RV Buying Process

I've been telling my wife that when the RV-12 is offered for sale, that it would be wise to get my order in very quickly. If I wait, I might be at the end of a long line and might not get the kit for several months or a year. Will that be the case if the RV-12 sales go well? How did ordering go in the past when a new model was introduced? Long wait times especially if the 12 is offered up in a "complete kit"? Or should I expect little demand until the RV-12 makes it to a number of fly-ins so it can be flown by the masses? I'm a certificated sport pilot and have been renting a Tecnam P-92 Super Echo for $89.00 plus tax per hour and driving 200 miles roundtrip to the Sebring Regional Airport from Sarasota, FL just to get to the plane.. So you can see I'm ready to pull the trigger. What can I expect when the RV-12 is finally ready?

Good Day Jerry,

You raise a very interesting question. My two cents at this time is basically that I have no idea Unfortunately, at this point, I think there are a lot of variables that will come into play that simply aren't known.

For instance, it still hasn't been decided just how the kit will be divided up. It stands to reason that it's not going to be the traditional 4-kit series that all other RV's share; rather, the -12 kits will be slightly more condensed.

I think that once more information is known about the plane we can possibly judge things a little better. At this point, it always seems that a new kit has a large initial "wave" of buyers, and then it slows slightly until people hear first-hand how the kit builds and the finished product flies. My heart still tells me that Van is going to sells tons of -12s regardless. I hope that once testing is done on the final kit version they put that CNC machine on overtime and get ready to make lots of kits!

I know I'll be ordering one I think of the finished product after only 800 hours of work, and I'm eagerly awaiting the day I can place my order

Jumping early?

I was wondering about the consequences of jumping in too early. I have no experience of the early track record of the other Vans products and am curious about whether there's a serious risk of having to make safety and operability improvements to the aircraft during the build based on early feedback/experience? Does anyone have any feel for this?

Cheers...Keith

It's not a new model, but I was an early adopter of the new matched hole RV-8 fuselages last year. I would estimate that 95% of the parts are modified somewhat from the original RV-8 fuse. It is obvious that Van's put a lot of effort into making sure the new kits were truly ready to ship. I've had a few frustrating but very minor problems, but they were all due to incorrect hardware being shipped with the new kits. Van's has been very quick to rectify all of those issues. They've also been responsive when I've pointed out small errors in the documentation.

I would have no concerns about being an early adopter of a whole kit. Van's isn't like many in the industry that offer models for sale the day after the prototype flys for the first time (RANS comes to mind). Notice that they built both a test vehicle, and now are building a kit prototype before ever offering a thing for sale.

gblwy said:

I was wondering about the consequences of jumping in too early. I have no experience of the early track record of the other Vans products and am curious about whether there's a serious risk of having to make safety and operability improvements to the aircraft during the build based on early feedback/experience? Does anyone have any feel for this?

Cheers...Keith

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I wasn't an early buyer of an RV10 kit but invariably as flight hours build up there are a few mods coming down the line to address certain issues uncovered in service. I can think of a fin spar doubler that I had to add, door ajar warning system and mods to the nosewheel axle system as well. Thicker rudder skins on other RV models comes to mind also.

As far as how the RV12 will fly, I think Van is very picky about this aspect and would not release a design until it meets his high standards of handling. They have already made extensive mods because they were not happy with some traits.

I wouldn't be the first to order maybe but if you wait too long, you'll be waiting even longer. They still issue ADs for aircraft 30 years old so I don't think minor improvements that might be discovered are any great concern on an experimental. We rarely achieve perfection on the first try with a design.

Watch

JerryG150 said:

So you can see I'm ready to pull the trigger. What can I expect when the RV-12 is finally ready?

Click to expand...

You can expect teething problems.

Best advice is to sit back and let the "early adopters" work out the issues that will certainly be there.

Remember that the RV-12 is new and unproven. Focus on being the best pilot you can be with what you are flying right now, and pull the trigger after you have seen some RV-12's show up at fly-ins.

