What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

engine requirements?

speed

Active Member
I know this is going to be an open ended question. What attributes/specifications make an engine good for aviation ?

If we had no limits what would be the perfect engine. RPM vs HorsePower ? I would think you could map any rpm range via gears but is that impractical? I assume we have to do that for these auto conversions, similar to thge torque converter & transmission on cars.

I will ask more intelligent questions as I advance my understanding. This I hope will generate a flow of comments that will at least target my knowledge search to the important stuff.

thank you in advance.
 
Since the turboprops MUST be geared, the engine/airframe/prop designer can pick any prop speed they wish. It seems many of them turn slower than us piston guys. More like 1,000 rpm. Part of that could be they must use a bigger disk and have to turn slower to maintain subsonic prop tip speed. On the other end little props on model airplanes can turn 30,000 rpm.

I'm guessing someone will chime in and explain the best compromise speed for a 150-250 hp/100-200mph airplane is.................. 2,700 RPM.:D
 
IMHO, the desired engine attributes are: durability, reliability, high power to weight, low cost (initial and future overhauls), economical operation (miles per dollar), low vibration, simplicity (in installation and operation), and low noise.

Ideal rpm: probably close to the engines torque peak/ best bsfc; that speed varies with engine type and design. With piston engines, the torque peak generally falls below the hp peak rpm, not so with rotary engines where the torque/ hp rise linearly with rpm. With air cooling, heat generation is also a major consideration that could limit operational power settings. FWIW, I believe the best bsfc in the Mazda 13B rotary is near 6000 rpm, where internal friction is minimized by centrifugal rotor forces.

I believe a fixed prop should be picked to give the best cruise speed near that ideal torque/engine speed, and still provide acceptable climb rates. Most of the available geared PSRU units fall around 2.2 to 2.8 to 1 ratios- linked to the common automotive planetary gear sets available. Id stay away from the belted reduction units with RV-level powerplants.
 
Compromises

Since the turboprops MUST be geared, the engine/airframe/prop designer can pick any prop speed they wish. It seems many of them turn slower than us piston guys. More like 1,000 rpm. Part of that could be they must use a bigger disk and have to turn slower to maintain subsonic prop tip speed. On the other end little props on model airplanes can turn 30,000 rpm.

I'm guessing someone will chime in and explain the best compromise speed for a 150-250 hp/100-200mph airplane is.................. 2,700 RPM.:D

The simple bottom line in this discussion is that it is all a compromise. Various engines make power at various RPMs. Most classic Lycoming/Continental flat opposed engines were engineered to run at speeds that will allow efficient propeller performance without a gear reduction. There will always be a compromise between prop speed (tip speed limits) and prop diameter (ground clearance and weight,) and the aerodynamic realities.

I'm going to get flamed, but the reality that I see is although the "modern" automotive engines are very attractive, by the time your get the prop speed issue taken care of (reduction gears/belt) and the cooling issues addressed (engineering a cooling system and getting it in the airplane) you could have been flying a long time with something traditional. (I have) Now having said that, I would consider an auto-based engine if someone engineers a really bullet proof reduction system and there is an airframe available designed to accept a liquid cooling system.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I do NOT understand the implied negative comments regarding planetary gear reduction drives- Ive not seen a failure specified in all my research- they are as bulletproof as any component, far more so than known failure points like crankshafts and valves (and empty gas tanks;)). Drive belts can stretch and break. The downside is the extra weight and a small reduction in drive efficiency- but not enough to counter other advantages that many alternative engines provide. The weight is countered by the necessity of having a heavy crankshafts, rods, and pistons in conventional big bore (high displacement) air cooled engines.

If you ask me, the big advantage of the Lycs these days involves ease of installation and possibly, holding resale value. The costs, particularly rebuilds and parts, and some operational characteristics like noise & vibration favor the alternative engines, with a few exceptions. Performance differences seem minor depending on specific apps.
 
If science could make a battery that came close to gasoline in terms of watthour-to-weight, the electric motor would be perfect for aircraft engines. It's as simple as you get. Start up checklist: "Switch ON" End of list. Push lever forward to go, pull back to stop. "Switch OFF" whenever you want. The torque curve is amazingly flat, you could turn it at any practical speed without the need for gears. Silky smooth and very quiet. Shock cooling? Hah! Dive as fast as you dare and let the windmilling prop recharge your battery!

The downside is that charging time will probably never come close to the 2-3 minutes it takes to fill a tank even if discharge times were the same. Tolerable compared to the benefits of simplicity, but that's seen from the dreamworld perspective set in the first sentence...I discussed this on another forum a few days ago and did some non-scientific math. It showed that current lithium-ion batteries are 26 times heavier than gasoline per watt-hour of stored energy. Battery tech needs a breakthrough...
 
Redrive failure modes

I do NOT understand the implied negative comments regarding planetary gear reduction drives- Ive not seen a failure specified in all my research- they are as bulletproof as any component, far more so than known failure points like crankshafts and valves (and empty gas tanks;)).

Run a search on DanH (Dan Horton) He is the resident expert on the vibration issues with a redrive. Some very interesting reads.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Ideal rpm: probably close to the engines torque peak/ best bsfc; that speed varies with engine type and design. With piston engines, the torque peak generally falls below the hp peak rpm, not so with rotary engines where the torque/ hp rise linearly with rpm. With air cooling, heat generation is also a major consideration that could limit operational power settings. FWIW, I believe the best bsfc in the Mazda 13B rotary is near 6000 rpm, where internal friction is minimized by centrifugal rotor forces.

You should really read the previous discussions on this...it has all been hashed out before.

1. All engines are air cooled in the end...with a rad it is just that an intermediary transfer is used...coolant...which means two additional heat transfers 1. engine to water, and 2. water to rad, before the air can cool the rad. Each transfer is less than 100% efficient which means that by the time it gets to the rad you have some additional cooling needs. When the air interacts with the rad, it is at a much lower delta T, which means a greater volume of air is required to achieve the same cooling in terms of heat energy removed.

2. Weight has been hashed again and again, the "heavy" cranks and such in an aircraft engine do not result in heavier packages...as noted many times the car engine will result in a hundred pounds or more installed weight. This is being generous.

3. There is no documented fuel burn/ performance advantage, and in the RV class of aircraft, just the opposite.

However, you can expect smoother operation, and easier starting.

Back to the original question, to me it is all about speed/fuel burn, and the most simple installation possible. Simple, not because I am afraid of instalation and the work, but rather because the simple solution ought always be preferred over the complex, from a reliability standpoint.
 
I do NOT understand the implied negative comments regarding planetary gear reduction drives- Ive not seen a failure specified in all my research-
I have not seen ANY negative comments in this thread regarding planetary gear reduction drives. Other than mentions of turboprops, of which the two popular brands both have planetary reductions, you are alone in bringing up this subject! The cobbled together spur gear or belt-drive PSRU's that are common on car engine conversions are, I believe, what most posters are refering to here.
 
