Van's Air Force
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subaru engines? school me...
- Thread starter the4ork
- Start date
pierre smith
Well Known Member
Here
Hi Richard,
You can start here.......http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/ and then use the "search" button on this page top and type in subaru or whatever. This subject has been/is being beaten to death.
Regards,
PS HI Robbie.........
Hi Richard,
You can start here.......http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/ and then use the "search" button on this page top and type in subaru or whatever. This subject has been/is being beaten to death.
Regards,
PS HI Robbie.........
My best friend is flying a Subbie in his RV6. It flys great, very smooth & plenty of power. However, it has not been without real perserverence on his part. He is very intelligent on this issue, a lesser person would be in very deep water. The things he considers and discusses are way over my head or ability, I generally just nod my head when he starts talking about the techincal issues and lend as much moral support as a friend does. One day due to people like him Subaru will be common and user friendly, but his road has been tough. I really admire him for his effort, but I opted for the old tech, Lycoming. I guess I am too old and weary to travel this road.
dan
Well Known Member
I just wonder about resale. Can you SELL an RV with an auto engine in it?
Consider the relatively high % of RVs out there that end up changing hands at some point. Whether the builder wants to build again, flying got too expensive, the builder is going to LSA, whatever...it happens. And we have to be honest with ourselves about that possibility/reality.
So in that light, will you be able to sell the plane and get a reasonable amount for it?
I do know one guy who bought a Subaru-equipped RV and flew it for a while. He is now building an RV-7, and he's putting a Lyc[lone] in it. To me that says something.
Consider the relatively high % of RVs out there that end up changing hands at some point. Whether the builder wants to build again, flying got too expensive, the builder is going to LSA, whatever...it happens. And we have to be honest with ourselves about that possibility/reality.
So in that light, will you be able to sell the plane and get a reasonable amount for it?
I do know one guy who bought a Subaru-equipped RV and flew it for a while. He is now building an RV-7, and he's putting a Lyc[lone] in it. To me that says something.
Alternative Engine resale?
I just wonder about resale. Can you SELL an RV with an auto engine in it?... So in that light, will you be able to sell the plane and get a reasonable amount for it?
QUOTE]
Dan: I am installing a Mazda 13B rotary in my 9A and if resale value was a priority with me, I wouldn't be doing it. Anyone who has watched Barnstormers etc. for the past few years has seen numerous RV's with alternative engines (whether Chevy, Mazda, or Subie) sold, that haven't commanded top dollar compared to one with a Lycoming. That is simply the nature of "market forces" at work, and how the average RV buyer views the product that is up for sale.
I have no illusions about ever selling my completed and flying 9A for top dollar w/the 13B; but why should I expect to when I will only have about $9.5K invested FWF (including the non FWF computer).
If someone is going to go the alternative engine route, they have to be doing it for themselves, and not for the benefit of a potential future buyer.
Doug Lomheim
9A, FWF
Ok City, OK
mikegraycmg
Well Known Member
subaru
I thought about it for a long time, but have, at least for now, decided to go a different way. You'll find, I think, a lot more kneejerk reactions than you will find hard data. A couple of years ago when I was looking at it, it was very difficult to find any performance data or weight and balance figures. Although I like the idea of using the auto engines very much, what I concluded was that the weight penalty was just too much to pay for what appeared to be marginal performance. Another factor that played a major role at the time was what I perceived to be a defensiveness and secretiveness on the part of the major seller of subaru for aircraft, and the difficulty of acquiring real data for comparison. Finally, it appeared to me at the time that not all of the kinks had been worked out.
That said, I still think that since we are building experimental aircraft, that experimenting ought to be encouraged. I still have time to reconsider before I buy an engine, but I think I'll go a more traditional route unless I find out that things have changed since I looked at it.
I thought about it for a long time, but have, at least for now, decided to go a different way. You'll find, I think, a lot more kneejerk reactions than you will find hard data. A couple of years ago when I was looking at it, it was very difficult to find any performance data or weight and balance figures. Although I like the idea of using the auto engines very much, what I concluded was that the weight penalty was just too much to pay for what appeared to be marginal performance. Another factor that played a major role at the time was what I perceived to be a defensiveness and secretiveness on the part of the major seller of subaru for aircraft, and the difficulty of acquiring real data for comparison. Finally, it appeared to me at the time that not all of the kinks had been worked out.
