Chelton Flight Deck

EFIS Flight Deck

I am looking for good avionics to put into my rv9a and I was looking at the Chelton dual screen EFIS. I was looking for people who know more than me and could tell me some of the pros and cons of the system! I have also looked at the Blue Mountain Avionis EFIS/ONE and the Avidyne Envision system so if anyone has any information about these systems in would be greatly appreciated!

Hello Koven,

When you have a few hours, start browsing through the threads here in the Glass Cockpit forum, or search for Chelton, and you'll find a pretty vast accumulation of opinions and experience with many of the major systems out there!

Paul

Ironflight said:

When you have a few hours, start browsing through the threads here in the Glass Cockpit forum, or search for Chelton, and you'll find a pretty vast accumulation of opinions and experience with many of the major systems out there!

Paul

Click to expand...

Yep, there's a lot of info out there. However, FWIW:

Chelton - Expensive, stable, feature-rich. Good display symbology. Approved for GPS IFR approaches. Problems with early AHRS were resolved. Additional displays are expensive. Based on certified system and software.

BMA E1 - Moderate cost, reports of instability.

GRT - Stable, good features, modular, integrates easily("plays well with others" ) moderate to low cost. Good EFIS, WX improving, moving map still poor. Large, helpful RV-focused user base.

Dynon - Simple, stable, modest feature set, low cost.

YMMV

TODR

the_other_dougreeves said:

Yep, there's a lot of info out there. However, FWIW:

Chelton - Expensive, stable, feature-rich. Good display symbology. Approved for GPS IFR approaches. Problems with early AHRS were resolved. Additional displays are expensive. Based on certified system and software.

BMA E1 - Moderate cost, reports of instability.

GRT - Stable, good features, modular, integrates easily("plays well with others" ) moderate to low cost. Good EFIS, WX improving, moving map still poor. Large, helpful RV-focused user base.

Dynon - Simple, stable, modest feature set, low cost.

YMMV

TODR

Click to expand...

How about we correct some of this.

a) CFS system - NOT approved for IFR, without some form of TSO'd GPS, either module or in panel. It is however running the same code that the TSO'd platform is for the EFIS functions, and is fully tested to DO-160E specifications for temp, humidity, RFI/EMI, and lightning. The AHRS (the chelton version now comes with it) has also passed the full DO-160E suite including lightning, and is the *only* one to do so as of this time. IFR DB is jeppesen data and is currently available from CFS direct but this may change in the future. The EFIS code meets TSO 146. Chelton also supports today ADS-B.

b) GRT is a good, honest, low cost system, but it also is NOT IFR certifble by its self and would require an external TSO'd GPS for IFR GPS work. It's EFIS code does not meet the TSO specification (EFIS's don't specifically have to in the experimental world, but nice for risk adverse people). It also has never been tested to DO-160E standards

c) actually the same as item B applies to all of the others as well, but I singled out both CFS and GRT because in my opinion, they represent the top of 2 different classes of product. One feature rich, fully tested, meets TSO, highly integrated with good display clairity, quality and resolution. The other not as feature rich, doesn't meet the TSO's, is relatively well integrated, but in current version suffers from lower resolution, slower processing.

I went the CFS route and am extremely happy, but I know there are those that are just as happy with the GRT system. In effect it comes down to money and how your evaluate risk.

Good luck and the other comments are also appropriate.

aadamson said:

I singled out both CFS and GRT because in my opinion, they represent the top of 2 different classes of product.

Click to expand...

The market, in terms of sheer number of sales, significantly disagrees with you when it comes to the "top product" in the experimental EFIS world.

Has anyone explored the www.mglavionics.co.za site?
I've been following developments for about 6 months and it appears that this might be a good way to go. They started with a small black & white EFIS, and now, as far as I can see, there are many good developments on the horizon, Enigma, a reasonable small EFIS, but about to be followed by Odyssey and Voyager larger size. I have no pricing but I suspect they will be as good pricewise as our local ones if not better.
At any rate you can check them out.
kaycee, 9A working on fuselage wiring, and getting anxious about a panel

enigma-

The thing that holds me back from considering this EFIS/EMS-

the screen resolution for such a BIG screen is relatively low. The next gen Odyssey is better but $$.

For an EFIS- it's about the same $$ as GRT bigger/higher resolution screen. combined EFIS/EMS it is cheaper.

I also don't like having TOO MANY programmable options- I want to fly, not program.

Also doesn't currently work with tru trak.

I'm leaning in favor of the single screen GRT sport w/o moving map or EMS to start but getting the bigger HS screen- then I can add functionality down the road without ripping up the panel.

The Dynon is REAL tempting, but if you add the HSI/ILS module the $$ comes real close and still no moving map or flight planning. I also like having knobs on the unit.

enigma/odyssey

I believe that a check with the stratomaster users group will give you the info that TruTrak will work with the enigma system, that as of about 2-3 days ago

Check out Tim Olson's page:

www.myrv10.com

He has extensive in filght reports, screen shots and information.

PS-Tims server crashed but he has marginal capability but will be up to full speed very soon since it's what he does!!

May help with your $$$ decision.

aadamson said:

a) CFS system - NOT approved for IFR, without some form of TSO'd GPS, either module or in panel.

Click to expand...

Wait, are you saying that the WAAS TSOed GPS that is normally part of the Chelton IFR install doesn't cover it? I know that Chelton has a new GPS unit that is part of the new ADHRs / ADS / GPS module, but they're pretty clear that if you want to use it for IFR approaches, you need the TSOed GPS module. They used to use FreeFlight but now have a custom-build WAAS module.