Access to parts and service

A consideration of importance to me is access to parts and service while traveling. Although the builder of an experimental aircraft can receive a repairman?s certificate and perform any required repair work, there will inevitably be times when they need local assistance...tools, shop access, replacement parts, etc....when away from home.

If you have a Lycoming engine, that assistance will be available almost anywhere.

Where will you find help to fix your auto conversion powerplant when you are a thousand miles from home?
 
If science could make a battery that came close to gasoline in terms of watthour-to-weight, the electric motor would be perfect for aircraft engines. It's as simple as you get. Start up checklist: "Switch ON" End of list. Push lever forward to go, pull back to stop. "Switch OFF" whenever you want. The torque curve is amazingly flat, you could turn it at any practical speed without the need for gears. Silky smooth and very quiet. Shock cooling? Hah! Dive as fast as you dare and let the windmilling prop recharge your battery!

The downside is that charging time will probably never come close to the 2-3 minutes it takes to fill a tank even if discharge times were the same. Tolerable compared to the benefits of simplicity, but that's seen from the dreamworld perspective set in the first sentence...I discussed this on another forum a few days ago and did some non-scientific math. It showed that current lithium-ion batteries are 26 times heavier than gasoline per watt-hour of stored energy. Battery tech needs a breakthrough...
I would agree with Ola here. We have been talking so far only about internal combustion (IC) engines but the original question asked about the best engine for aviation. With its flat torque curve an electric motor develops its maximum torque at its initial startup and that torque does not fluctuate all the way to its max RPM. No matter what load you place on that motor it is still developing the torque clear up until it stalls and stops. That is pretty good for our needs.

Add the simplicity of basically one moving part (the rotor around the stator or, perhaps in some motors, the stator around the rotor) and you have a very simple and, might I say, bullet proof power plant. The size and weight are considerably smaller than the comparable IC engine that produces the equivalent amount of power.

The storage medium for electricity is the downfall of electric motors. At present there is no way to store the amount of electrical energy needed to feed an electric motor. I just read a few weeks ago about some research dealing with "ultra-capacitors" that sounded promising but nothing is currently available except the various types of heavy chemical batteries that are difficult to recharge and quick to discharge at high power settings.

I would love to have a very quiet, low vibration, efficient (electric motors are around 98% efficient compared to 28-35% efficiency for IC engines), powerful, simple, low maintenance motor on my plane if I could.
 
JCONARD,
Interesting comments made. I admire the older Lycoming engines' performance and reliability (not durability); I'm suspect of the newer offering's quality controls and too high cost; and, I believe the time as come where automotive apps are coming very close to parity with the older conventional designs. Regarding your specific comments, here are my opinions...

In #1 regarding air cooling, I agree that air cooling will generally be lighter overall than cooling fluids, pump + radiator, however, the downside is that those heads need to be heavier to act as heat sinks to transfer the heat to the cooling fins. Air cooled heads typically run much hotter than water cooled heads (reason for their high efficiency, btw), which at worst results in problems with detonation and valve problems in high-powered apps. At best, an air cooled engine needs to be closely monitored for heat buildup and typically requires operation at less than optimum power levels. A well designed water cooling system is normally trouble free, has no real operating limits, and I believe, is better for engine lubrication and overall durability).

It is easy to increase the size of the radiator to increase cooling capacity, hard to increase the air flows/fin surface area. Bottom line, I believe water cooling has an advantage with high power (performance), air cooling has an advantage at low power (cruise). At 160-180 hp, we seem to be flirting at the crossover point. To be fair, I believe the Eggs (and some early rotaries, as well) have had problems getting adequate cooling with incorrectly-sized radiators, particularly at low air speeds.

The heavy cranks/rods are more function of the displacement (and internal stresses) required in a large bore/ long stroke reciprocating piston engine than they are with air cooling.

#2 regarding weight- You are wrong regarding Mazda Rotaries; an OEM Mazda Renesis engine (w/o cooling & exhaust) weighs slightly less than 200 lbs. dry. The redrive, cooling, and exhaust systems brings it up to ~350 lbs, close to the O-320/360, however, the potential peak power output is closer to an O-540 (250+hp).

I believe you are correct with the Chevy/Subaru's- they tend to be a little heavier than equiv powered Lycs, I believe, and normally produce slightly less output than advertised (because they have a hard time producing peak hp rpm due to less-than-optimal redrive gearing, I believe). The Subs are great engines otherwise.

#3- regarding fuel efficiency, the data is not particularly comparable nor reliable. Most of the data (Ive seen) regarding the O-360s fuel burns are anecdotal and generally try to pass ideal burn rates, in a low-power leaned-out setting, as normal. At full power, the reported burn rates seem similar (13gph), as they should be when based on hp output. Normal bsfc's should fall in the .45-.5 range, anything less than .4 should be suspect.

Mazda rotaries can be safely leaned to 20:1 without detonation (a function of their large combustion chamber surface area and stratified charge effects) in cruise. Past rotary data comparisons reported by Vans did not have leaning capability, so they were richer than optimal. Real World measured 4.3 gph @ 120mph, 6.0gph at 170 mph, 8.2gph @ 202mph in an 87 octane mogas fueled R-4 and 2.85 reduction ratio. I believe these numbers are close to normal Lyc burn numbers, are they not?

Bottom line, I believe the BSFCs are close at high power settings, and the Lycs possibly have a slight advantage at low power settings. High power Lycs need high octane avgas, the Rotaries do not; the actual cost per mile is a big advantage to the rotary because of the cost differences of mogas vs avgas, where available.

#4- regarding simplicity... One of the things I like best about the rotary is its inherent simplicity- only 3 "beefy" moving parts, that see none of the stresses caused by the constant acceleration reversals seen in reciprocating engines. Rotary engines do not catastrophically break down and stop like most other designs when run as designed. Worst case, they continue to RUN at lower power, but still get you home. When broken (low compression), they will not start.
 
electric motors

I would agree with Ola here. We have been talking so far only about internal combustion (IC) engines but the original question asked about the best engine for aviation. With its flat torque curve an electric motor develops its maximum torque at its initial startup and that torque does not fluctuate all the way to its max RPM. No matter what load you place on that motor it is still developing the torque clear up until it stalls and stops. That is pretty good for our needs.

Add the simplicity of basically one moving part (the rotor around the stator or, perhaps in some motors, the stator around the rotor) and you have a very simple and, might I say, bullet proof power plant. The size and weight are considerably smaller than the comparable IC engine that produces the equivalent amount of power.

The storage medium for electricity is the downfall of electric motors. At present there is no way to store the amount of electrical energy needed to feed an electric motor. I just read a few weeks ago about some research dealing with "ultra-capacitors" that sounded promising but nothing is currently available except the various types of heavy chemical batteries that are difficult to recharge and quick to discharge at high power settings.

I would love to have a very quiet, low vibration, efficient (electric motors are around 98% efficient compared to 28-35% efficiency for IC engines), powerful, simple, low maintenance motor on my plane if I could.

