How long to feel comfortable flying RV-6 Taildragger?

Hi,

I am a new owner to an RV6. It is a great aircraft, and my first taildragger. I have about 375 hours TT in single engine aircraft, and 25 hours taildragger time. My landings are pretty comfortable, but my takeoffs still don't feel right as I still don't feel like I have full control. I'm strongly considering selling it and getting an RV6A. What do you taildragger pilots think? I'm thinking about switching to an RV6A. Or should I keep at the taildragger? Will a taildragger ever feel as easy to fly as a tricycle landing gear aircraft?

Thanks
Steve

Hi Steve!

I'd say your feelings are normal for someone with 25hrs tailwheel total. I didn't really feel completely comfortable until about 50 hrs in the -6.

Now I'm hooked (over 800hrs).

Plenty of folks hooked in TW and NW, but I'd give it some more time before I actually went through the process of selling. It'll grow on you...


b,
d

Steve,
Let me preface my response by giving you a little background: I'm an 800 hour pilot evenly split between tailwheels and trikes. My total RV time is just under 100 hours (all in trikes).

Before buying my 6A I had been flying a C170, Citabria, Taylorcraft and C140. One thing I noticed when I started flying the 6A was that it required a lot more rudder than I was used to on take-off. Just a hunch, but I'm guessing you're having the same sensation of needing more footwork in the RV6. More than likely, you'd have the same feeling in the 6A as well due to the free castoring nose wheel. 25 hours is pretty low time as far as tailwheel time is concerned. Like Doug said, somewhere between 40-50 hours is what it usually takes for me to get 100% comfortable in a new taildragger. I'd give yourself more time and get with a RV familiar TW instructor for some pointers.

Don't give up on the 6 yet. I hunted for a "just right" 6 but could never find one I liked for under 80K, so I compromised and went with the 6A. Now I find myself wanting to go back to a taildraggger.

More rudder

Hi Steve,
You didn't clarify just exactly what makes you uncomfortable with the -6. My guess is that it might be the amount of right rudder you have to use. Believe me, one of the most needed practice I see my transition students needing, is more right rudder, more right rudder! Jeez, I sound like a stuck record sometimes. Remember, you have a big engine in a small airplane and yes, it's gonna pull left accordingly. As Van points out, that same engine of yours hauls four people around in much bigger and heavier airplanes. You do indeed have a hotrod but you'll get used to the satisfaction of having to stand on the right rudder on takeoff because the little fire-breathin' rocket is anxious to please......

Regards,

Steve,
It took me about 100 hours in the 6 to get comfortable. I had similar total hours to you but only one-hour of TW. And, I am not a "natural" pilot. I did about 15 hours of transition training (5 hours more than
insurance required) and probably 100 solo stop-&-goes, followed by touch-&-goes. I approached the training with a "failure is not an option" attitude and the discipline to do the needed training/practice.

Now, I really enjoy the TW. But, the much bigger benefit of sticking with it is that I am a MUCH better (and safer) pilot. The nosewheel flying had allowed me to be very sloppy. The TW demanded that I learn to land with much greater skill.

I expect that I'll return to a trike gear some day. But, I am very grateful that I now have about 400 hours of TW experience.

I encourage you to stick with it until you ARE more-or-less comfortable with it. THEN switch if you just like the -A configuration.

Good luck!

Slow down the application of throttle

Steve,

Glad to hear you are practicing and getting comfortable on landings - that is a good confidence builder. Sometimes with take-offs though there is so little ground roll in the RV that it is hard to get good practice in.

One thing that I didn't see mentioned is the application of power. Like folks said, big engine, small airplane. Instead of a brusk application of full power like you would do in a C-172 or the Citabria, the RV requires a slower smoother application of power. That way you can more gradually compensate with right rudder through the first few seconds of our takeoff roll.

Ditto what Rob and Pierre said, just easy into the throttle and keep in the right rudder. You might want to check the wheel alignment. Too much toe-in can make high speed handling "interesting" to say the least.

Alex DeDominicis had a cool instructional technique you might try. Roll out onto the runway, get the plane straight on the centerline (tailwheel straight), and come to a stop. Plant your left foot on the floor, and take off using just throttle & your right foot. Slow application of throttle and right rudder is all it takes to keep the plane on centerline. Anyway, give this a shot and it might help.

Sometimes you just can't help shoving the balls to the wall on takeoff...it's fun. But it's more demanding directional control wise.

Having also transitioned with Alex DeDominicis, I 2nd what Dan says. Wanted to add one more thing. If you have a strong crosswind from the right, the plane my want to weather vane to the right, but you still use right pedal, just less of it. So in other words, for the most part there is no left and right pedal, just more right and less right. That's why Alex can say plant your left foot on the floor. I've had a bit of a problem early on while taking off with a right cross wind where as soon as the plane would start to weather vane to the right, I would push left pedal. This reulted in too much left and I'd start to go left. I'd end up in a pilot induced yaw oscillation as I headed down the runway. If you start going right during takeoff, just relax a bit of right pedal pressure, but don't push left pedal. Hope this helps.

