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VFR under Class C?

aviationgeek84

aviationgeek84

Well Known Member
Hello all,
I had a question today from a former student who is now flying a Light Sport Aircraft. He wants to know if he can go to an airport that is UNDER the outer shelf of our local Class C airport. The Class C shelf goes from 4900' down to 2100' and he would be under that.

I know this is generally legal to do, but I'm not up on light sport stuff yet (trying to catch up).

Any opinions/input?

Thanks!
 
As long as he stays clear of the Class C (i.e. in Class E/G) and his destination is not towered, or he has the applicable instructor endorsements, he's good to go.

61.315
61.325
 
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He must have a transponder with a Mode C. Typically, the mode C veil thing comes into play under the wedding cake.
 
From the AIM (4-1-19):
2. In general, the CFR's require aircraft to be equipped with Mode C transponders when operating:

(a) At or above 10,000 feet MSL over the 48 contiguous states or the District of Columbia, excluding that airspace below 2,500 feet AGL;

(b) Within 30 miles of a Class B airspace primary airport, below 10,000 feet MSL. Balloons, gliders, and aircraft not equipped with an engine driven electrical system are excepted from the above requirements when operating below the floor of Class A airspace and/or; outside of a Class B airspace and below the ceiling of the Class B airspace (or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower);

(c) Within and above all Class C airspace, up to 10,000 feet MSL;

(d) Within 10 miles of certain designated airports, excluding that airspace which is both outside the Class D surface area and below 1,200 feet AGL. Balloons, gliders and aircraft not equipped with an engine driven electrical system are excepted from this requirement.
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No problem - I've stood corrected many times myself. :) Oh well... :D
 
aviationgeek84 said:
Hello all,
I had a question today from a former student who is now flying a Light Sport Aircraft. He wants to know if he can go to an airport that is UNDER the outer shelf of our local Class C airport. The Class C shelf goes from 4900' down to 2100' and he would be under that.
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Why not get a Class B/C/D endorsement and be done with it? If they are a former PP who is flying as SP then I don't think they need one. If they are a SP then they need the endorsement.

TODR
 
Geico266 said:
Well then, I stand corrected. I'm turning mine off from now on.
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I wouldn't be so quick to turn it off, even if the regs don't require it to be on. More and more aircraft are being fitted with various types of collision avoidance systems, and many of them won't work if the other aircraft is not transmitting Mode C (transponder with altitude info). Your safety is improved if the other guy's collision avoidance system sees your aircraft.
 
Why not get a Class B/C/D endorsement and be done with it? If they are a former PP who is flying as SP then I don't think they need one. If they are a SP then they need the endorsement.
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The aircraft they are flying are light sport and they don't have a transponder, so their only option appears to be UNDER the class C outer shelf... which is what they plan to do. They can't go into the Class C because of the transponder requirement.
 
You can always call prior to entry and request permission for no mode C operation. In B also.

Jekyll
 
I read regs differently

Perhaps it is just the usual bass-ackwards way the government stuff is written, but the way I read that AIM portion, the Mode C IS required within the veil under 10,000 MSL for aircraft with an electrical system. I don't see an exception for no transponder, just for no electrics.

 2. In general, the CFR's require aircraft to be equipped with Mode C transponders when operating:
....
(b) Within 30 miles of a Class B airspace primary airport, below 10,000 feet MSL. Balloons, gliders, and aircraft not equipped with an engine driven electrical system are excepted from the above requirements when operating below the floor of Class A airspace and/or; outside of a Class B airspace and below the ceiling of the Class B airspace (or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower);
....

I also think (personal opinion) it's just not a good idea to operate in the vicinity of a Bravo airspace sans transponder including Mode C. I had a Mode C malfunction yesterday leaving KDET which is inside the KDTW veil but outside the Bravo. It made more work for Detroit Approach but they worked with me using verbally reported altitude. If they have to warn of primary targets as "type and altitude unknown" it makes more work for them and for any airplane in the vicinity; the pilot doesn't know where to look.

From AIM: http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/Chap3/aim0302.html
5. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft must be equipped as follows:
​
(a) For IFR operations, an operable VOR or TACAN receiver; and
​
(b) For all operations, a two-way radio capable of communications with ATC on appropriate frequencies for that area; and
​
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, an operable radar beacon transponder with automatic altitude reporting equipment.
​
NOTE-
ATC may, upon notification, immediately authorize a deviation from the altitude reporting equipment requirement; however, a request for a deviation from the 4096 transponder equipment requirement must be submitted to the controlling ATC facility at least one hour before the proposed operation.
​
[size=-2]REFERENCE-
AIM, Transponder Operation, Paragraph 4-1-19.[/size]
​
6. Mode C Veil. The airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in Appendix D, Section 1 of 14 CFR Part 91 (generally primary airports within Class B airspace areas), from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, aircraft operating within this airspace must be equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having Mode C capability.
​
However, an aircraft that was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with a system installed may conduct operations within a Mode C veil provided the aircraft remains outside Class A, B or C airspace; and below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
​
 
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Perhaps it is just the usual bass-ackwards way the government stuff is written, but the way I read that AIM portion, the Mode C IS required within the veil under 10,000 MSL for aircraft with an electrical system. I don't see an exception for no transponder, just for no electrics.
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H.Evans - The questions above were not dealing with Class bravo, they were dealing with Class Charlie. There is no Mode C Veil on Charlie, only Bravo. Re-read the posts. You are correct regarding Class Bravo if that were what we were talking about.



I wouldn't be so quick to turn it off, even if the regs don't require it to be on.
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Kevin, I believe Geico was joking. I hope he was anyway.
 
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Oops

tobinbasford said:
H.Evans - The questions above were not dealing with Class bravo, they were dealing with Class Charlie. There is no Mode C Veil on Charlie, only Bravo. Re-read the posts. You are correct regarding Class Bravo if that were what we were talking about....
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Tobin, you are right, but you knew that and I agree about class C. Oops.
 
It's that portion "Unless otherwise authorized by ATC" I refered to. You can call on a land line and request a window to enter or exit. You can request permission to enter on initial radio contact. If they are busy they might refuse, if not, you'll likely get permission. I've operated out of a Class D under the Mode C and the upper rings of a Class B without mode C. Thay always granted permission and just wanted to know our intended route of flight.

Jekyll
 
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