Whill I agree that an electric motor in a airplane would be ideal I will disagree on the weight of the electric vs the Lyc. I run several electric motors that are 50 and some that are 100 HP and they are heavy. I would guess that the 50 HP weighs around 400 pounds and the 100 wieghs close to 550 pounds. These are on irrigation wells so must be able to run 24-7 for several months at a time, maybe they are made heaver for that reason.
The wires coming to these motors are a big as your index finger, however they cost about 70% less to run then diesel motors of the same size.
 
WThese are on irrigation wells so must be able to run 24-7 for several months at a time, maybe they are made heaver for that reason.

Yes, and I suppose for the manufacturers there is little point in spending any time/money on weight saving design or material as the hunk of iron is supposed to sit stationary after all.

Steve, I've too read about the ultra capacitors. They, and other pipeline battery tech, actually make me more skeptical to electric aviation as the "amazing new things" (often vaporware) existing only in press releases and lab experiments still aren't close to viable.

Here's Sonex' take on it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8Pb_psj1A8

Not really a widely marketable concept, but it shows that people in the biz are dreaming and that is always a good thing.

As for marketability, I don't think the batteries need to equal gas tanks in order to sell. A personal sweet spot would be 1) at least half the range (meaning 1-1.5 at high power, perhaps 3 hrs at low cruise), 2) recharge time of 4-5 hrs and 3) easily replacable battery packs meaning you could swap to a fully charged and go again. This obviously comes with a lot of sacrifice compared to a gas burner and would rule a lot of customers out but be acceptable to a good few others. From there on it could only get better I suppose.
 
#2 regarding weight- You are wrong regarding Mazda Rotaries; an OEM Mazda Renesis engine (w/o cooling & exhaust) weighs slightly less than 200 lbs. dry. The redrive, cooling, and exhaust systems brings it up to ~350 lbs, close to the O-320/360, however, the potential peak power output is closer to an O-540 (250+hp).

#4- regarding simplicity... One of the things I like best about the rotary is its inherent simplicity- only 3 "beefy" moving parts, that see none of the stresses caused by the constant acceleration reversals seen in reciprocating engines. Rotary engines do not catastrophically break down and stop like most other designs when run as designed. Worst case, they continue to RUN at lower power, but still get you home. When broken (low compression), they will not start.

Unfortunately the Renesis has not had great press in the real world- exhibiting very high oil consumption and premature wear, not to mention shockingly poor mileage in the RX8 sports car, despite being run at much leaner mixtures than past rotaries. Long term tests by both R&T and C&D have outlined these problem areas. Friends in the Wankel engine building business have also confirmed the Renesis is nowhere near as durable in hard street use as the earlier 13Bs. It should also be noted that the Renesis cannot achieve its rated power either with the 2.85 drive ratio and 2700 rpm prop limit. This is simply the fault of the drive ratios chosen and affect piston engines similarly. You want to make full rated power, you must choose the proper drive ratio. It is unlikely that anyone is going to twist a Renesis to 8500 rpm to match IO-540 hp levels in aviation use.

The RX8 has not sold well at all. While styling might have something to do with it, competitors such as the BMW 335, Lexus IS350 and various VG35 powered Nissan and Infiniti models outperform the Mazda in performance, fuel economy and it seems longevity as well. Modern direct injection, gasoline piston engines are at a very high level of refinement and performance. In ultimate hp turbo form, the Wankel has been entirely supplanted by piston engines such as the Toyota 2JZ and Ecotec which are capable of approximately double the hp of the best 13Bs.

In aircraft use, I'm not aware of any catastrophic internal failures of Wankels but there have been a fair number of soft failures which resulted in forced landings. Keeping these engines fresh inside is just as important as with piston engines. Typically, we rarely see catastrophic piston engine failures these days in the automotive field. In aviation, system and redrive failures lead the list of accident causes, not core engine problems.

Tracy has recently upgraded his drives with 6 planet gears to address strength and durability issues with higher power and rpm levels.

Just as with piston auto engines, Wankels converted for use in aviation seem best limited to lower rpms (6000-6500) for longevity. In this zone they have been proven by Tracy Crook and others to perform decently. I remain to be convinced that they can match the fuel economy/ speed of a Lycoming. I'd love it if Tracy would do a fly off at Van's like the Powersport RV8s did a few years back to see what a well developed example can do. That would be very interesting.:)

In the meantime, Wankels are an interesting alternative to piston engines but have their disadvantages and advantages the same as any other engine.
 
Last edited:
Ross,
(I believe) your Renesis comments mostly do not apply to our use. Aircraft apps with the Wankel generally do not use the OEM oil injection pumps, which create most of the automotive problems- they burn "dirty burning" crankcase oil to cool rotors which gums up the seals and affects lubrication. Aircraft apps mix 2-cycle oil (clean burning) with the fuel for cooling the rotors and use synthetic oil in the crankcase.

The high power rotaries generally are modified to a peripheral port intake arrangement. IMHO, the Wankel is a far better aircraft engine than automotive, and they love turbocharging. The exotic high-power racing mods are not needed for most RVs, though turbos might be nice for flying high or possibly in an RV10.

The Renesis is a 13B, with a big fancy intake manifold added to improve low end torque; it is best replaced with a tube intake tuned to ~6000 rpm. The Renesis intake ports use an improved (enlarged) side port design, which improves breathing over earlier designs, but still not quite as efficient as peripheral porting can be. The downside to the Renesis is that they run a bit hotter than earlier designs (more exhaust port exposure), and adequate cooling is critical. The are also noticeably quieter.

Dont know where you got your info, there is no problem running a Renesis, or later 13B's for that matter, at 8500 rpm if the intake system is up to it; most target the 5000-7500 engine rpm range as you mentioned (5000 rpm is torque peak, 6000 is most efficient speed, 7200 is the 4-port max 210 hp, 8400 rpm is the 6-port Renesis max 230 hp). The prop turns 1800-2700 rpm at those engine speeds with the 2.85 redrive. Seems to me that is as close to ideal as we can get given normal the RV propeller selection. The guys flying like the 2.85 redrive and a big 74 to 76" fixed propeller. The 2.18 ratio reportedly did not allow full power generation. FWIW, the rotors rotate at 1/3 crankshaft speed, which is loafing compared to conventional piston speeds and wear rates.

Tracy has always used the 6-planetary gear set in his high-output RD-1B and 1C PRSU models. The 4 gear went in his baseline RD-1A unit, approved up to 200 hp I believe, which is no longer made nor needed.

The rest I agree completely with you. There have been a handful of development problems as you mentioned, mostly related to Tracy's "cheapo" cooling system problems (a/c parts and poor ducting) from what Ive gathered (I could be wrong). I add only that the rotary is still in its development phase, just like the Subaru's are, and that most of the kinks are/have finally been worked out in operating aircraft.
 
Ross,
(I believe) your Renesis comments mostly do not apply to our use. Aircraft apps with the Wankel generally do not use the OEM oil injection pumps, which create most of the automotive problems- they burn "dirty burning" crankcase oil to cool rotors which gums up the seals and affects lubrication. Aircraft apps mix 2-cycle oil (clean burning) with the fuel for cooling the rotors and use synthetic oil in the crankcase.

