. Also, order extra nuts bolts washers. It is so much cheaper to have a pile of spare hardware than be missing one bolt.

Good luck. Ciao!

My opinion: if they made a mistake then they should cover ALL of the costs of correcting it.

If they are unwilling to do this then I think you should dispute the charges with your credit card company. And, obviously, not buy things from them in the future.

I am not sure if they can/will do anything since you are outside of the US, but the Better Business Bureau - http://www.bbb.org will try to resolve buyer/seller complaints if you file a report with them.

Thank-you Steve and thank-you, Morlino.

I visited BBB website and I will fill the online complaint. Don't know if I have to pay for this. We will see...

Before, I think I will try to block credit card charge. Tomorrow will be monday and offices are open.

I will give you news.
Camillo

I wasn't able to block credit card charge. They say this kind of problem should be solved with seller.

I will try better business bureau.

Bye.
Camillo

I wrote to BBB, but received no answer (yet).

I wrote to supplier, suggesting to find a solution, but received no answer.

Update

Hi again.
I managed to obtain USD 130,00 back on my credit card. This sum was shipping costs from USA to Italy and should have been paid by supplier (who already paid form Italy to Usa). Actually, I'm now "out" for the instrument costs.

I wrote two times to supplier. I also suggested a common solution, such as shipping item at my cost to New York city (I'm planning a journey there). I received no answer. Supplier has simply decided to ignore me!

BBB did not answer (maybe because I'm a foreign; they cover domestic disputes).

I don't want to give up. I now need a lawyer. Maybe a young lawyer who works alone (reasonable costs). Someone who could send a letter to supplier menacing a trial and then eventually proceeding before a Court on my behalf.

Thanks.
Camillo

Edit: I found these lawyers. Anyone can suggest me one?
http://lawyers.findlaw.com/lawyer/l...location=Grants+Pass,+OR&Submit=Find+Lawyers!

sorry i can't help

I can't help, but you have been very "nice" and not bashing about this. Would you please let us know who this avionics co. is. I am in the US and own my own company. I don't like doing business with companies or people who don't "own up" to their mistakes and take care of them.

Everyone makes mistakes. In these forums you will find many problems and companies trying to help the customer fix the issue. Some companies do it very well and some customers just can not be made happy. I'm not saying that about you or this avionics company, just stating that I like to do business with companies and people that "stand behind" their products.

Keep us posted and I hope you get a fair outcome.

Jeff H
austin tx

Camillo said:

Thank-you, Vern and thank-you, Steve.

In the future, I will follow what you said: Van's or Spruce (it went also well with Safeair1, Steinair, Avery, Aeroelectric). I will not try to save $10.00 to have these problems. I ordered the airspeed in July and I still don't have it.

Camillo

Click to expand...

Camillo,

If there is anything I can do to help please call/email me. Shipping internationally can be tricky. I sympathize with your plight.

Camillo said:

Thank-you, Vern and thank-you, Steve.

In the future, I will follow what you said: Van's or Spruce (it went also well with Safeair1, Steinair, Avery, Aeroelectric). I will not try to save $10.00 to have these problems. I ordered the airspeed in July and I still don't have it.

Camillo

Click to expand...

Camillo,

If there is anything I can do to help please call/email me. Shipping internationally can be tricky. I sympathize with your problem.

Lawyer Up?!

Camillo,
I think you 've been watching too many TV shows. One visit to a lawyer and one or two letters and you have doubled your loss! You must think in legal terms. What dollar amount do they (Chief Aircraft for those who don't know) specifically owe you? Is it so much that it's worth an attorney? I doubt it. And if you can find an American attorney that will take a little case like this you have found a starving attorney that should probably change careers.
Let me know if you find an instrument you want and I can bring it to Italy when I come over at Easter. But I'd give up on Chief. I and a couple others have written them with no answer. We'll never buy there again. I sent back their last catalog and returned my last purchase. That's all I can do.

You have my sympathies. Occasionally even us Americans get "burned" by a supplier.

But I would never involve a lawyer unless the dispute involved many thousands of dollars. Look, you are being too legalistic about this...first refusing to accept the shipment over a modest amount of money, now trying to find a lawyer half-way around the world. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

At this point I'm confused as to what you have or don't have. Take what you can get from your credit card company, give the avionics name to the posters who have volunteered to help you, and take the advice of Steve in the UK. All of us, wherever we are, will make ordering and building mistakes, or have mistakes made for us, and will waste money....so be it. Remember this ancient Roman saying: Illegitimi Non Carborundum.

Our System - and Some Kudos

Camillo,
I forgot to mention that here we have a "Small Claims Court" for this ytpe of dispute. No lawyers involved, but you have to be here for it. Good for up to about $5,000. A lawyer would charge you as much as you have lost for one appearance in court!

Ralph,
In the end he has paid for an instrument and the duty on it, which is very steep. And he has nothing to show for it. That's over $1,000 lost so I understand his pain. Looks like he got the shipping costs back. They won't even answer his mail.

This is not the excellent service we see with most every other supplier we deal with. I have recently had remarkable help from Lightspeed Aviation on a headset and, at least, great concern from Oregon Aero over an issue that fell through the cracks. Would gladly work with them both over and over!

Actually, I'm a lawyer in Italy, have a doctorate in civil law and I'm trying to become notary public. So, yes, I'm meticolous (maybe also immature). And I can't stand unfairness. I could have understood an answer: "Sorry, we will send you the instrument once paid UPS pending shipping costs". But silence is offensive. And a matter of principle is not strictly related to economical gain.