I guess I was considering the WAAS GPS module as "part" of the Chelton install.

jcmcdowell said:

The Dynon is REAL tempting, but if you add the HSI/ILS module the $$ comes real close and still no moving map or flight planning. I also like having knobs on the unit.

Click to expand...

Yes, but the HS34 (the "HSI/ILS module") gives you connectivity that costs you way more with everyone else. We already do HSI and ILS via serial without the module, just like everyone does. The HS43 gives you AIRNC 429 and analog radio interfaces which nobody else gives you for anywhere near the price. Given your description, it doesn't sound like you need or want an HS34.

I think if you do the math, you'll be surprised:

D180, which is an EFIS and an EMS, with all engine probes for a 4 cylinder engine. 7" screen, all in one box, 800 nits: $4200.

Garmin 296: $1200

GRT Sport with the higher resolution 6.4" screen, 800 nits, GPS, and EMS. The EMS is a separate unit that you have to put on your panel somewhere or hide: $5470

So for $70 less, you can get a Dynon D180 AND a Garmin 296. You end up with more resolution, more screen area, a really great and proven GPS, and you can buy this setup today, unlike the Sport/HS. You can actually show your EFIS, EMS, and map all at the same time, unlike the single GRT screen. You'll get a full GPS based HSI on the Dynon, just like the GRT would do.

TSOd GPS wouldn't make the whole system "IFR certified"... so even though it's part of the package, it makes no difference as far as efis certification.

though, it's worth noting that chelton never claimed their efis is certified..

the_other_dougreeves said:

Wait, are you saying that the WAAS TSOed GPS that is normally part of the Chelton IFR install doesn't cover it? I know that Chelton has a new GPS unit that is part of the new ADHRs / ADS / GPS module, but they're pretty clear that if you want to use it for IFR approaches, you need the TSOed GPS module. They used to use FreeFlight but now have a custom-build WAAS module.

I guess I was considering the WAAS GPS module as "part" of the Chelton install.

Click to expand...

In the "sport version" of the CFS system, there has never been a WAAS TSO'd GPS. You can buy the FreeFlight 1201 which is being revised to meet the TSO, or you can buy a 480, 430W, 530W, or you can wait for the new Chelton WAAS TSO meeting GPS module.

Also and to be clear.... In the beginning of time, CFS used a Watson AHRS with no built in GPS, then they switched to the Xbow 500/425 which included a GPS module internal to the AHRS, but also is not IFR TSO meeting. Then they did away with the Xbow and went to the pinpoint (now named the Chelton), it also has a GPS module internally, but just like the GRT, AFS, Dynon, BMA, etc, does not meet the WAAS or non-WAAS GPS TSO (146a and 129a to be specific). Then about 2 months ago, Chelton announced a new TSO meeting GPS module that can be used to meet the WAAS TSO. It doesn't replace anything that comes with a Sport, but can be interfaced to provide true /G capability including Enroute/Terminal and all types of GPS approaches including LPV (GPS precision). With it and the CFS displays, the system meets both the 146 and the 146a TSO (the Flight Management system and WAAS GPS ones).

Unless you spend the *really* big bucks and opt for the G900X with "W" GPS modules, I don't know of any other system that meets those TSO's and I'm not even sure that the Garmins big screens do.

Anyway, just wanted to clear all that up.

Have you actualy seen the screens ?
We had one guy come in just the other day with the somewhat common opinion around screen resolution and was instantly convinced after seeing a dual Enigma setup in operation. He walked out with a set.
The simple truth is that there is a LOT more to a screen than just resolution. You need to look at a display and then decide. It is the only way. What matters most is physical pixel size vs. viewing distance.
For one thing, with current display technology, lower resolution buys you a lot more direct sunlight visibility. Your high resolution screen means nothing if you can't see the thing ! You need to choose your resolution RIGHT - not too low, not too high.
Odyssey $$ ???? You got to be kidding right ? Don't you know us by now ? We are on your side. We are fliers too you know. Have a look at our Odyssey at Oshkosh - you at least owe it to yourself to do so. If this thing does not blow you away - nothing will.
Our instuments work with ANY autopilot that understands NMEA. In addition, Odyssey has ARINC so you can use that as well.
It will please you to learn that Odyssey has TWO knobs (and you can decide what you want them to do).

In case you are wondering, Voyager is the smaller brother of Odyssey using an 8 inch screen for those that just can't fit the 10.4" (Garmin G1000) sized Odyssey. Should be available towards the end of the year.

The flexibility built into our systems allows you to set up your system just the way you want it. Depending on your personal preferences you can set up a system exactly the way you need - or if you don't, simply use the standard screens it comes with. You decide.
There is no rule that says you have to go an modify any of our instruments. The nice thing is - you can if you want to. Believe me, most people do exactly that and as a result there are some nice screen designs around.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics

jcmcdowell said:

The thing that holds me back from considering this EFIS/EMS-

the screen resolution for such a BIG screen is relatively low. The next gen Odyssey is better but $$.

For an EFIS- it's about the same $$ as GRT bigger/higher resolution screen. combined EFIS/EMS it is cheaper.

I also don't like having TOO MANY programmable options- I want to fly, not program.

Also doesn't currently work with tru trak.

I'm leaning in favor of the single screen GRT sport w/o moving map or EMS to start but getting the bigger HS screen- then I can add functionality down the road without ripping up the panel.

The Dynon is REAL tempting, but if you add the HSI/ILS module the $$ comes real close and still no moving map or flight planning. I also like having knobs on the unit.

Click to expand...

jcmcdowell said:

The Dynon is REAL tempting, but if you add the HSI/ILS module the $$ comes real close and still no moving map or flight planning. I also like having knobs on the unit.

Click to expand...

Dynon will sell you knobs now. It's an add-on module.