The high power rotaries generally are modified to a peripheral port intake arrangement. IMHO, the Wankel is a far better aircraft engine than automotive, and they love turbocharging. The exotic high-power racing mods are not needed for most RVs, though turbos might be nice for flying high or possibly in an RV10.

The Renesis is a 13B, with a big fancy intake manifold added to improve low end torque; it is best replaced with a tube intake tuned to ~6000 rpm. The Renesis intake ports use an improved (enlarged) side port design, which improves breathing over earlier designs, but still not quite as efficient as peripheral porting can be. The downside to the Renesis is that they run a bit hotter than earlier designs (more exhaust port exposure), and adequate cooling is critical. The are also noticeably quieter.

Dont know where you got your info, there is no problem running a Renesis, or later 13B's for that matter, at 8500 rpm if the intake system is up to it; most target the 5000-7500 engine rpm range as you mentioned (5000 rpm is torque peak, 6000 is most efficient speed, 7200 is the 4-port max 210 hp, 8400 rpm is the 6-port Renesis max 230 hp). The prop turns 1800-2700 rpm at those engine speeds with the 2.85 redrive. Seems to me that is as close to ideal as we can get given normal the RV propeller selection. The guys flying like the 2.85 redrive and a big 74 to 76" fixed propeller. The 2.18 ratio reportedly did not allow full power generation. FWIW, the rotors rotate at 1/3 crankshaft speed, which is loafing compared to conventional piston speeds and wear rates.

A fair comment on the pre-mix oil.

Rotaries have never loved turbocharging. While they respond very well hp wise, longevity at high outputs due to thermal concerns and turbocharger life have limited this form of power enhancement to low output street use and short duration drag use primarily. I'm not aware of any successful turbocharged road racing cars nor any turbocharged Wankels used in aircraft which have accumulated 500 hours without problems. I assisted John Slade on matching a proper Garrett turbo for his 13B Cozy some time ago but I don't think he even has 100 hours on this setup to date. Concerns with exhaust system cracking have again come to light already and turbine life may be an issue with the 1800F EGTs.

The Renesis engine makes power peak at 8400-8500 rpm hence my comment. Turning lower rpms would not allow this engine to produce competitive power with an IO-540. Longevity at near this sustained rpm is unproven in my view. Airplane engines should ideally go thousands of hours before overhaul, not hundreds. A 20B is a far more suitable choice for comparison to the big Lycoming.

My information on the RX8/ Renesis longevity issues come from 2 sources: Rob at Pineapple Racing http://www.pineappleracing.com/ and Paul Yaw at Yaw Power. http://www.yawpower.com/
Both have been heavily involved with Wankels for many years. Paul in fact received prototype engines from Japan for evaluation/ feedback before production release of the Renesis.

Rob has pulled and repaired or replaced several Renesis engines with as little as 40,000 miles on them. They were simply bagged out. His opinion was that 8500 rpm was an unrealistic redline for these engines in street use as delivered from Mazda.

I'll wait for that fly off with Tracy's new RV and engine before I'm convinced that Wankels are better than piston engines. Tracy has been the big force and innovator here so if anyone can do it, he can.:)
 
Whill I agree that an electric motor in a airplane would be ideal I will disagree on the weight of the electric vs the Lyc. I run several electric motors that are 50 and some that are 100 HP and they are heavy. I would guess that the 50 HP weighs around 400 pounds and the 100 wieghs close to 550 pounds. These are on irrigation wells so must be able to run 24-7 for several months at a time, maybe they are made heaver for that reason.
The wires coming to these motors are a big as your index finger, however they cost about 70% less to run then diesel motors of the same size.
Well, here is an area that takes some knowledgeable analysis. When comparing the output of an electric motor with the output of an Internal Combustion engine the electric motor will put out much more power/HP than will an IC engine.

Primarily because of the greater efficiencies of the electric motor it does not need to have the same HP rating as an internal combustion engine in order to produce the same output of power. I am sure there are mathematicians or engineers out there that can chime in with the specific HP numbers needed for an electric motor if it is to replace say a 100 HP IC engine. Generally speaking an IC engine rated for 100 HP can be replaced with an electric motor that may be rated for say 25 HP (someone please correct me if this number is way off).

When comparing weights of comparable IC engines and electric motors one must make sure the comparison is for engines with equal outputs. Your 50 and 100 HP electric motors would better be compared to 400-600 ci IC engines (180-300 HP) rather than the 235-360 ci IC engines (115-180) typically used in RV's. Because of this the weight savings will be due to the fact you will be using a smaller electric motor to produce the same level of power output as you would with an IC engine. Not to mention the reduction in weight for all of the other peripheral components needed for the operation of an IC engine (i.e. starter, oil cooler, radiator, carburetor, exhaust, fuel pump, fuel lines, fuel filters, magnetos, etc.)
 
1. Rotaries will never have similar BSFC to a piston engine because they simply convert less heat into power, as a result of their design. This is why they respond disproportionately well to turbocharging. Of course retaining that heat also causes them problems.

2. You of course can always make the radiators bigger, but in an airplane the limiting factor is drag, a bigger radiator requires more air, which requires more drag. As it is, because of the multiple heat exchanges, water cooling will require more air to remove heat from the rads..as a funtcion of built up heat enrgy during the multiple transfers, and as a result of the lower delta T at the radiator.

3. Running a roatary lean of peak, even severely does not change the fuel consumption issue, because it is a function of power. When you run LOP, you also reduce total available thermal energy. Since the engine already converts less of the thermal energy to power anyway, LOP is not going to change the equation. If you need 125 ftlbs of torque for a certain flight regime, it requires a certain amount of fuel to create that power. Now, if an engine converts a smaller percentage of ingested fuel into work...less thermodynamically efficient, it requires more fuel at intake to convert enough of it for the required power. The fact that it will tolerate a leaner mixture does not change the basic thermodynamic nature of the engine. Even when done by the best rotary conversions are gas guzzlers (literally) by comparison.

4. Say what you want about weight...no installation data to support your assertion.

5. As for air cooling...totally miss the point...all aircraft engines are cooled solely by the flow of air. It can be either direct, over the engine, with a high delta T, increasing the exchange rate, or through rads with a less optimal exchange rate. Before you go warbird on me, remember that there were other packaging concerns there.

6. You talk about different performance levels, I assume you mean specific output. But why? No matter how you slice it the internal forces of an engine increase linearly as a function of weight, and increase exponentially as a function of speed. The accelerations at twice the rpm are FOUR times greater. Even if components (pistons rods, etc.) are much lighter, the stresses will always be higher at hig RPM. And Why? If a slow turning, big bore, direct drive, will power the plane throughout its flight regime, and at lower weight, what is the advantage to turning up the wick on specific output? Is it a real pleasure to have to add a new flight critical system like a redrive?

Is a rotary a cool engine? ABSOLUTELY
Have they been able to achieve some great outputs in racing trim? Absolutely.