Patrick

Watch

I agree Patrick. Some of the experienced guys want to be part of the debug process and get the early kits. I'm content to let them work out any bugs and benefit from the improved version.

Also, as I recall Vans is planning on developing an extensive assembly manual with more detail than they have included in the past. Good documentation always takes a lot of time to pull together.

I am curious though as to what people think the production rate will be. I heard one RV-7 builder say about 30 planes a month. I don't know where he got his information so I have no clue as to how accurate that is.

Does anyone know how may RV-7 or RV-9 kits Vans is capable of producing per month? Once the orders start pouring in (and I believe they will) that will give a clue as to the possible lead time to get a RV-12 kit.

Frank

Volumes

Somewhere in this forum is a reference to the selection of the Rotax 912S as being the only engine that a manufacturer could ship 30 (I think) units per month to Vans. I think that's where the number came from.

Cheers...Keith

RV-12

I was one of the first that order the RV-10 kit, actually ended up with SN#91 and I don't think there was a month that went by from the release date. Yes I did have a few problems none of witch were insurmountable. The biggest was getting the kits, it does not take me 4 months to build any one of the kits so there was a lot of twiddling. I would really like it if Van?s puts the entire kit in one box. I will hopeful by one of the first with the RV-12.

Noel Simmons
www.blueskyaviation.net

gblwy said:

I was wondering about the consequences of jumping in too early. I have no experience of the early track record of the other Vans products and am curious about whether there's a serious risk of having to make safety and operability improvements to the aircraft during the build based on early feedback/experience? Does anyone have any feel for this?

Cheers...Keith

Click to expand...

I have the second 9A kit to ship, #90002. There have been several improvements on later 9A kits. A few examples that come to mind are:

1. When I did my control surface trailing edges, there was no mention of using ProSeal. My rudder could look a little better, but all of my other trailing edges came out fine without ProSeal.

2. The tiedown bracket in the wings is now a single extruded piece. Mine is an assembly made from 3 pieces of aluminum.

3. The flaps are now activated with a heavy-duty pre-made part. My plans called for making the part from aluminum tubing. The change was mentioned in the RVator, so I bought the new part.

4. There have been several cases where dimensions on my plans didn't seem right to me. Sometimes I've put a post on this forum and other builders have told me the latest dimensions. I also have a friend with a later kit and he has loaned me his drawings so I can note the revisions on my plans.

5. The biggest change is the new nosewheel fork. My kit has the old one, and I haven't decided yet if I will send my gear leg back to Van's and have it shortened to fit the new fork.

Would I order an early kit again? Absolutely! My kit isn't going together slowly because it's an early kit. I simply can't work on it as often as I'd like.

Going in early on the 9 (kit number 8) got me no preview plans for the same money as later kits that came with them and a deaf ear from the factory when I asked for them later on. Another builder ran his thru a copier and gave me a set that I could keep at work as a reference when calling for tech support. Everything else went pretty well and Van's did a great job of getting the kits out promptly. There were some missing parts in my kits that went to builders that claimed to be closer to flight and when the parts became available they would appear at my door. This involved wheel pants, and a couple of other small things that had no effect on my finish date. There are always the the people that order after you on kit purchases but who build full time and the parts have a way of making it to them first. These are the guys that are racing to be the first customer to finish and fly the latest model. These also usually end up for sale right away for very high prices. (Professionally built? Looks questionable. ) I actually had no animosity over this and would have gladly allowed Van's to fill urgent orders before me if they would have asked especially since my plane was no where near ready to fly when these backorders happened. What I'm saying is that Van's was able to prioritize and fill orders in a way that helped those who needed it and certainly never harmed me.

Another thing of note if you are new to the RV experience is that the factory seems to put out the tail kits right away to get as many hopefuls started on the build as are willing to order. Then they put the efforts into a wing kit and it will usually be ready by the time you are ready to order. This will take a few weeks until they ship after you send them some money most likely so they can run the CNC machines and fill all the orders at once. Then the process repeats for the fuse, and then again for the finish. Once the wings and fuse kits are available quick builds usually start to become available. If your going to be a launch customer plan on no quickbuild option for a while. Maybe this will prove to not be true this time but I'll bet you a coke it will be very much as described.