I "lost" about USD 730,00 (which on about USD 80.000,00 for the whole plane is less than 1%) . And if I can go back in the past, I will pay the USD 130,00 for the second "value added taxes". But who could have imagined the total incapacity of the company employee to manage the shipping?

We have different mentalities. I can deduce no one of you would prosecute supplier in Usa, if you were in my clothes. Here in Italy, I would have certainly started a trial (and I'm not contentious...believe me). And look...I guess here justice is less strict than yours and a trial lasts several years.

I thaught in a clever solution with supplier. Now, I have no reason to save Chief Aircraf Inc., Grants Pass, OR the pillory.

As Romans would say...CAVETE CHIEF!

Edit: I forgot to thank everyone who helped me and wrote to Chief and returned items to them! Should someone need help from me in Italy, I'm ready.
RVadmirer: if you come in Rome, we can have a trip with the local Aero club airplanes.

Small claims

This is a darn shame Camillo, and as an Oregonian, I'm sorry to see an Oregon company pulling this cr*p. If this had happened to a U.S. citizen (like me), you bet I would file a small claims court action. See: http://www.osbar.org/public/pamphlets/smallclaims.html

It seems that you must be present to do this, but I don't see a requirement that you be a U.S. citizen. It may be that a local lawyer could file a small claims for you. At the bottom of the above link there is a online referral service. You may be able to email some questions to a local lawyer and get some answers for $35. Good luck.

Camillo said:

I "lost" about USD 730,00 (which on about USD 80.000,00 for the whole plane is less than 1%) . And if I can go back in the past, I will pay the USD 130,00 for the second "value added taxes". But who could have imagined the total incapacity of the company employee to manage the shipping?

Click to expand...

What would you like--realistically--to happen now? The ideal would be for Chief to resend your purchase and pay for shipping and import taxes...which it seems they won't do. Would you accept that they reship it at your expense (shipping and import taxes)? You certainly should either get the part or refund of the price of the part.

I'm trying to think of a compromise solution that some of us could then call Chief and propose. Public pressure and appeal to their goodwill will almost certainly be more effective, faster, and cheaper than an American lawyer.

Thank-you Ted and thank-you Rfinch.

I think a common solution would be the following: Chief ships instrument to New York City (a relative of mine) charging me for the cost. I will then wait that my relative will come in Italy in July or I can go there and pick it up myself. In this way, I will save new taxes and Chief will solve an issue.

Alternatively, if Chief agrees, I can send Fedex or other company to pick up instrument for me and deliver it to New York.

If someone could obtain Chief consensus to such operation...I would appreciate very much. I can't send Fedex there if I'm not sure instrument is ready and Chief doesn't refuse to give it to them. I wrote them proposing the above solutions, but...nothing. We say, in Italy, "civil death" (you are dead for somebody).

Update: Chief answered tonight. Office manager message was very kind. She said they thaught I received instrument (?!). Anyway, I told them I did not receive it and I will be glad if they ship it to New York City, charging me for shipping costs. I hope this will solve the issue. Stay tuned.

Update

Chief wrote me saying instrument is in Italy, at customs office, asking me to decide whether to pick it up or not.
I phoned UPS and discovered it was not true. Instrument was last scanned in Phipadelphia, in the first days of December, 2007. They opened a search procedure.
Last monday, I called UPS again and discovered instrument got lost. It seemed Chief already sent documents to obtain refund.
I wrote Chief explaining all and suggesting them to refund me or to tell UPS to pay me directly. Now is sunday, still no answer...

The never ending story.

Instrument was lost. UPS refunded Chief. I wrote Chief a couple of times to ask refund and received no answer. My C/C at the moment has not been refunded.

Edit: there are strange timing coincidences. I was just contacted from Chief and informed that UPS did not refund them and that I will be refunded as soon they will be refunded. So, good news.

Camillo,
Hang in there. You might want to ask Doug if he'd be willing to move this thread over to the General Discussion Forum. Down here in the regionals, it doesn't get as much visibilty. Heck, the only reason I even read your post to begin with is I recognized your name after corresponding with you these past few days about the VOR antennas and I was curious your interest in the Oregon regional forum. Between Australia, Canada, South Africa,and the UK, plus many other countries, there's a lot of overseas builders who might have some advice in dealing with the international shipping issue. Plus it doen't hurt to expose this to us domestic folks who might be potential customers with the same company. From what I've seen, a company's customer service reputation can make or break them in this business.

You are right!

Hi Todd. You're right. But I originally posted in general forum and thread was moved here...
Camillo

I'm glad to announce

I received Euro 320,96 refund from Chief aircraft Inc.
It is the amount that UPS refunded Chief (USD 497,20). It is lower than the amount which I paid (USD 459,00 + 130,00 for custom range marks), but it is still a huge score (better than nothing). Finally, I lost USD 260,00 (first duty and VAT and the said 130).
Thank-you all for your support. I guess I wouldn't be able to obtain refund without your help.
Camillo

Update. I ordered a new airspeed from Aircraft Spruce, with custom markings. They wrote me UNITED sent them a 0-200 kts. instead of the 40-210 kts. I ordered. When they asked me what to do, I answered: yes, I want it. It is beautiful. 75% cruise will be in yellow line area. Green line is very wide. VNE is pretty close to the 200 kts. end of scale. Very intuitive. I'm glad, now!

Photo of the instrument at the bottom of the page linked.
http://nuke.rv9.it/Pannello40h/tabid/57/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Not wanting to start a multinational war here...... But I have been dealing with a very large Italian company in Modena for almost 20 years, and you would not believe the poor level of service when they stuff up!!

All sorts of ducking and weaving! Warranty is not a word in their dictionary.

Maybe I can employ your services over there one day!

Enjoy your RV!

DB