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Rotax 912

jim miller

Well Known Member
When 95 cents would buy a euro the 912 was expensive now that it takes $1.45 to buy a euro any news on the current price. With the dollar circleing the bowl it will probably only get worse. I wonder if Van is having any second
thoughts on his engine choice? On the Super cub website a member associated with a flight school in Australia related they have replaced five 912's in 5000 hours with only one even rebuildable. The crankcases fretted decreasing tolerances on three and one had a cam wear severely. One of the five had inflight engine failure. Only recently has one of their 912's reached 1500 TBO.

Jim Miller
 
I don't believe what you have heard. IF all of that happened at one flight school then you have a situation were the flight school is at fault with improper maintenance.

There are Rotax 912's in Europe with 4,000+ hours on them each, still flying. I know of one in the US with 2,500 hour on it and it is still going strong. Over the years I've talked to several of the largest repair facilities in the US, South Mississippi Rotax, Lockwood Aviation, ect, and none of the problems you have mentioned.

The reliability and performance of the Rotax 912 / 912S is unquestioned. There is a reason the US government puts the Rotax in the Predator, Cirrus puts them in their light sport entry, and Cessna was going to use them until Continential redesigned the 0-200.
 
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I certainly can't verify the truth in the post I mentioned. The supercub forum can be viewed by non members. The post is under the experimental section in the post pertaining to the cont 0240. I too was suprised by their experiences. On the issue of cost in light of the dollar/euro exchange rate does anyone have any idea what the current price of the 912.

JM
 
The current prices from Lockwood Aviationare as follows. These are NEW prices. Used engine can be had for around $5-10K.

912 (80 hp) = $13,900
912S (100 hp) = $15,500

They are about the same as they were 5 years ago. My guess is increased production efficiency has helped in offsetting the dollar value to Euro.
 
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912S (100 hp) = $15,500

My guess is increased production efficiency has helped in offsetting the dollar value to Euro.

My guess is Lockwood hasn't updated their web site recently ;)

Rotax has a very strict price fixing policy. I found that out last year when buying a 582 for another aircraft. Despite what's listed on the web pages, if you actually call all the dealers for the price du jour, you'll find they're exactly the same. California Power Solutions lists the 912S at $18,122 now, which is probably closer to reality :mad:

I'm afraid our only hope for price relief will be an OEM agreement with Van's. I'm not optimistic that it will be much relief though.

Cheers,
Rusty
 
My guess is Lockwood hasn't updated their web site recently ;)

snip... California Power Solutions lists the 912S at $18,122 now, which is probably closer to reality :mad:

I'm afraid our only hope for price relief will be an OEM agreement with Van's. I'm not optimistic that it will be much relief though.

Cheers,
Rusty

Yeah... Rusty is correct. Also, the Jabiru also gone up and is listed on the Sonex site at $18,400. POOF... the price of a completed RV-12 just went up by 3-grand. :( Still reasonable if Van is able to keep the kit cost down slightly below the others.

It's a shame that TCM wasn't able to shave more weight off the LSA O-200. No matter how you slice it... I can't see it working on the "cab-forward" design of the RV-12. It is just too heavy. Using it with any of the LSA... you really lose usable carrying capacity. It becomes full fuel OR your wife's purse! :rolleyes:

DJ
 
a weighty issue

When I fly the Tecnam Super Echo with my wife, we are so close to the MTOW with full fuel tanks, I have her leave her purse in the car! No complaints though... just glad there is a Sport Pilot option!
 
Maybe with the expanding american market for the 912 they will follow our lead and move the plant to mexico.
 
The plunging US dollar as of late will eventually affect the price of most imported manufactured goods. This is killing Airbus and Bombardier. The Euro, Canadian dollar and Australian dollar have all soared by comparison. I too think that 912S engines will be well over $16K if you can get one these days. For a kit like the RV12 this is a pretty expensive engine now unfortunately.

I think proper care and feeding of the Rotax is essential to long life. Many operators don't follow the recommendations and procedures and come to early grief. The 912s have proven very reliable with proper care. The 914s in military use have proven less durable with crankcase cracking in some instances with pretty low hours however these are being operated beyond civil limits sometimes which is not completely fair to the design.

Operation on 100LL with regards to oil type and change intervals, idle speed, carb synchronization and oiling system cautions must observed.

Rotax has set up another line to increase production but even that might not be enough with the demand out there. Many dealers were without engines from the factory less than a year ago.

We will be offering an EFI kit for the 912UL and 912ULS engines in early 2008 to replace the less than liked Bing carbs.
 
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912 Costs

I'm building a Rans S-7S Courier to compliment my RV-8. Rans recently increased their OEM cost for the 912ULS (100hp) to $16,200. Previously, the cost was in the mid $14k range. I suspect Van's costs for an OEM engine will be equivalent.
 