Is it smoother?...maybe, they have their own vibration... in the early formula mazda cars, the vibration would pulvarize the welds on the steel chasis, and until you got used to it, would leave the driver feeling assaulted at the end of a race.

If you think its cool fine, if you want "modern" engine management designed for an operation regime you will NEVER use in an aircraft...great.

It is what experimenting is about. But if you want simplicity, light weight, reliablility, and durability...all with the best speed/fuel numbers money can buy, put an aircraft engine it.

One exception...I'm waiting to see how Ross's 10 does...his scoop work looks promising, and the thing is turbocharged.
 
Compromise

The perfect airplane is elusive beacuse for every good feature there is a compromise. Everyone should have a minimum of two aircraft Low and Slow and High and Fast. I only have an RV-4, so I fly Low and F A S T ! That's my compromise. It isn't as fun to watch the Minnesota leaves right now at 180 MPH, but hey, I'm going 180 MPH!

I think the RV-4 with the 0-360 and a constant speed prop is the best out there. I'm not as familiar with the latest RV's but the bigger engine recommended by vans with a variable pitch prop gives you the most bang for your buck, and a little extra. If cost is an issue, then go with the smaller engine and a wooden climb and cruise prop to give you options.
 
I/C engines v's electric

Well, here is an area that takes some knowledgeable analysis. When comparing the output of an electric motor with the output of an Internal Combustion engine the electric motor will put out much more power/HP than will an IC engine.

Primarily because of the greater efficiencies of the electric motor it does not need to have the same HP rating as an internal combustion engine in order to produce the same output of power. I am sure there are mathematicians or engineers out there that can chime in with the specific HP numbers needed for an electric motor if it is to replace say a 100 HP IC engine. Generally speaking an IC engine rated for 100 HP can be replaced with an electric motor that may be rated for say 25 HP (someone please correct me if this number is way off).

When comparing weights of comparable IC engines and electric motors one must make sure the comparison is for engines with equal outputs. Your 50 and 100 HP electric motors would better be compared to 400-600 ci IC engines (180-300 HP) rather than the 235-360 ci IC engines (115-180) typically used in RV's. Because of this the weight savings will be due to the fact you will be using a smaller electric motor to produce the same level of power output as you would with an IC engine. Not to mention the reduction in weight for all of the other peripheral components needed for the operation of an IC engine (i.e. starter, oil cooler, radiator, carburetor, exhaust, fuel pump, fuel lines, fuel filters, magnetos, etc.)

Steve in just about all cases you are correct. However in this case maybe not. The one diesel engine we replaced with electric was a 90 hp and the other one was a 125 hp. Both of these diesels were replaced with 100 hp electric. Both these diesel engines were about 350 ci and were industural rated, this being the difference. If you would stick these engines in a car they would call them 350 - 400hp. They developed their hp at about 2100 rpm.
 
Subie STI half price sale...

You should really read the previous discussions on this...it has all been hashed out before.

1. All engines are air cooled in the end...with a rad it is just that an intermediary transfer is used...coolant...which means two additional heat transfers 1. engine to water, and 2. water to rad, before the air can cool the rad. Each transfer is less than 100% efficient which means that by the time it gets to the rad you have some additional cooling needs. When the air interacts with the rad, it is at a much lower delta T, which means a greater volume of air is required to achieve the same cooling in terms of heat energy removed.

2. Weight has been hashed again and again, the "heavy" cranks and such in an aircraft engine do not result in heavier packages...as noted many times the car engine will result in a hundred pounds or more installed weight. This is being generous.

3. There is no documented fuel burn/ performance advantage, and in the RV class of aircraft, just the opposite.

However, you can expect smoother operation, and easier starting.

Back to the original question, to me it is all about speed/fuel burn, and the most simple installation possible. Simple, not because I am afraid of instalation and the work, but rather because the simple solution ought always be preferred over the complex, from a reliability standpoint.
[/QUOTE]
I am paraphrasing, but some smart person said "If you want to experiment, get a Subie, Chev, etc... but if you want to fly, go Lyco."

Here's a post just today on VAF Classified that begs the question "Why would a guy with $40K invested be selling same for half price?" Too much power? err... throttle it back..

Jerry

jim skala Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hartselle, Alabama
Posts: 3

Subaru STi FF package & MT prop give-away

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<<<My new Lyc 320 engine is due to be shipped the week of Oct. 21, so I relisted my Eggenfellner STi (4-cyl, over 200 HP) on eBay for $20,000, including MTV-7 CS prop. $20K is less than half of what I have invested in it to date. It is way too much engine for a 9, but should do fine for a 7A. At this point, I simply need to get it out of the shop to make room for the Aero Sport Power 320 Lyc engine.>>
 
Last edited:
Wankel engines???

I always think it's hilarious that the Rotary fan-boys always think the slider-crank mechanism of a piston engine is a problem in need of a solution.

Of all the parts in a piston engine, the crank, rods and pistons are probably the most reliable and low-wear-rate components in an engine. It is so well understood, can deliver a good approximation to the ideal combustion chamber shape and is so easily manufactured that it simply doesn't require any futher inventive attention.

The wankel engine, on the other hand, has had more than half a century of development and it's still struggling to make it as a serious engine concept.

A
 
I always think it's hilarious that the Rotary fan-boys always think the slider-crank mechanism of a piston engine is a problem in need of a solution.

Of all the parts in a piston engine, the crank, rods and pistons are probably the most reliable and low-wear-rate components in an engine. It is so well understood, can deliver a good approximation to the ideal combustion chamber shape and is so easily manufactured that it simply doesn't require any futher inventive attention.

The wankel engine, on the other hand, has had more than half a century of development and it's still struggling to make it as a serious engine concept.

A

I totally agree. Wankel advocates are always talking about piston and rod failures on piston engines and how high Wankels can rev. Not sure where these ideas come from. F1 engines rev to 19,000 rpm and your modern production piston engine never has failures like this if kept within factory rev limits. They also don't use any oil between changes, get excellent mileage and outlast the chassis in most cases. Hard to beat a century+ of evolution.

I believe you should fly what you like and I like to see anything different flying, including Wankels. Let's just stick to the facts on advantages/ disadvantages of engine types.
 
Steve in just about all cases you are correct. However in this case maybe not. The one diesel engine we replaced with electric was a 90 hp and the other one was a 125 hp. Both of these diesels were replaced with 100 hp electric. Both these diesel engines were about 350 ci and were industural rated, this being the difference. If you would stick these engines in a car they would call them 350 - 400hp. They developed their hp at about 2100 rpm.
Well this kind of proves the point I was attempting to make. You are replacing Diesel engines with a real world HP output in the 350-400 HP range with an electric motor that has a real world HP rating of 100 HP. Comparing HP ratings on A/C electric motors with HP ratings on an internal combustion engine (be it gasoline or diesel) is not a straight across the board comparison. There are many additional factors that have to be evaluated before one can directly address what size electric motor can replace what size IC engine.
 
