What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

No Competition at Sun and Fun

F

FrankS

Active Member
I went from one sport plane manufacturer to another at Sun and Fun and could not obtain a ride in any of the competitions planes. ( I even offered to pay for some dual so as not to give the pretense I was mooching a free ride). I don't know how these people ever expect to sell a plane without offering a ride in one.

Rans did not have the S-19 on display except for photos yet they were willing to take your money. $20,000 for firewall back. Cowling, engine mount etc are in the engine installation kit so the S-19 is going to be more expensive than the 12. I think Rans is thinking of supplying ready built planes and targeting the flight school market. In fact that seems to the be the general trend of all the light sport aircraft manufacturers. Vans seems like the only one still agressively pursuing an affordable homebuilt sport plane.

I spoke to Van about the RV-12. He said other than the upgrades mentioned on their website he plans on sticking with the same basic design (i.e removeable wings, cab forward, etc). The 12 was not at Sun and Fun and he is not sure it will be at Oshkosh this year either (although after hesitating he said that is the current plan). The new RV-12 will not be ready by then and their not sure about displaying the first prototype or not. It looks like I have to push back my plans for a year and see what next year brings.

By the way, I don't know if its just opening day or what but attendance at Sun and Fun is way off this year. Vans booth was considerably smaller. General attendance from suppliers and people visiting the show appeared way off from last year. I won't be back next year and will put my effort towards attending Oshkosh.

Vans has the best marketing tool of all the light sport manufacturers. Let people have a ride and the plane sells itself. Also, it looks like Vans is going to blow away the competion with their pricing. Nothing specific yet but they believe they will come in at a lower cost than the 9. Based on the cold response I got from the other LSA manufacturers I am going to wait for Vans to refine the 12 and go for that one. As I started out in this thread, as far as a homebuilt LSA it does not appear that Vans has much competition.

Frank
 
FrankS said:
As I started out in this thread, as far as a homebuilt LSA it does not appear that Vans has much competition. Frank
Click to expand...
I like the looks of the RANS - but their development has been slow. Since they have advertised it as a buy-able product, I have been curious as to whether anyone is buying a plane which has never yet flown.?!

The only contender that I have seen in the past is the Zenith 601XL. While I like some of the features... I wasn't as impressed with the one I saw in Palm Springs.

A new kid on the block... albeit a 'glass plane, is the Lightning. It has some impressive specs. But with it's sleekness comes a bit higher stall speed, and I think it is overpriced. But price is what the market will bear.

So - I will continue to wait for Van's and his RV-12. Thanks for sharing your insight from Sun-n-Fun.

DJ
 
FrankS said:
By the way, I don't know if its just opening day or what but attendance at Sun and Fun is way off this year. Vans booth was considerably smaller. General attendance from suppliers and people visiting the show appeared way off from last year. I won't be back next year and will put my effort towards attending Oshkosh.

Frank
Click to expand...

Quite a few of the guys I've spoken with don't care for the entire public being allowed onto the flight line this year. They don't want to have to babysit their pride and joy all day long because the fears are that the volunteers will not protect their airplanes well enough. Could be the reason. We're going down on Friday but if watching the airplane becomes a PITA, we won't be back either.

Regards,
 
FrankS said:
I think Rans is thinking of supplying ready built planes and targeting the flight school market. In fact that seems to the be the general trend of all the light sport aircraft manufacturers. Vans seems like the only one still agressively pursuing an affordable homebuilt sport plane.
Click to expand...
American Legend Aircraft just announced that they will be offering a kit version of the Legend Cub and also providing factory builder assist programs. I'm not sure if the kit will be E-LSA or experimental, the difference being the amount of completion the factory is allowed to do.

That said, I agree that the LSA market is moving towards ready-to-fly airplanes. I think that RANS will continue to offer its models as both experimental and S-LSA (e.g., S-7).
 
the_other_dougreeves said:
American Legend Aircraft just announced that they will be offering a kit version of the Legend Cub and also providing factory builder assist programs. I'm not sure if the kit will be E-LSA or experimental, the difference being the amount of completion the factory is allowed to do.

That said, I agree that the LSA market is moving towards ready-to-fly airplanes. I think that RANS will continue to offer its models as both experimental and S-LSA (e.g., S-7).
Click to expand...
E-LSA IS experimental. What you mean is experimental, amateur-built (51%) and yes the Texas Sport Cub is a 51% amateur-built kit.
 
pierre smith said:
Quite a few of the guys I've spoken with don't care for the entire public being allowed onto the flight line this year. They don't want to have to babysit their pride and joy all day long because the fears are that the volunteers will not protect their airplanes well enough. Could be the reason. We're going down on Friday but if watching the airplane becomes a PITA, we won't be back either.