I've checked several sources in Austrilia and no one knows of any problems with a flying school there. Aussy pilots love to talk so there would much news about this as MANY fly low HP engines like the Rotax & Jabaru due to cost of fuel being so high there. AND it is where Jabaru is made. Not even the Jab folks have heard about the failure of so many Rotax engines in AU.

I'm gonna call it, .... Myth Busted.

As far as the price goes, it's not Van's / Rotax fault the US dollar is slipping.
 
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I relooked at the Super cub website. The poster in question was "adelaide
biplanes". I invited him to provide more info on his experiences with the 912 if he was interested. If their experiences were due to poor maintenance, improper operation it would be good to learn what not to do.

JM
 
Its a slow day at work so I searched the web for "adelaide biplanes" . Looks like a very professional operation. They just took delivery of two cub crafter sport cubs, have a waco, supercub and some light sport aircraft. Hopefully they will get back with us on their experiences with the 912.

Majortom-that is an interesting engine. Are you by chance retired military?
I recently retired with over thirty-mostly Navy Dental Corps.

JM
 
My Handle

I am retired military, but as a reservist. I was active Navy in the 60s, then went into the reserves. Got my retirement in July of this year. Majortom is just a play on my name. What do you think of the Gemini?
Tom
 
I'm building a Rans S-7S Courier to compliment my RV-8. Rans recently increased their OEM cost for the 912ULS (100hp) to $16,200. Previously, the cost was in the mid $14k range. I suspect Van's costs for an OEM engine will be equivalent.

Yep, the 912 is a bit of a deal with the devil that all the LSA manufacturers that use it are starting to get bit by here in the US (due to the FX rate, cooling US economy, etc).

Unfortunately, it's about the best you can do for 80 to 100hp. I have one on my titan and so far it's a really good engine. Wish I had another one!
The next best from what I understand is the Jabiru and it has its own problems (prop rpm too high, and now it's getting bitten by the FX rate as well)....

LS
 
"We will be offering an EFI kit for the 912UL and 912ULS engines in early 2008 to replace the less than liked Bing carbs."

Ross, might be a good market for this. Does the EFI 912 use the same fuel pumps as the 914? Also, if the ECU fails (or power to it fails), will the engine continue to run?

Mike Bell
 
"We will be offering an EFI kit for the 912UL and 912ULS engines in early 2008 to replace the less than liked Bing carbs."

Ross, might be a good market for this. Does the EFI 912 use the same fuel pumps as the 914? Also, if the ECU fails (or power to it fails), will the engine continue to run?

Mike Bell

We are using different pumps than the 914 because the EFI operates at 40 psi (much higher than the 914 blow through carb setup). Can have one or two pumps but have to watch current draw with the stock internal alternator and other avionics load (8 amps max).

If power fails to the ECU, you are a glider just like if the stock 912 engine driven pump fails. Small backup batteries are recommended however I have never heard of an alternator failure on the integral setup. The regulators also have a good rep. The ECU is tolerant of multiple sensor failures like MAP, CHT and IAT. There is no TPS fitted as it was not found necessary..

We are doing fuel only, retaining the factory ignition. One of our associates is offering full fuel and spark control, full redundant if you want that too with rear mounted external alternator. He has been selling these setups for 914s, using our ECU for several years. He has some other cool parts for 912s and 914s coming out too.

There are a few more details and photos here about 1/3rd of the way down: http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html plus a new Rotax sub-page has been created which will have updates and more info on it soon. We hope to start flight testing in about 2 weeks, weather permitting.:)
 
I am retired military, but as a reservist. I was active Navy in the 60s, then went into the reserves. Got my retirement in July of this year. Majortom is just a play on my name. What do you think of the Gemini?
Tom

I hope an engine like the Gemini could prove itself. That is the weak link in the LSA or any light aircraft. The more competition in engines the better. I too am retired Navy Reserve (Dec04) If you are from Kentucky our paths may have crossed. I traveled to a lot of reserve centers to do dental exams. I was the dental officer for a CB unit in Huntsville for many years.

JM
 
Ok so the dollar is falling in respect to the eruo, Why will we have to pay more for the Rotax? If the vast majority of the sales are in the US, then we in the US will set the price. Rotax will just have to make less profit, or not sell the engines. In the end the consumers will set the price by paying what they are willing to pay for the product.
 
Ok so the dollar is falling in respect to the eruo, Why will we have to pay more for the Rotax? If the vast majority of the sales are in the US, then we in the US will set the price. Rotax will just have to make less profit, or not sell the engines. In the end the consumers will set the price by paying what they are willing to pay for the product.