Well this kind of proves the point I was attempting to make. You are replacing Diesel engines with a real world HP output in the 350-400 HP range with an electric motor that has a real world HP rating of 100 HP. Comparing HP ratings on A/C electric motors with HP ratings on an internal combustion engine (be it gasoline or diesel) is not a straight across the board comparison. There are many additional factors that have to be evaluated before one can directly address what size electric motor can replace what size IC engine.

I'm not sure I follow. If I need to run a pump at a certain flow rate and pressure rise I need to supply the pump with a certain amount of torque at a given rpm. Doesn't matter if the thing turning the pump is powered by diesel fuel or electrons. I guess it's possible that people are operating disels WAY out of their optimum range, and therefore having to use bigger engines (also out of their ideal powerband...).
 
And also running them at way less than full rated power, in the interest of long life. An electric motor rated for 5 hp (or 50, or 150) will deliver that power or a large percentage of it for it's entire life - because it's designed to. MOST (not all) IC engines are rated for maximum possible output - but not designed to keep it up. A 150 hp automotive engine will NOT last very long running at full power, but will last basically forever running at 30% load. Aircraft engines are the exception to this rule - they are designed to operate at a large percentage of maximum power for their entire life.
 
A 150 hp automotive engine will NOT last very long running at full power

This is a fallacy. IME, most OEM's require a high speed durability test (max power) of at least 200hrs and the engine is required to be fully functional and within tolerances at the end of it. The only reason they don't go on and on is because usually things that are going to break will have broken by then. Wear under these conditions is usually pretty low.

I have run test engines on dynos (for engine controller calibration) to well over 1000hrs before changing them. They don't usually suffer that much unless you operate in a region where there are known vibration-related problems.

A
 
I saw/talked with a guy at Copperstate who displayed a (heavy v/8) Chevy LT1 engine, belt drive + IVO prop installed in a Lancair. I thought it interesting that he ran it at only 3600 rpm in cruise at ~ 190 mph. Lower rpm than I would have expected, well within the normal automotive engine operating envelope.

Another note, Tracy Crook has over 1600 hours now in his rotary powered RV4; the original engine was well within tolerance and running well when replaced at 1000 hours. Original engine was an old junkyard-sourced 1988 engine with 70,000 original miles on it- received cheap apex seal replacement and cleanup when Tracy installed in his plane. That combo won several SNF class races with a marginally-effective 3-motorcycle carb setup @~160hp. Thanks to Tracy's documented efforts, we have a copyable proven installation with electronic FI and programmable engine control, reliable redrives available; and are now aware of potential "faults" to make our installations more reliable.

The use 2-cycle oil, mixed with fuel (instead of the OEM crankcase oil feed), greatly extends engine life and keeps internals clean.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure I follow. If I need to run a pump at a certain flow rate and pressure rise I need to supply the pump with a certain amount of torque at a given rpm. Doesn't matter if the thing turning the pump is powered by diesel fuel or electrons. I guess it's possible that people are operating disels WAY out of their optimum range, and therefore having to use bigger engines (also out of their ideal powerband...).
What does matter is the efficiency of the particular engine to produce that power. There are a couple of factors affecting the type of engine used. The electric motor has a conversion of electric energy to motion somewhere in the neighborhood of 98%. That means for every unit of energy put into the motor to produce motion 98% of that energy is used for motion, the rest is waste in the form of heat. In an IC engine ~25-30% of the energy put into it comes out as motion. The rest is wasted as heat. This is one of the primary reasons why an electric motor does not have to be sized the same as an IC engine when configuring it for a specific power need (i.e. supplying a pump with a certain amount of torque).

Another factor is the way in which torque is produced in an electric motor vs. an IC engine. An electric motor will produce almost 100% torque at every RPM range it runs in. Even an electric motor turning at 1 RPM will produce almost 100% of its maximum torque. An IC engine has a specific torque band at which it produces the maximum torque. The maximum torque will only be produced at a specific RPM range with the IC engine. If you want torque then an electric motor is going to be the best device for producing it.

And also running them at way less than full rated power, in the interest of long life. An electric motor rated for 5 hp (or 50, or 150) will deliver that power or a large percentage of it for it's entire life - because it's designed to. MOST (not all) IC engines are rated for maximum possible output - but not designed to keep it up. A 150 hp automotive engine will NOT last very long running at full power, but will last basically forever running at 30% load. Aircraft engines are the exception to this rule - they are designed to operate at a large percentage of maximum power for their entire life.
This is also another reason for looking at smaller HP ratings for electric motors vs. IC engines. Again it has a lot to do with the efficiencies of utilizing energy. The electric motor is about three fold more efficient than an IC engine in producing work from the energy that is input into it.
 
One or two ounces per gallon?

I bought my Lyc from an A@P/IA in Macon, Ga. who had rebuilt his own Mazda rotary. He mentioned that adding a little two-stroke oil really improved longevity tremendously. Don't recall exactly but I believe it was around 1 or 2 ouces/gal. He went on to say that you could run them out of water if a hose ruptured and they wouldn't sieze either but would be junk after you landed. This true?

Pierre
 
Pierre,
The problem with crankcase derived oil being burned is that it leaves a lot of ash and sludge behind, which hardens (im guessing it is carbonized, probably similar to the coking problems we see in turbocharger bearings). The gunk messes with the apex seals and springs, which eventually affects their sealing ability. Most of the "junked" automotive motors are loaded with the sludge and generally need to be rebuilt (actually cleaned out and seals replaced, abt $600 in parts unless the rotor housings are damaged). 2-cycle oil is formulated to burn clean.

Most older 13B's (with peripheral exhaust ports) mix the oil at about 1oz:gallon fuel ratio. The Renesis motor does well at 0.75oz/gal, supposedly because the side intake/exhaust ports better support and lubricate the apex seals.

Rotary engines have two oil systems, a pressurized sump to lubricate the internal bearings, and a second "drip" system to cool/lubricate the rotors. As I understand it, the rotary engine oil must be kept cooler than approximately 200 degrees to prevent the OEM cover outer seal O-ring from breaking down. If that seal is compromised, the rotors lose some compression. The engine WILL continue to run (at lower power levels) until it is shut down, but because of the low compression, the engine will not restart until the seal is replaced. FWIW, improved after market silicone coated Teflon O-ring seals are available that run at higher temps.

Because the cast iron rotor expands less than the aluminum housing when hot, losing water cooling will overheat the engine and damage the oil seal, but as you mentioned, the engine will not seize (remember, the rotors are cooled/lubricated by the oil/fuel mixture) and will continue to run, but at at approx 60% power, until the engine is shut down. BTW, I have never heard of anyone rotary losing all coolant (top quality hoses and welded aluminum radiators are recommended), a slow leak and possible loss of water pressure is more likely as in a radiator hole.

IMHO, this is a huge reason why the rotary engine is safer than most other designs in an aircraft. There are fewer mechanical scenarios that can end with a catastrophic failure- only loss of ignition/fuel supply failure which are factors in any engine. No valves, piston burning, rod breakage, cyl head cracks, etc, to worry about. The 3 beefy rotary engine parts don't break.
 