That said, I still think that since we are building experimental aircraft, that experimenting ought to be encouraged. I still have time to reconsider before I buy an engine, but I think I'll go a more traditional route unless I find out that things have changed since I looked at it.
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dan
Well Known Member
My knee jerks when I know two people personally who have auto engines in their RVs and have had off-airport landings.
I know one guy with a Lyclone who had off-airport landings due to P-mags -- at this point I still consider P-mags darn near as "experimental" as auto engines! (Sorry, just calling all of this like I see it.)
My hat is off to you guys who take the initiative to do it right and to create options for the rest of us. My advice to a NEW builder is just to consider your mission carefully.
John Clark
Well Known Member
It is your choice
Exactly! and consider the motivation. Some builders get into this because they want to build (and engineer) an airplane, some because they want an airplane to use. Nothing wrong with either one, but you need to decide where you are on the scale. Personally, I'm way over on the "want to go fly" side, so I have a stock Lycoming. If I had been interested in doing the development and engineering required to make an alternative engine work, I would have gone that way. It is just a case of what "floats your boat."
John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
Flying, and loving it!
KSBA
Exactly! and consider the motivation. Some builders get into this because they want to build (and engineer) an airplane, some because they want an airplane to use. Nothing wrong with either one, but you need to decide where you are on the scale. Personally, I'm way over on the "want to go fly" side, so I have a stock Lycoming. If I had been interested in doing the development and engineering required to make an alternative engine work, I would have gone that way. It is just a case of what "floats your boat."
John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
Flying, and loving it!
KSBA
Steve A
Well Known Member
Subaru: School me
Check out Gary Newsted's RV 9 site on Van's link website. Or click below.
http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/Builders_Journal.htm
Resale is a pretty good point. So is the high cost of 100LL. The subies run on 93 octane gasoline. If you start building right now, the landscape will be different when you complete your pride and joy. The panel I have in my plane would be different as the Garmin 396 has been updated with the 496 etc.
Steve Anderson
RV 7A Finishing
Subaru H-6
Lafayette, La
Check out Gary Newsted's RV 9 site on Van's link website. Or click below.
http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/Builders_Journal.htm
Resale is a pretty good point. So is the high cost of 100LL. The subies run on 93 octane gasoline. If you start building right now, the landscape will be different when you complete your pride and joy. The panel I have in my plane would be different as the Garmin 396 has been updated with the 496 etc.
Steve Anderson
RV 7A Finishing
Subaru H-6
Lafayette, La
John Clark
Well Known Member
Jerry Cochran
Well Known Member
92 Mogas in Lycos & Clones? Of Course!!
This is a recurring argument of auto engine users, i.e. "We can use Mogas"... Any number of Lycos and clones, like my Superior IO-360, regularly use 92 oct. Mogas. So it seems this argument for Subies and others are moot. What am I missing? Superior actually recommends use of Mogas in my engine, which is 8.5/1 compression. I have tested it extensively, stabilizing at 11,500' MSL, EGT, CHT, fuel burn, MAP/RPM, and then switching tanks from 100LL to Mogas. Noting changes, not by a smidgen... BTW, I test for alcohol, as should you.
So, now that the mogas argument is laid to rest, what other reason is there to use car engines for aircraft? Cost? Not hardly. Reliability? Nah... Only valid reason I can think of is simply the joy of experimenting, and that of course is very valid. I'd love to fool around with it, but can only afford one aircraft, and will not trust my family to the current state of non-aircraft engines.
Best wishes,
Jerry Cochran
This is a recurring argument of auto engine users, i.e. "We can use Mogas"... Any number of Lycos and clones, like my Superior IO-360, regularly use 92 oct. Mogas. So it seems this argument for Subies and others are moot. What am I missing? Superior actually recommends use of Mogas in my engine, which is 8.5/1 compression. I have tested it extensively, stabilizing at 11,500' MSL, EGT, CHT, fuel burn, MAP/RPM, and then switching tanks from 100LL to Mogas. Noting changes, not by a smidgen... BTW, I test for alcohol, as should you.