The vast majority of Rotax engines are not used here. We will have to pay more because the US dollar is worth less than is was last year, last month. Do you really think we set the price of the RV kits? The only influence we have is to buy in volume to lower production costs.
 
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Competition is what lowers price. That I why I was kind of hoping initially that VAN's would have chosen the Jabiru. (plus a simpler installation) However, with the devaluation of the dollar... the Jab's price has gone up as well. If they would shave more weight of the TCM O-200 and sell it for about $15,000... they might start to give Rotax a run for their money. As of now... Rotax is the big dog in the 100 hp. arena. They really don't have any competition to speak of... so no incentive to curb costs.
 
You are right we are stuck for now with the 912. It is probably a good engine as many reports have indicated. I got a response from "Adelaide biplanes" that basically started this post. You can find their website if you google "adelaide biplanes" and contact them yourself. I informed them that many on this site were skeptical or downright disbelieving of their experiences with the 912. As much as I hate to type here is their reply: "Yes I guess its inevitable that people may think all the obvious things like poor maintenance etc. etc. We have been all through that with our local dealers both for the aeroplane and the engine. We use the engines on average 4 hours a day, 100hrs a month and maintain them exactly to the manufactures schedule. We only use approved oils, coolants and run them on premium unleaded as recommended. Let me re-iterate we have changed 5 engines in 5000 hours over 3 years. Not one of those engines has been able to be successfully rebuilt".
 
The RV12 needs a home brewed engine that costs well under 10K ideally. There are some floating around but all are a bit heavier than the 912S or have less hp.

http://www.revmasteraviation.com/products/under_development/index.htm

http://www.raven-rotor.com/

http://www.greatplainsas.com/scflywhl.html

http://www.aeroconversions.com/aero_vee_2002.html Used by Sonex

At these prices, I might be tempted to shove it all the way back to the firewall, forget the paint, have a minimal panel and a carbon fiber prop. Weight would be close enough for experimental.
 
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I just don't get it. Why you are so negative on such a proven engine?

You would rather spend $10K on an unproven engine, with zero history, no enforceable warranty, no service centers, that is worth virtually nothing on resale, or would you spend $15K on a proven engine, with service centers all over the country, made by a large / deep pocket company that has more engines flying than any other engine period, an engine capable of getting 4K hours before overhaul, and is worth $5-10K on the used engine market.

Seems to me it's an easy choice to make, and a good engine choice for any aircraft needing 80-100 HP. Why not just go with the best instead of fighting with an unproven engine from a company on the verge of bankruptcy?

You choose Van's kits because why? Why not choose the engine Van's RECOMMENDS?

To each his own, I'm done.
 
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Actually I like 912s, just not the price and I have a lot riding on lots of people using 912s (with EFI) so I hope they continue to cough up the bucks for them.

$16-17K nearly buys you a 180hp Lyc clone these days. That money seems pretty steep to me for 100hp.

I like Van's kits because they have the best bang for the buck, good support and are metal but I ain't gonna drop $15-$40K for an engine to power them with. Just me I guess. I like the experimental part.

Found this on the Zenith site: http://homebuilthelp.com/ZAC/The912Competition_zac.htm
Also interesting that Zenith has a more open mind with regards to engines to power their kits including Conti, Lyco, Rotax, Corvair, VW, Jabiru, Rotec, Subaru and Suzuki with realistic warnings about weight, performance, life and reliability concerns up front. Sounds like they offer mounts for the popular ones and you are on your own after that.
 
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You are right we are stuck for now with the 912. It is probably a good engine as many reports have indicated. I got a response from "Adelaide biplanes" that basically started this post. You can find their website if you google "adelaide biplanes" and contact them yourself. I informed them that many on this site were skeptical or downright disbelieving of their experiences with the 912. As much as I hate to type here is their reply: "Yes I guess its inevitable that people may think all the obvious things like poor maintenance etc. etc. We have been all through that with our local dealers both for the aeroplane and the engine. We use the engines on average 4 hours a day, 100hrs a month and maintain them exactly to the manufactures schedule. We only use approved oils, coolants and run them on premium unleaded as recommended. Let me re-iterate we have changed 5 engines in 5000 hours over 3 years. Not one of those engines has been able to be successfully rebuilt".

I'm still curious - did they give any details as to the failures? It sounds like they failed so badly that only replacement was necessary, i.e. "not one could be successfully rebuilt". I'm a bit skeptical of that since only some kind of grenading failure could result in that and 912's just don't do that (even the 2 strokes don't do that normally).

Other details on operation, like typical temperatures encountered and operating RPM would be really helpful here as well.