Tobin

Tail Wheel Springs

When you first start rolling, that Tail Wheel is locked to the ground essentially limiting your rudder travel until you get the Tail in the air. You essentially are riding the Tail Wheel and then the tail comes up forcing you to make a pretty big correction in rudder, risking overcorrection, and back, and forth. I am sure you will learn to apply correct rudder when your tail comes up and get the feel of it in time, so no big deal.
I know a lot of folks like their Tail Wheel springs with little or no play for better ground handling when taxiing. However, I believe that looser springs allows for better directional control and a finer "feel" of the rudder producing less correction when the tail comes up, especially in cross winds. (even more important on landing, but that is another discussion). You don't get that positive locked in feeling while taxiing, but I am not concerned about that phase of my flight as proper use of the rudder pedals and slight, not heavy, differential braking where necessary does the trick when taxiing at low speeds. My roll out, most of the time, is straight and always very controllable.

The rudder can not overcome the tail wheel. The Rudder is akin to a fine tuned instrument. Conversely, The Tail Wheel is a very "gross" way to push the back end of the airplane around. Very effective, but not very good at "feeling" the air. This might not be not be a bad thing most of the time and I would not think of flying my Bucker without the tail wheel locked in. However, the Bucker has very little rudder authority until the tail comes up. My RV6 has almost immediate authority and it is ready to push hard well before the tail comes up...well, for that very short time the tail is on the ground anyway.

Not sure if this would make any difference or not or if it is all in my head.

N908RV said:

One thing that I didn't see mentioned is the application of power. ...................Instead of a brisk application of full power like you would do in a C-172 or the Citabria, the RV requires a slower smoother application of power. That way you can more gradually compensate with right rudder through the first few seconds of your takeoff roll.

Click to expand...

Excellent advice. It is not necessary to have full power until the end of the TO roll (even then, without full power, it may not climb well but would fly). It is nice to have the feeling you are in control and an easy application of power does this in the 6 and 6A. There is not a lot of difference between the feel of either on the TO roll if power is applied slowly. It will still get off the ground fast with what seems to be a "slow" application of power. It will just be more comfortable and you will be in the air before you know it.

It's good practice if you have a long enough runway to add partial power, enough to get the tail up, and let it run on the mains a while to get the feel of it (directional control)...a little more power and she is flying.

Want a 6A? Convert ......dont Sell

You ask if you should sell your 6 and buy a 6A. This may be relevent.


I did my tail dragger conversion on a Decathalon then flew my lovely little RV6. I just could not feel good about the landings but understood the takeoffs OK. Call me a wimp but after flying and talking with other RV6 pilots I discovered that I was not Robinson Crusoe. Some always felt uncomfortable with their landings but the 6A/7A pilots were generally at ease with their choice. So I converted "Rough Red" RV6 to a 6A and haven't looked back.

The conversion is quite easy with the conversion kit costing about $A5000.(It's standard from Van's)
There is about 80 hours of work in it but one doesn't even have to take the prop off the motor. Drilling the holes in the weldments to match the spar bolt holes is the hardest task and you have to be double jointed to get some of the bolts in behind the weldments but that's the case with any 6A.

Did I give it enough time to get comfortable with the taildragger? No I didn't.
Do I regret my decision? I wish I could have been comfortable with the taildragger but at my age ther's the dog and tricks thing. The conversion is simple and if you liked your building experience, there is reward in doing the conversion yourself.

In other words if you want a 6A rather than a 6 then convert it.

"Rough Red" RV6A

RV6A Owner

Steve I was in the same position as you except I did not purchase a tail drager. After flying various ones and doing fine I was set to purchase one until I checked with the insurance co. They are a minimum of $200. a year more for insurance and not as stable for landinng or take off. You have to be on the peddles constant, I opted for the 6-A and am happy I did. I cruse with a full fuel and load with 2-people between 145 t0 170 true air speed. I am happy with this, my frind has a RV6, he is maybe 2 KTS faster. For the 2-KTS slower I am saving on insuranse. If it were me unless you are in love with it, I would look for a 6-A or newer model. Bill

I'm a very low-time RV pilot here, and would "second" all that's been said about the application of power. Another point that my Dad saw (also my instructor... with lots of tw time... Pitts, RV, you name it), was that I getting the tail up too quick, and pushing the stick forward at too fast a rate as well, thus accelerating the torque aspect of my directional control Excuse the grammar... keep practicing, have fun.



Tammy

6 take off.