Enjoy the build,

Feedback

Thanks, guys. I guess the consensus is the risk of going early isn't too great, but for a cautious adopter the wait might be!

The latest update from Vans suggests they will still sell the kit in stages, although they will endeavour to minimise the lead-time between stages. This runs counter to their earlier hints that the kit would be shipped as a "oner".

As a European, I wonder whether I will have the option to buy the Rotax locally and, if so, whether this would be financially attractive.

I also wonder about the outcome of the glass cockpit evaluation. Will the two products become one option, a list of options, or a required purchase. If required, do we get a Dynon or an AF-3500, or both?

Does anyone have a view about the safety offered by installing two different technical solutions as opposed to the redundancy of two similar units with interchangeable functions? And would there be panel space for two AF-3500s anyway?

Cheers...Keith

After dissecting the November factory update, it seems like we'll all have to wait at least 5-6 more months till Van is ready to offer the RV-12 for sale. Only concillation is even if I HAD a third class medical and wanted to order a 7/7A, 8/8A or 9/9A Quick Build, the lead times posted on Van's factory site are 5-6 months, 2-6 months and 3-4 months respectively.

Since first learning of the RV-12 in the forth issue of The 2005 RVator and after learning how long it takes to build an RV in the VAF forums and First Flight postings, I hope I have the patience to build a plane.

Most postings say the build was among other things, fun and rewarding as well as an experience of a lifetime...so if I guess if I can fly my own RV-12 sometime in 2009 or 2010 it would have been worth the wait.

I also hope the tag line "it's not skill or experience that builds a plane, but the will to do so" is accurate...'cause I'm counting on it.

By the way, I've hope to be in the first group of customers for the RV-12 when available...not going to wait for the "bugs" to be taken out or for a demo ride...I'm not getting any younger!

7/9 QB

Jerry, during other discussions, personnel at Van's reported in-stock QB kits for 7's and 9's. You could have it next week

Rick

When I purchase my RV-12 kit, will it be wise to form a LLC (Limited Liability Corp) and purchase the kit in the corporation's name? I've been told that if I build an experimental aircraft, being that I personally am the "manufacturer" of the aircraft I will be legally liable for problems any subsequent owners of the plane might have.

Is there any other way to limit my liability? Or is it possible that 10 years after I sell my homebuilt RV-12 to another, I as the manufacturer will always be liable? Isn't this what put so many aircraft manufacturers out of business in the past? Is there insurance I can take out to protect myself? Do I have to purchase a SLSA, like a Tecnam Echo, to be free of future liability? This could be a deal breaker in my future plans to purchase the RV-12 kit.

Not to sound bad but...

gblwy said:

As a European, I wonder whether I will have the option to buy the Rotax locally and, if so, whether this would be financially attractive.

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Since Rotax is based in Austria, it makes a heck of a lot more sense to purchase locally. Especially with the Dollar as depressed as it is currently. Further, why would you want to pay for the shipping charges from Austria to Oregon and back to Scotland?

As for the instrumentation, thats going to be totally up to the builder.

However, to put another perspective on it, Van's has adopted the practice of building a flying prototype and then a kit prototype. The kit prototype is used to set up and verify the tooling for the kit. As noted by others, there are always improvements to come down the line. But the first kit off the truck will still result in a flying aircraft if the builder does his part. Some examples: the original RV-6 kits had floor mounted rudder pedals; soon they were changed to an overhead style but the old version still worked fine. Similarly, I got my empennage built before the counterbalanced rudder became available. I haven't thought about switching; there are a lot of flying 6s out there with the old-style VS and rudder. The recent SB for the nosewheel has caused a lot of grumbling but I bet nobody regrets not waiting until it was fixed to get their aircraft ordered. Truthfully, there are always a few bugs in the kits but I've found that my own errors far outweigh anything caused by the factory. So I wouldn't worry about which number in the run it is; order when ready.