For example, a common operational mistake is attempting to baby the engine by running it at too low of an RPM. They actually last _longer_ when the **** is run out of them, 5000 rpm and above on a continuous basis. They'll go out to TBO and beyond at 5200-5300 rpm at nearly wide open all the time.....

Too low of an idle is another, especially on the older motors not fitted with the newer dog gear setup or overload clutch....

Inquiring minds want to know?

LS
 
O-200

The light weight O-200 TCM Continental that they are developing for the Cessna LSA would be perfect. The weight savings is unbelievable, don't recall but like 30 lbs or less than a standard O-200! This is a way better option in my opinion than the Rotax, which to me is a bit of a toy engine that cost as much as a real engine. Sorry its MY OPINION. :D The gear box and water cooling does not turn me on either. ITS THE DARN LSA WEIGHT LIMITS THAT FORCES US INTO THESE ROTAX. Those LSA limits by the way is for a European market. The USA is a BIG country to explore, with tall, big (and fat) people. I weigh 170-175 lbs but two people at 175 lbs is a burden to most LSA's with full fuel, forget bags. The max gross is a joke for LSA's. I guarantee W&B is a LSA law that will be broken routinely; it's totally impractical. How safe is an underpowered, over gross weight little plane?

I could say a few things negative about Rotax, but I'll let its real reputation speak for itself. There is already one or two Rotax gear boxes to puke-up their guts. I think the shine on this NEW MODERN engine in the USA market has started to dull. Lyc and TCM designs have been around in one form or another, refined and proven, since or before the 1950's. That speaks for itself. All the anti Lyc, TCM bashing propaganda has shown itself to be hogwash. Van said HE HAD to go with the Rotax to stay in weight, not because its better. He is right, he had to go with the Rotax with the stupid LSA weight limits. The LSA rules almost SPEC-OUT the Rotax. When you make an engine lighter, you make it light duty, especially when using one that uses weight for a gear box, water and radiator. "There ain't no replacement for displacement" and some heavy IRON. Also the reported Hp Rotax supposedly makes is something I hear is questionable. The Lyc and TCM tend to make their rated HP and are actually underrated. With the Chinese trade deficit and jobs exported to India, its time Americans wake up and buy American made, especially when its better. In my opinion a O-235 or O200 is a far superior engine than a Rotax. The Lyc and TCM make or can make more HP and are fair more reliable and less "finicky", no clutches, pumps or weird velocity carbs. A C-150/152 with Lycs and TCMs took a beating day in and out by students and instructors. I guarantee these $100,000 LSA wonders that make it to a true flight school under hard use will fall apart. Unless you prang a C-152, it and its engine will fly forever. Throw some new jugs on it and go. A Rotax? I believe its a pile of junk at 5,000 hours.

Even Van doubts the viability LSA class (he wrote about it in the RVator) but felt compelled to participate in the market for fear of being left behind. I would never build a RV-12. I'd build a RV-3/4 with some aero mods. I put some VG's on for low speed limit and leave the gear & wheel fairings off with a prop pitched so I could make low / high LSA airspeed limits (wink wink nod nod). Limiting top speed is another stupid LSA rule, it should have been HP. A single seat LSA makes more sense. Making the limited gross weight with one seat and a real engine is practical. Besides most LSA's are really single seat, I mean occupant, planes anyway. My big disgust is our FAA, EAA and AOPA all got behind this. Funny the day after the LSA rule went into effect there where 30 makes and models of LSA's, all foreign made airframes and engines. What? I wounder who got paid off?

A Gent at my EAA chapter had a beautiful RV-8 and sold it for a LSA. I guess he worried about his medical in the future. He's a big tall guy and weighs (I being kind) 220 lbs? There is no way he can take another person and make LSA gross. If LSA weight was even 100 lbs or 150 lbs heavier, a lot of existing used planes could have been used, but that would have cut into the all the European LSA's manufactures and Rotax sales. I'm not an isolationist or into to protective tariffs, just common sense. The LSA class makes little sense to me. 1500 lb gross would have been better. I fail so see how a LSA is safer or makes it so pilots are less likely to kill themselves because its a little lighter and under powered. The only thing that makes sense is LOW stall. The LSA class is not a "democratic" plane about freedom but more kind of a socialistic plane. It's a plane for everyone, verses high performance or practical planes for a few. Barf

Merry Christmas to all, especially our troops, Happy Holidays and have a safe and wounderful New Years to you and yours.
 
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I'm with George on a lot of this. Van had little choice but to go with the lightest, proven engine for the LSA design to give a decent useful load. Unfortunately it is also the most expensive, making the RV12 less of a bargain overall compared to other RVs. The pulled rivets will save a lot of time so there is still appeal there for many.

Because of the weight and other restrictions, I think you may see a number of RV12s built as straight experimentals with cheaper engines.