I had the very same feeling when I started flying my 6. Even after 10 hours of dual. It wasn't until I took a friend for a ride that he pointed out that I was trying to get the take off over with before the airplane was ready to fly. After thinking about, Thats just what I was doing. It was full power, go fast and pull back, scare myself.
It wasn't until he convinced me to enjoy the take off. Slow appliction of power, let the plane exclerate feel for a "slight" down elevator pressure, apply right rudder pressure as needed. Don't chase the nose/rudder. Let the plane fly off. All this was done buy the time we were at 65-75 mph. I finely got the idea, and I haven't had a problem sence. It also helps with the crosswind condishions.
Remember, SLOWLY add power, let the plane excelerate, don't be afraid to use right rudder. Having said all that, I belive VAN'S has a larger vert. stab and rudder on the "7" and it will fit on the 6 without any mods. Check out VAN'S web site.
Rich
721 ET

6 take off.

I had the very same feeling when I started flying my 6. Even after 10 hours of dual. It wasn't until I took a friend for a ride that he pointed out that I was trying to get the take off over with before the airplane was ready to fly. After thinking about, Thats just what I was doing. It full power and pull back before it turned left, scare myself.
It wasn't until he convinced me to enjoy the take off. Slow appliction of power, let the plane exclerate feel for a "slight" down elevator pressure, apply right rudder pressure as needed. Don't chase the nose/rudder. Let the plane fly off. All this was done buy the time we were at 65-75 mph. I finely got the idea, and I haven't had a problem sence. It also helps with the crosswind condishions.
Remember, SLOWLY add power, let the plane excelerate, don't be afraid to use right rudder. Having said all that, I belive VAN'S has a larger vert. stab and rudder on the "7" and it will fit on the 6 without any mods. Check out VAN'S web site.
Rich
721 ET

6 again

sorry, I goofed the reply.
Rich

Ted Radclyffe said:

You ask if you should sell your 6 and buy a 6A. This may be relevent.


I did my tail dragger conversion on a Decathalon then flew my lovely little RV6. I just could not feel good about the landings but understood the takeoffs OK. Call me a wimp but after flying and talking with other RV6 pilots I discovered that I was not Robinson Crusoe. Some always felt uncomfortable with their landings but the 6A/7A pilots were generally at ease with their choice. So I converted "Rough Red" RV6 to a 6A and haven't looked back.

The conversion is quite easy with the conversion kit costing about $A5000.(It's standard from Van's)
There is about 80 hours of work in it but one doesn't even have to take the prop off the motor. Drilling the holes in the weldments to match the spar bolt holes is the hardest task and you have to be double jointed to get some of the bolts in behind the weldments but that's the case with any 6A.

Did I give it enough time to get comfortable with the taildragger? No I didn't.
Do I regret my decision? I wish I could have been comfortable with the taildragger but at my age ther's the dog and tricks thing. The conversion is simple and if you liked your building experience, there is reward in doing the conversion yourself.

In other words if you want a 6A rather than a 6 then convert it.

"Rough Red" RV6A

Click to expand...

Good post, Ted.

To reinforce what you say, I went from a 7A to a 7 back to 7A for the same reasons. I can fly a tail dragger but will never feel comfortable doing it.

You're right, old dogs don't like new tricks. After a certain time period, the brain locks down on some subjects - like learning a new language. Could be the tail wheel experience comes from the same part of the cranium.

Don't sell...

You just need some more time with a good instructor to get tuned up.

Kent

thanks

hey thanks for the amazing responses. they were all extremely helpful. i've since logged about 15 more hours since i posted this message and i feel great now. i'd say the biggest contributer was finding a good new instructor with RV6 and other taildragger experience. my new instructor recommended i take off with the tail just barely off the ground, or even a 3 point takeoff. it's much easier to control the aircraft without having to worry as much about the pitch of the nose. previously, i was pushing the stick forward almost 2/3 which made the aircraft do much more squirrely things.

how does everyone else take off? do you guys take off with the tail barely off the ground, or with the nose almost at a straight and level attitude?

steve

I raise the tail maybe a foot or so, not using much forward stick pressure. If I'm by myself, I gently pull it off the runway at about 60 mph. If I have a passenger aboard 65 to 70mph works well depending on the weight of the passenger. I keep the trim set neutral then trim the airplane once it is flying. My RV-6 has an 0-320 and a two blade Catto Propeller.

Steve,

Glad to hear that things are working out for you. Nothing like a new instructor for additional perspectives. As always more than one road that leads to Rome, and you'll ultimately find what works for you. My take off is similar to Bob's. I have an RV-8 with a 180hp CS prop. Here's my T/O and initial climb procedure...

I gradually apply the power, raise the tail at about 60mph - feeding in more right rudder as I raise the tail to counter the increased, slip stream and P-factor effects. I do raise the tail all the way to level mostly so that I have even better sight picture. At about 70-75 mph, I drop the tail to rotate, accelerate in ground effect to Vy and then continue a climb out at Vy. At 500' AGL the boost pump comes off, I back off power to 25 squared, mixture leaning begins and shallow the climb to a less agressive cruise climb of 120mph to help keep temps down in the summer heat.