Last edited:
What does matter is the efficiency of the particular engine to produce that power. There are a couple of factors affecting the type of engine used. The electric motor has a conversion of electric energy to motion somewhere in the neighborhood of 98%. That means for every unit of energy put into the motor to produce motion 98% of that energy is used for motion, the rest is waste in the form of heat. In an IC engine ~25-30% of the energy put into it comes out as motion. The rest is wasted as heat. This is one of the primary reasons why an electric motor does not have to be sized the same as an IC engine when configuring it for a specific power need (i.e. supplying a pump with a certain amount of torque).

Another factor is the way in which torque is produced in an electric motor vs. an IC engine. An electric motor will produce almost 100% torque at every RPM range it runs in. Even an electric motor turning at 1 RPM will produce almost 100% of its maximum torque. An IC engine has a specific torque band at which it produces the maximum torque. The maximum torque will only be produced at a specific RPM range with the IC engine. If you want torque then an electric motor is going to be the best device for producing it.

This is also another reason for looking at smaller HP ratings for electric motors vs. IC engines. Again it has a lot to do with the efficiencies of utilizing energy. The electric motor is about three fold more efficient than an IC engine in producing work from the energy that is input into it.

Your first paragraph is WAY off. You're confusing efficiency with power. engines are rated by their OUTPUT power, not their input power. In other words, it takes 105 hp worth of electricity to run a 100hp motor, but about 350 hp worth of diesel or gas to run an IC engine, but the out put of each (at it's peak) is still 100 hp.
 
Your first paragraph is WAY off. You're confusing efficiency with power. engines are rated by their OUTPUT power, not their input power. In other words, it takes 105 hp worth of electricity to run a 100hp motor, but about 350 hp worth of diesel or gas to run an IC engine, but the out put of each (at it's peak) is still 100 hp.
I have to admit I am not sure what you are saying when you say
it takes 105 hp worth of electricity to run a 100hp motor, but about 350 hp worth of diesel or gas to run an IC engine
Reading this verbatim this does not make sense to me. I am not familiar with measuring the potential "power" of electricity, diesel or gasoline in terms of "potential" HP production capacity.

Perhaps it is just in the wording. I will openly admit to not being an engineer but what you are saying does not sound any different than what I am saying. If the ultimate goal is to have output power that is measured at 100 HP then I acquiesce to your statement (at least to what I think is your statement). It will take a 105 HP electric motor and a 350 HP IC engine. Which is what I was saying.

An electric motor is approximately three fold more efficient than an IC engine. I discuss the issue of efficiency because it is this efficiency that is important to know about when you end up "sizing" a particular engine for the amount of output needed for the application. If one needs 100 HP output one needs to know how efficient a particular setup is at producing that 100 HP. If one knows that the IC engine rated for 350 HP will only be able to produce the needed torque when that engine reaches the 100 HP mark then one will have to chose this "oversized" power plant for the task. This is because that engine will end up running at 30% of its maximum HP output rating when operating at its optimum torque output range.

On the other hand if one knows that the efficiency of an electric motor is 98% of the rated output HP then one chooses a 105 HP electric motor. This motor can produce the needed torque while running at 100% of its maximum HP output rating. Both scenarios get you the needed 100 HP output. One just does it much more efficiently than the other.

Now this discussion holds true if you measure efficiency in terms of the ratio of energy input to energy output. The reality is efficiency can be defined with many other variables as well. Perhaps one wants to look at efficiency in terms of how much an operator knows about the system and how easily can he work on that system. Then the efficiency would take on a different meaning.

Perhaps if we define efficiency in terms of the capability to supply electricity to a moving airplane then maybe we would define efficiency differently. At present it is much more efficient to supply diesel or gasoline to an IC engine in an airplane than it is to supply electricity to an electric motor in an airplane. We do not have practical mechanisms in place to feed electric motors in such a mobile platform. Therefore the overall "efficiency" of the electric motor for an airplane power plant is not very good right now even though the "energy conversion" efficiency of electric motors is still much higher than IC engines.

These last examples of "efficiency" are reasons why we currently are not able to put electric motors in airplanes. However when attempting to "size" a power plant for a stationary ground based operation, the efficiency of the input/output energy ratio is going to be an important one to consider.
 
I am not familiar with measuring the potential "power" of electricity, diesel or gasoline in terms of "potential" HP production capacity.
That is what defines efficiency in any engine, gear, propeller or whatever. Efficiency = usable power / available power, or the fraction of what you get out of the engine over what you put in to it. It is always measured in units of power (W usually), not in units of energy. An electric motor converts electric power to mechanical power. But you can also use an electric motor to convert electric energy from a battery for instance - to mechanical energy in a flywheel :D and then you can measure the efficiency of the energy conversion (this will be much less than the efficiency of the electric motor).

Energy is not power, these are two very different concepts in general, and particularly when talking about engines.

Othervise, it seems to me you got it right.
 
I have to admit I am not sure what you are saying when you say Reading this verbatim this does not make sense to me. I am not familiar with measuring the potential "power" of electricity, diesel or gasoline in terms of "potential" HP production capacity.

Perhaps it is just in the wording. I will openly admit to not being an engineer but what you are saying does not sound any different than what I am saying. If the ultimate goal is to have output power that is measured at 100 HP then I acquiesce to your statement (at least to what I think is your statement). It will take a 105 HP electric motor and a 350 HP IC engine. Which is what I was saying.

An electric motor is approximately three fold more efficient than an IC engine. I discuss the issue of efficiency because it is this efficiency that is important to know about when you end up "sizing" a particular engine for the amount of output needed for the application. If one needs 100 HP output one needs to know how efficient a particular setup is at producing that 100 HP. If one knows that the IC engine rated for 350 HP will only be able to produce the needed torque when that engine reaches the 100 HP mark then one will have to chose this "oversized" power plant for the task. This is because that engine will end up running at 30% of its maximum HP output rating when operating at its optimum torque output range.

On the other hand if one knows that the efficiency of an electric motor is 98% of the rated output HP then one chooses a 105 HP electric motor. This motor can produce the needed torque while running at 100% of its maximum HP output rating. Both scenarios get you the needed 100 HP output. One just does it much more efficiently than the other.

Now this discussion holds true if you measure efficiency in terms of the ratio of energy input to energy output. The reality is efficiency can be defined with many other variables as well. Perhaps one wants to look at efficiency in terms of how much an operator knows about the system and how easily can he work on that system. Then the efficiency would take on a different meaning.

Perhaps if we define efficiency in terms of the capability to supply electricity to a moving airplane then maybe we would define efficiency differently. At present it is much more efficient to supply diesel or gasoline to an IC engine in an airplane than it is to supply electricity to an electric motor in an airplane. We do not have practical mechanisms in place to feed electric motors in such a mobile platform. Therefore the overall "efficiency" of the electric motor for an airplane power plant is not very good right now even though the "energy conversion" efficiency of electric motors is still much higher than IC engines.

These last examples of "efficiency" are reasons why we currently are not able to put electric motors in airplanes. However when attempting to "size" a power plant for a stationary ground based operation, the efficiency of the input/output energy ratio is going to be an important one to consider.