Sonex approves the Jab 2200, 3300 and AeroVee engines only for its aircraft and have similar logical views and warnings as Van's on alternatives. Interestingly no Rotax option and the 3300 is more money than a 912S.
http://www.sonexaircraft.com/engines/engines.html
http://www.sonexaircraft.com/kits/pricing.html

I'm wondering if Rotax will be able to supply enough 912S engines when the RV12 hits its likely sales stride? This has been a problem recently. Van's might have had a second powerplant choice in the wings. Maybe they know something we don't.
 
I'd love to see the new improved O-200 come out as generally available as a rotax competitor. I havn't seen it and know nothing about it, but if it's like the old O-200, it should be a great motor...... I wonder what a typical FWF weight is for it?

As for the 912/912s, a couple things:

- the gearbox has a lot of fixes, like the overload clutch and a new dog gear setup. Bigger gears are used on the 100hp version too so it's just stronger overall. Long as you don't run a 100lb prop on it, the gearbox is durable and not a constantly problem-giving part.

- the water cooling is good news/bad news. The bad news we already know. The good news is the need for complicated air ducts is basically eliminated apart from airflow to the radiator, and consistent cooling to each cylinder is pretty much guaranteed.

- it really is a proper airplane engine and not a toy. You can even fit a Woodward governor and constant speed prop to it if you want (an option you have to order with the motor). They sound like ultralight motors but they run like real airplane motors.

So technically, and power-weight wise, it's a very tough little engine to beat. It's no accident that rotax also owns the 2-stroke ultralight/light a/c markets as well....

So how Vans will fare with it in the RV 12 we'll just have to see. Technically, it's as good a choice as you can make, but the sliding dollar is going to be a problem....

LS
 
Those LSA limits by the way is for a European market. The USA is a BIG country to explore, with tall, big (and fat) people.
Completely false (except the last sentence :D ). LSA is entirely an American set of rules "made in America, 100%" completely different from European rules. In Europe we have Ultralight or Microlight (UL) which is very different. The UL rules are (2 seaters): MTOW 450 kg - 992 lbs (472.5 with rescue shute), and min stall speed of 35 knots. That's it. There are no other limits, no speed limit, no limit on which engine can be used or propeller - you can have a jet engine if you want. Practically this means an UL registered plane is a 1+1 seater, with two persons on board you can forget about cross country with luggage and lots of fuel. A license for UL is much easier and cheaper than PPL, and the medical is similar to car medical. Rules and regulations for UL are operated by private organisations (EAA could be such an organisation for instance), not the aviation authoroties. The aviation authoroties only "certify" the organisations. There are operational limitations: no acro, only day VFR, only 10 NM from shore.

There have been lots of talk about simply increasing MTOW to 600 kg (1320 lbs), to "harmonize" the MTOW with the American LSA rules and to make the planes true 2 seaters in terms of practical operation. Judging by the way things are looking at the moment, this will not happen. Instead a new class is likely to come, somewhat similar to the VLA class (Very Light Aircrafts) already existing in some countries, but seldom used due to being too similar to "ordinary" planes. MTOW will likely be around 800 kg (1760 lbs), 2 seats max, PPL will probably be needed, other than that nothing is known.

The 912 is "spec'ed out" for the european UL rules. That is why they designed the engine in the first place, and this is where 90% of them are used. With MTOW of 600 kg, an increase in power to 120-130 HP sounds reasonable. IMO the Jabiru 3300 looks much more spec'ed out for LSA than the 912.


Even Van doubts the viability LSA class (he wrote about it in the RVator) but felt compelled to participate in the market for fear of being left behind.
In Europe the UL class has exploded in the last 20 years. From consisting of overprized poor quality "lawn chairs" importet from the US, it now consist of hundreds of different manufacturers producing anything from the simplest design with 2 stroke engines to high tech, high quality aircrafts outperforming Cessnas and Pipers. The Rotax 912 is a key element here. The reason for this is cost (cost of equipment and cost of operation) and more or less a complete removal of the bureaucracy of the aviation authoroties that is strangling GA. The last reason being the most important, but have little effect without the first. The total cost of UL vs GA is typically 1/3 for similar performance, but the initial cost of UL vs GA can be much lower, less than 1/10 for license + fully a functional aircraft. For most people this means the cost of the ticket of obtaining a license and an aircraft is reduced to 1/10 of what it was 20 years ago, and you get that ticket without the tireing bureaucracy. The only contender is experimental aircrafts, but you have to spend 5 years building it.

The american LSA is simply trying to copy this, but maybe you are strangling it with rules and regulations all from the start? It seems also that you are starting in the wrong end with the top of the line products limited only in performance by those rules, instead of exploring what can be done much cheaper and much simpler. The Sonex is an exception here, still you have to spend some years building it.
 