So, now that the mogas argument is laid to rest, what other reason is there to use car engines for aircraft? Cost? Not hardly. Reliability? Nah... Only valid reason I can think of is simply the joy of experimenting, and that of course is very valid. I'd love to fool around with it, but can only afford one aircraft, and will not trust my family to the current state of non-aircraft engines.
Best wishes,
Jerry Cochran
Steve A
Well Known Member
School me on Subaru
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve A
Check out Gary Newsted's RV 9 site on Van's link website. Or click below.
http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/Builders_Journal.htm
Resale is a pretty good point. So is the high cost of 100LL. The subies run on 93 octane gasoline. If you start building right now, the landscape will be different when you complete your pride and joy. The panel I have in my plane would be different as the Garmin 396 has been updated with the 496 etc.
Steve Anderson
RV 7A Finishing
Subaru H-6
Lafayette, La
Any reports since the last update 4 years ago?
Gary has over 400 hours on his Subaru H-4 RV 9A. The reason for showing Gary Newsted's site is this is where the Subaru installation info resides. I am just following up on the post of someone requesting info. Gary's website shows a good approach to electrical procedures. And your post is following up on what....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve A
Check out Gary Newsted's RV 9 site on Van's link website. Or click below.
http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/Builders_Journal.htm
Resale is a pretty good point. So is the high cost of 100LL. The subies run on 93 octane gasoline. If you start building right now, the landscape will be different when you complete your pride and joy. The panel I have in my plane would be different as the Garmin 396 has been updated with the 496 etc.
Steve Anderson
RV 7A Finishing
Subaru H-6
Lafayette, La
Any reports since the last update 4 years ago?
Gary has over 400 hours on his Subaru H-4 RV 9A. The reason for showing Gary Newsted's site is this is where the Subaru installation info resides. I am just following up on the post of someone requesting info. Gary's website shows a good approach to electrical procedures. And your post is following up on what....
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
Search it baby
This is not answering your question but, I'm gathering you did not check the archives, so I'll suggest the "search" feature in the tool bar above. Just put in a key word or words: subie, subaru, eggy, eggenfellner, NSI. Also put in mazda, rotary, wankel, water cooled......... the general alternative engine / lyc debate is relevant. Try google as well.
Of course you will get different opinions. Read it all. Than make your open mind up, and than make the best engine conversion and convert 20k into a lycoming.
My complaint of any alternative engine, including subie, in a nut shall (there are exceptions):
-Installed weight-aircraft empty wts typically & significantly heavier (affecting payload/acro)
-Cost-Not cheaper than a Lyc unless you do-it-your-self (more prop options, like hydraulic c/s for Lyc)
-Performance-generally slower than a Lyc powered RV and no fuel savings some fuel burn way more than Lyc
To answer the resale comment, I disagree that resale is good or comparable as a Lyc. There may be exceptions but typically this is true, but every dollar spent or more, on a Lyc powered RV, will come back to you. I have seen two alternative engine RV's sell (or not sell) for much less than typical market value. Who is going to work on your Subie installation at the airport? Lycomings are ubiquitous and parts and service are available every where.
Dear the4ork:
This is not answering your question but, I'm gathering you did not check the archives, so I'll suggest the "search" feature in the tool bar above. Just put in a key word or words: subie, subaru, eggy, eggenfellner, NSI. Also put in mazda, rotary, wankel, water cooled......... the general alternative engine / lyc debate is relevant. Try google as well.
Of course you will get different opinions. Read it all. Than make your open mind up, and than make the best engine conversion and convert 20k into a lycoming.