Hmmm, I think I just stated it poorly.

An IC engine runs at something like 33% efficiency. To get 100 hp out in the form of mechanical power (that is; work per time) you need to put in 300 hp worth of chemical energy. A fuel has a certain energy content per kg, this is what determines how many kg of fuel you need per second. The engine converts about 67% of the chemical potental energy of the fuel into heat (hot exhaust and cooling heat) and 33% into mechanical work.

An electric motor runs at something like 95% efficiency. To get 100 hp out in the form of mechanical power (again, work per time) you have put in 105 hp worth of electricity. The electric motor converts about 95% of the potential energy of the electricity into work, and 5% into waste heat.

An electric motor that is producing an output of 100 hp of mechanical power (essentially just torque X rpm) isn't doing anything different than an IC engine producing 100hp of mechanical power, it's just that the IC engine is using alot more energy to make 100hp than the motor.

If you pick a steady state operating point where an IC engine is rated at 100 hp, then it can be exactly replaced at that point by a 100 hp electric motor, no more, no less. That's just how much power it takes to turn your pump a certain speed (or a certain prop at a certain speed).

Now I agree that if you can take an IC engine that's rated at 300 hp peak at 5000rpm (which would be the rating in the procure) that only makes 100 hp at 2000 rpm and replace it with a 100 hp, 2000 rpm electric motor. If your application only requires 100 hp at 2000 rpm, you could just replace the 300 hp engine with one that's rated at a PEAK of 100hp at 2000 rpm. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the load (the irrigation pump, the prop, etc) doesn't know anything about how the power is produced. IF you are able to replace a 300 hp (peak) IC engine with a 100 hp motor, it's not because the power produced by elec. motors is different, it's because whoever originally designed the system did a bad job of matching an engine to the load.

(...I think you understood this, and were just misunderstanding me, but i had to hash it out for myself, anyway...)

Edit: I re-read your last post, and now I understand. You are confusing "efficiency" (energy in/energy out) with "usability" (usable power/power available). In my example, the last 200 hp in the engine is unavailable at 2000 rpm because it can only be produced by the engine above that rpm. This is totally separate from the fact that the motor is ALSO more efficient.
 
Last edited:
Edit: I re-read your last post, and now I understand. You are confusing "efficiency" (energy in/energy out) with "usability" (usable power/power available). In my example, the last 200 hp in the engine is unavailable at 2000 rpm because it can only be produced by the engine above that rpm. This is totally separate from the fact that the motor is ALSO more efficient.
I think we are both on the same page. Just attempting to explain it with different words. I don't think I was thinking in terms of "usability" though. I was thinking in terms of the fact that energy is neither created nor destroyed. There is energy in the chemical form of diesel and gasoline. There is energy in the flow of electrons. We design our machines for the purpose of converting that chemical or electrical energy into kinetic energy (motion). This conversion from one form of energy into another was the "efficiency" I was thinking about.

Anyway, as both of us have stated, I believe we are pretty much in agreement about the topic.
 
I think the problem arguing efficiency involving electrical equipment is that most take a narrow view and assume electricity originates at the wall plug... There are huge energy losses that involve generation, transmission, and storage in the grid. Storage weight is the killer for aircraft use.

I do wonder about one possibility however- linking a generator to a turbocharger as a way to compound waste heat energy, to add power to the primary power source and possibly increase overall efficiency.
 
I think the problem arguing efficiency involving electrical equipment is that most take a narrow view and assume electricity originates at the wall plug... There are huge energy losses that involve generation, transmission, and storage in the grid. Storage weight is the killer for aircraft use.
I agree that there is some losses from production through transmission to final delivery of electricity. This is another one of those ways to measure "efficiency" that I referred to earlier. Looking at efficiency one can take on many perspectives to define it.

I do wonder about one possibility however- linking a generator to a turbocharger as a way to compound waste heat energy, to add power to the primary power source and possibly increase overall efficiency.
Seems to be there would be a weight penalty that would be hard to overcome. Perhaps if one designed the aircraft to be able to carry the extra weight there could be enough energy recovery to make it worthwhile. I think the aircraft would have to be designed around the power plant and not the other way around though.
 
I do wonder about one possibility however- linking a generator to a turbocharger as a way to compound waste heat energy, to add power to the primary power source and possibly increase overall efficiency.
That is exactly what the turbo+intercooler in a diesel engine do, increases both HP and efficiency. A gasoline engine will allways hit the wall efficiency vise due to limited max compression rate, turbo or not.
 
rcraft use.

I do wonder about one possibility however- linking a generator to a turbocharger as a way to compound waste heat energy, to add power to the primary power source and possibly increase overall efficiency.

Turbocompounding has been in use for 60 years where turbines are linked back into the crankshaft through gearsets and fluid couplings. Wright and Allison had engines with this technology. This was recently rediscovered and employed on some new heavy diesel truck engines. BMW and others are now experimenting with it also. Something like 10% is recoverable from the exhaust stream. Neat but complicated.
 
Turbocompounding has been in use for 60 years where turbines are linked back into the crankshaft through gearsets and fluid couplings. Wright and Allison had engines with this technology. This was recently rediscovered and employed on some new heavy diesel truck engines. BMW and others are now experimenting with it also. Something like 10% is recoverable from the exhaust stream. Neat but complicated.

Ah yes, that would be the infamous "Parts Recovery Turbine" on the Wrights. Good workable technology once the bugs were found and corrected.
 
Simplicity

I know this is going to be an open ended question. What attributes/specifications make an engine good for aviation ?

IMHO and in order are a long front bearing as found in Lycoming and Continental engines, Low weight, few moving parts and full power development at fairly low RPM.
 
Turbo compound?

I recall that the max reliability of piston engines, even at their Zenith in the 50's was always measure in a few 1000 hours. Engine failures where not unheard of. Where turbines (jets) go 10,000's of thousand hours with great reliability, less maintence and fewer parts. Engine failure or shut downs are rare, new making events. Turbo compound engines where and are still very complicated. I would dispute they worked the bugs out, they simply became irrelevant when jet power took over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-compound_engine.

The idea of back driving a turbine through a piston engine requiring a gear box or two, is heavy and complicated. Somewhat like jets you have to get large scale enough to justify it. For small HP engines this makes no sense, IMHO.
 
Last edited:
I think the sheer complexity of the Wright R3350 had more to do with failures and shutdowns rather than the 3 PRTs. When you have thousands of parts whirring around, something will have to give.

Detroit Diesel and Daimler Benz are introducing new turbocompounded models and one other one I can't remember the name of has been in production for over 5 years. They are saying fuel savings of 5-8% on a diesel- probably bigger gains on a gasoline engine which has lower thermal efficiency to start. I think the Allison V12 TC model was seeing something over 10% lower fuel flows for the same shaft hp. Viable technology you will probably see more of on bigger engines in the future.
 
Scania has been using turbocompounding for some years in their mid sized inline 6 truck engines. A rather complicated thing with reduction gearing and a clutch. The turbine rotates at 55000 rpm.
 
Back
Top