- the water cooling is good news/bad news. The bad news we already know. The good news is the need for complicated air ducts is basically eliminated apart from airflow to the radiator, and consistent cooling to each cylinder is pretty much guaranteed.

LS

I don't know the bad news you are talking about. Can you elaborate?

One of the huge benefits for water cooling is dependable cockpit heat! Add a air / water heat exchanger & a 12V fan and you have enough heat to fly in below zero temps with a sweat shirt on. Only the heads are water cooled to eliminate detonation due to using mogas. The cylinder walls are air cooled so some baffles are required.

The Rotax 912 / 912S is as bullet proof an engine as is flying today. Run it hard, properly maintain it to FACTORY specs, it will serve you very well for thousands of hours.

If you buy a Rotax engine I strongly suggest you take as many classes as you can so you know the beast and how to feed it. Lockwood Aviation gives several seminars / classes during major air shows. Stay current with the latest information and fly the heck out of it.

B Svingen, can you comment on the reliabilty, and operating hours of operation being seen with the Rotax 912 in EU?
 
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I don't know the bad news you are talking about. Can you elaborate?

Sorry for being opaque, I only meant the usual additional complexity and possible failure points in terms of hoses, coolant, water pump and associated parts and the radiator itself and so on.

But even at that, the rotax setup is pretty simple and fairly goof proof.

Then there's the dry sump setup, which eases the installation of the motor itself (no big oil pan to work around) and so on.

The other advantage of the 912 is that it uses basically automotive metallurgy so the maintenance is easier and slightly cheaper. The fuel, oil and coolants used are all automotive and so are available locally at regular automotive prices (the oil filter debate still rages on, but even the rotax filters are available at the rotax suppliers pretty easily and not for too terribly much money).

The Jabiru is mostly automotive technology too but, IIRC, uses aviation grade oil. I don't know if it's designed for a steady diet of mogas like the rotax is, tho.

LS
[/QUOTE]
One of the huge benefits for water cooling is dependable cockpit heat! Add a air / water heat exchanger & a 12V fan and you have enough heat to fly in below zero temps with a sweat shirt on. Only the heads are water cooled to eliminate detonation due to using mogas. The cylinder walls are air cooled so some baffles are required.

The Rotax 912 / 912S is as bullet proof an engine as is flying today. Run it hard, properly maintain it to FACTORY specs, it will serve you very well for thousands of hours.

If you buy a Rotax engine I strongly suggest you take as many classes as you can so you know the beast and how to feed it. Lockwood Aviation gives several seminars / classes during major air shows. Stay current with the latest information and fly the heck out of it.

B Svingen, can you comment on the reliabilty, and operating hours of operation being seen with the Rotax 912 in EU?[/QUOTE]
 
Sorry for being opaque, I only meant the usual additional complexity and possible failure points in terms of hoses, coolant, water pump and associated parts and the radiator itself and so on.
[/QUOTE]

Good points. A safety feature that is not widely known is this engine is designed to, and can fly, without coolant (for a short period of time, at less than full power) since only the heads are water cooled. Important to know, as loosing coolant does not mean an inflight emergency. You'll have time to land safely. The Rotax 912 / 912S is an extremely well engineered aircraft engine.

Five years ago Rotax was working on a 200+HP aircraft engine that would have sent shock waives through the US aircraft engine community. The project was shelved for reasons unknown (that I'm aware of anyway) just a year or so ago. For now its the 115HP and below market they are dominating.
 
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912

I have a 912S currently with just under 500 hours.

A comment on using the coolant from a 912(S) for heating. The engine does not have a coolant thermostat. It runs fairly cool in winter weather. I have understood that the system was not designed for a thermostat. The engine runs better with cooler heads year around.

I think exhaust heat is still required for heating or carb heat purposes.

I am using an aftermarket oil thermostat recommended by Lockwood. Without it, the oil will not get warm at all in cool/cold weather.

John Bender
Iowa
 
Good points. A safety feature that is not widely known is that engine is designed and can fly without coolant (for a short period of time, at less than full power) since only the heads are water cooled. Important to know, as loosing coolant does not mean immediate destruction of the engine in the air, you'll have time to land safely. The Rotax 912 / 912S is an extremely well engineered aircraft engine.
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That's true and in fact was required for the certificated versions (the 912A, F, etc) as they had to demonstrate running for some period of time without coolant to acheive their certifications.

What I've always wondered is how long one could actually run without coolant a) before it's actually damaged and b) period, i.e. before it turns to junk and finally quits?

The other advantage of only having the heads water cooled is less susceptibility to "cold siezure", a problem with the earlier water cooled 582 (Rotax's 65hp 2-cycle) in which the entire head/cylinder was water cooled... I can confirm this personally with my 912 ;).