My complaint of any alternative engine, including subie, in a nut shall (there are exceptions):
-Installed weight-aircraft empty wts typically & significantly heavier (affecting payload/acro)
-Cost-Not cheaper than a Lyc unless you do-it-your-self (more prop options, like hydraulic c/s for Lyc)
-Performance-generally slower than a Lyc powered RV and no fuel savings some fuel burn way more than Lyc
To answer the resale comment, I disagree that resale is good or comparable as a Lyc. There may be exceptions but typically this is true, but every dollar spent or more, on a Lyc powered RV, will come back to you. I have seen two alternative engine RV's sell (or not sell) for much less than typical market value. Who is going to work on your Subie installation at the airport? Lycomings are ubiquitous and parts and service are available every where.
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N941WR
Legacy Member
One other thing to think about...
There is a Mazda rotary powered -6A at my airport and the guy has been flying it (tinkering with it) for years. He once told me that if you want an airplane to fly, put a Lycoming in it. If you want a hobby, put an auto engine in it. Good advice.
One other thing he said that surprised me, he has to do his bi-annuals in a rental unit as he can't find an instructor who will fly in his plane.
There is a Mazda rotary powered -6A at my airport and the guy has been flying it (tinkering with it) for years. He once told me that if you want an airplane to fly, put a Lycoming in it. If you want a hobby, put an auto engine in it. Good advice.
One other thing he said that surprised me, he has to do his bi-annuals in a rental unit as he can't find an instructor who will fly in his plane.
rvatornate
Active Member
Then he isn't looking in the right places.
Nathan Larson
N217JT RV9E 640 hours flying behind an Egg.
Instrument checkride done in the RV9E.
CFII Would be happy to do a biannual.
Back on Topic
Seems this guy was asking for info on Subes not a comparison with those "other" engines. Sounds like he is old enough to make up his own mind.
My flying RV6A site is here: http://www.sdsefi.com/air9.html
Here is our main aircraft page which has several flying Sube powered aircraft on it: http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
Here is a link to the main Sube group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FlySoob/
Here is my Sube powered RV10 project link: http://www.sdsefi.com/air46.htm
Yes, a properly engineered STI conversion would make a great RV powerplant but be prepared for a lot more work than dropping in a Lycoming. People do things for many different reasons. If you want to do more than rivet together a fine kit from Vans, this will give you a real education.
If I can help in any way, drop me a PM or E-mail.
Seems this guy was asking for info on Subes not a comparison with those "other" engines. Sounds like he is old enough to make up his own mind.
My flying RV6A site is here: http://www.sdsefi.com/air9.html
Here is our main aircraft page which has several flying Sube powered aircraft on it: http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
Here is a link to the main Sube group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FlySoob/
Here is my Sube powered RV10 project link: http://www.sdsefi.com/air46.htm
Yes, a properly engineered STI conversion would make a great RV powerplant but be prepared for a lot more work than dropping in a Lycoming. People do things for many different reasons. If you want to do more than rivet together a fine kit from Vans, this will give you a real education.
If I can help in any way, drop me a PM or E-mail.
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I simply can't believe you have that many hours on a Subaru and you haven't removed it to install a Lycoming. You are one dangerous, livin' on the edge, crazy dude!
kentb
Well Known Member
Ross, intersting development on your RV10 engine.
Do you have any data comparing it to Lycoming? IE weight, CG differences?
Looks like engine heat will be carried through the tunnel to the radiator. Will these be insulated? What prop will you be using? Did you fuel tanks need to be plumed differently?
Can't wait to see you flying and reporting more information on this setup.
Kent
Do you have any data comparing it to Lycoming? IE weight, CG differences?
Looks like engine heat will be carried through the tunnel to the radiator. Will these be insulated? What prop will you be using? Did you fuel tanks need to be plumed differently?
Can't wait to see you flying and reporting more information on this setup.
Kent
At this time it looks like we will be about 20 pounds heavier overall than an IO-540/ Hartzell. Without the turbos, about 45 lbs. lighter. The C of G should be similar. The coolant pipes running through the tunnel are insulated to reduce heat transfer. Using an MTV18, 3 blade composite prop. Fuel tank plumbing is very similar to mechanically injected RV10s, using an Andair Duplex valve. We do use different pumps and a small header tank. Return lines are fitted also.
It will be 2009 likely before this flies. Hope to be rebuilding the engine this winter.