Five years ago Rotax was working on a 200+HP aircraft engine that would have sent shock waives through the US aircraft engine community. The project was shelved for reasons unknown (that I'm aware of anyway) just a few years ago. For now its the 115HP and below market they are dominating.

Yes, these were larger V8 motors if I recall correctly. I'm sure the cost would have been prohibitive, given that our lycomings are "cheap", about the cost of a 912s! ;)

LS
 
I'm sure the cost would have been prohibitive, given that our lycomings are "cheap", about the cost of a 912s! ;)

LS

If you can steer me in the direction of who is selling new Lycoming engines for $16K I'll take a freight train car full of them.
 
I'd build a RV-3/4 with some aero mods. I put some VG's on for low speed limit and leave the gear & wheel fairings off with a prop pitched so I could make low / high LSA airspeed limits (wink wink nod nod). Limiting top speed is another stupid LSA rule, it should have been HP. A single seat LSA makes more sense. Making the limited gross weight with one seat and a real engine is practical.

I'm with you George. The RV-3 seems like a natural choice for a single place LSA plane. It's already plenty light, almost stalls at the right speed, and flies fine at the legally allowable speeds.

If I were allowed to dream for a moment, I'd imagine Van re-designing the RV-3B kit for full pre-punched holes (pulled or flush rivets optional). It would have easily removable outer wing panels, allowing it to be trailerable, while leaving the fuel in the wing tanks. There would be two wing panels available, one for LSA, and one for normal experimental use. Both would allow limited aerobatics. HP range would be 100-200 HP.

If this were available, it would boost sales to the RV-3B kit, and allow a realistic single place LSA to be born. Heck, the LSA version of the RV-3 would be closer to what Van originally intended I think.

OK, I'm awake now... :p

Rusty (no 912S for me)
 
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You won't get any decent heat in the winter from a 912's coolant as already noted here. In fact, they are hard to warm up in the winter. The oil thermostat is the way to go for winter ops.

I heard from a Rotax rebuilder that one customer had lost the coolant and flew about 20 minutes at reduced power to land safely. The engine was junk but he made it.

Same with a Sube. I flew for 11 minutes at reduced power with no coolant and the engine was fine- never touched it and still flying it 160 engine hours after that event.

Many people don't like the dry sump system on the 912 and it causes way more mounting and packaging problems than it solves with the tank. I see no good reason why Rotax used this setup. It weighs more, is potentially less reliable given the external lines and introduces other issues for those unwary about procedures regarding purging, not turning the prop backwards etc. For an added depth of 3-4 inches, a 4 quart wet sump could have be used without impacting mounting in any common airframe. It works and you are stuck with it anyway.

Superior sells an O-320 FP version for $19,900, not much more than the real price today on a 912S.

The Rotax V6 engines would have been priced out of the market by all indications, creating only a small potential market for people wanting something other than Contis and Lycomings. They were cool however and it was a shame they came so far down the path then stopped.:(
 
You won't get any decent heat in the winter from a 912's coolant as already noted here. (

If you don't add a thermostat I guess you may be right, but my experience is 1st hand with 4 different Rans S-12s. All had hot water heat and it would drive you out of the cockpit if you had it set to max above 30F OAT. We had control valves to limit coolant to the radiator (most of the time it was blocked off) and all of the heat came into the cabin. Again, I personally flew (at least 100 hours) with a sweat shirt & jeans, comfortably, when the temps were below zero F.
 
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What was the indicated coolant temp with that type setup and a 912 at 30 degrees OAT ?

I've seen 582's with a thermostat that worked fairly well with water heat. If it works, it works.

John Bender
 
What was the indicated coolant temp with that type setup and a 912 at 30 degrees OAT ?

I've seen 582's with a thermostat that worked fairly well with water heat. If it works, it works.

John Bender

I could not tell ya, it's been a while, but it was roasty toasty inside the cabin.

A picture is worth a 1,000 words.

http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2048250/i/cabin_heat.JPG

Black dryer vent tubing carries heat to the front of the cabin or where ever you want it. 12V fan push a huge volume of air through the white cone shaped case to keep the coolant cool enough to block the entire radiator off. If that's not enough heat for you you can always run the hot oil though another one.
 
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More info on S-12 cabin heat

I could not tell ya, it's been a while, but it was roasty toasty inside the cabin.

A picture is worth a 1,000 words.

http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2048250/i/cabin_heat.JPG

Black dryer vent tubing carries heat to the front of the cabin or where ever you want it. 12V fan push a huge volume of air through the white cone shaped case to keep the coolant cool enough to block the entire radiator off. If that's not enough heat for you you can always run the hot oil though another one.

Is this installation standard or an option on the S-12?

Does the installation fully bypass the main heat exchanger, or is it just a parallel path around it (the entire system is not visible in the photo)?

Is the white device with the fan something engineered or is it an off the shelf part?

Any other detailed info you can provide would be appreciated. Feel free to do it via personal mail if you prefer.
 
B Svingen, can you comment on the reliabilty, and operating hours of operation being seen with the Rotax 912 in EU?
Well, I'm not sure if anyone actually have any statistical knowledge, except maybe Rotax. One key safety aspect about microlights is that they shall, due to low weight and low stall speed, be able to land at any time in the event of engine failure without causing serious damage to the occupants. The reliability of the engine is therefore irrelevant regarding safe operation. An engine failure is not considered a serious event (even though the material damage for a plane worth 150,000 $ is serious enough :) ).

Another thing is that since ULs are not the responsibility of the aviation authoroties, accidents with ULs are not investigated by them, no official statistics.

But, the overall impression is that the 912 is more or less bullet proof. They routinely go 2 and 3 times past TBO, and just keep on going with no problems whatsoever. Things do happen from time to time, but much less compared with other engines.
 
Is this installation standard or an option on the S-12?

Does the installation fully bypass the main heat exchanger, or is it just a parallel path around it (the entire system is not visible in the photo)?

Is the white device with the fan something engineered or is it an off the shelf part?

Any other detailed info you can provide would be appreciated. Feel free to do it via personal mail if you prefer.

It's an option for any aircraft.

It is capable of bypassing the entire radiator with the valves you see in the picture. "We" have decided not to shut it off completey and allow a small amount to circulate through the entire system to keep airbubbles out and to maintain temps though out the system. The radiator actually sits under the heater, out side the cabin, in the air stream.

It is specifically designed for aircraft and sold commercially price was about $350 if I remember right. WORTH EVERY PENNY! ;)

Trust me when I say this heater puts out enough heat from a Rotax to comfortably fly in zero F weather.

*************************

Here is a "homemade version" that costs ALOT less, and works very well. Acutally looks better too.

http://www.itsys3.com/kitfox/engine.shtml

A buddy (flying a Rans S-12) of mine made one using a heater core & 2 12V computer cooling fans.

We don't just stick the planes in the hangers when it gets cold around, we adapt, overcome, and fly!
 
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Many people don't like the dry sump system on the 912 and it causes way more mounting and packaging problems than it solves with the tank. I see no good reason why Rotax used this setup. It weighs more, is potentially less reliable given the external lines and introduces other issues for those unwary about procedures regarding purging, not turning the prop backwards etc. For an added depth of 3-4 inches, a 4 quart wet sump could have be used without impacting mounting in any common airframe. It works and you are stuck with it anyway.

I just read in one of the FAQ's on the ROAN site that Rotax's reasoning for the dry sump system is the low profile it allows for the motor. Looking at the installation of mine on my titan, I can certainly see the savings there in terms of height of the motor.

The Jabiru installations on this plane are pretty deep indeed and require a good bit of space.

Of course the other advantage of a dry sump is being able to handle a lot of "tilt" without starving the oil pickup (dry sumps are used on race cars sometimes for this reason).

Though I'd bet these problems are probably solvable with wet sumps as well.

But anyway, that's apparently why Rotax went with the dry sump...

LS
 
Shucks, yall from Texas maybe, 30F ain't winter. I walk around in sandals at that temperature. ;)

I was runniing the 912 UL on a test stand at temps from about 5 to 35F last winter here with no oil cooler and the rad taped completely off. I could not get the oil temp above 90F at a 2000 rpm idle after 20 minutes. The coolant was colder than that. We finally had to install a 400 watt electric blanket heater on the oil tank to be able to get the oil warm enough to safely run at high rpm WOT.

In flying the CT Design in even cooler summer weather you had to wait forever to warm up.

For real winter flying (-15-25C), a coolant thermostat and oil thermostat would be a must if you didn't want to waste a gallon of fuel warming the thing up and needed real cabin heat. These could both easily be done.

The 912 has the well deserved reputation for running too cool which is good for engine life but not so good for cabin heat. In all my testing, I never saw the coolant temp over 54C even after an hour of hard running- with a completely blocked off rad. I might add that I left the oil heater plugged in during the runs or the oil temp would drop back below safe limits in the prop blast.

I don't run a 'stat on my Sube but I have cockpit controllable rad doors and a water shutoff valve for 2 of the other rads to operate in cold weather. In cruise at -15C, the heater core alone is enough to cool the engine.
 
Cruise RPM on a 912 is 5,000 engine RPM. Maybe that is why you are not seeing the temps I'm seeing.
 
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