Regards,
Click to expand...

I was out on the flight line and I didn't notice any volunteers out there protecting planes so I wouldn't count on that.

I also heard that this weekend they are offering reduced entrance rates for Florida residents so its likely to bring out even more people that are not necessarily aviation oriented but (at reduced rates) can afford to come and see the show. (This is also an indication that general attendance is down at Sun-N-Fun if they are trying tactics like this.) With kids out of school you might see whole family's come. If they are allowing just anybody on the flight line [if I had a homebuilt] I wouldn't have it out there this weekend buts that's just me. There were plenty of RV's (and not much else) out on the flightline. I would think a rope down the front of the parked planes that allows people to walk by but not get close enough to damage the planes would be appropriate if your going to invite a non-aviation community to view the planes up close and personal.

By the way, I visited Plant City Airport (near Lakeland) and Vans had an RV-10 and RV-7 out there hopping rides all day. They obviously know how to sell airplanes - let people fly them (what a brilliant marketing scheme!) Other than Columbia aircraft (who can afford those?) no one else was there.

I was excited to see the Legend Cub offered as a kit but for $36,000 + for the firewall back (less paint) thats going to make for an expensive Cub. I like Cubs and I think Legend has done a good job with their kit but an RV-12 is going to be a lot cheaper to build and maintain.

Frank
 
pierre smith said:
Quite a few of the guys I've spoken with don't care for the entire public being allowed onto the flight line this year. They don't want to have to babysit their pride and joy all day long because the fears are that the volunteers will not protect their airplanes well enough. Could be the reason. We're going down on Friday but if watching the airplane becomes a PITA, we won't be back either.

Regards,
Click to expand...
I fail to understand how this is different than at Oshkosh. All the planes are accessible by the public there. Even in the war birds area anyone can walk right up to the plane and pretty much touch anything reachable. If it is such a problem why is it not something that is hotly debated at Oshkosh? Granted I have observed some people doing some things around those airplanes at Oshkosh that if I had been the owner I would have come unglued on them. Like parents letting their child open an umbrella underneath the cloth wing of an airplane or parents who sat their child up on the wing of an airplane so they could watch the air show. I am hoping to fly into Oshkosh one of these days in the RV and I think about that all the time. However, I think access to see airplanes up close is something that should not be taken away from the general public. Just make sure there are people and procedures in place to keep them from causing any damage.

Oshkosh seems to be able to make it work so why not Sun 'n Fun?
 
S&F observations and a question

I skipped this year and will see how S&F set up their
version of the 'Protect Our Planes' security system.
We will hear about it if there is very much damage to
the planes.

I believe the new general admission rates lets anyone
from FLA in for $5.00 after 5 P.M. all week and also $5.00
all day Sat & Sun. That may bring a lot of non-aircraft
savvy people out. It may be hard to police them.

At OSH, the daily non-member adult rate is $33.00 and
$19 for teens. No discounts. Big difference.

I want everyone to experience our hobby, but wouldn't
take my RV there unless I was willing to guard it myself.

If an airplane is damaged at S&F, who pays for the repair?

Tom
 
PHP: 
I want everyone to experience our hobby, but wouldn't
take my RV there unless I was willing to guard it myself.

Our TVRVBG group of six aircraft returned from S-N-F today. Admittedly we were on the grounds during the first day of the show which has lower attendance than the weekend, but we noticed no difference in the behavior of folks in RV parking than prior years. The only people we saw in RV land were individuals who seemed genuinely interested in the RV and were therefore aviation people. Our planes were parked on the flight line for two nights and survived unscathed.

If an airplane is damaged at S&F, who pays for the repair?
Click to expand...
Same person that pays for repairs if it is damaged at any other flyin...... ;)

I suspect the relaxing of restrictions on the flight line will have minimal impact. O course, if it was my plane that was being abused, that would be considered major impact.
 
Last edited:
I've had bad showplane experiences at both OSH and S&F. Yes, this was when credentials or membership were required for flightline access. I now consider PVC "fenceposts" and a yellow rope to be standard equipment if the airplane will be parked in a public display area. It's either that or stay with the airplane for the entire show. I know some folks don't like it. Too bad.

The most outrageous? Sun 'n Fun 2000. I walked up to my airplane (a replica biplane) right after dawn to find the cockpit cover and all the cockpit contents (cloth helmet with headset, maps, leather jacket, build log, etc) dumped 30 feet away in dirty, soaking wet grass. Some clown had his camera on a tripod, trying to get the perfect sunrise shot. I asked him "Hey, you from a magazine or something?" He says "No, but I have a website." I held my temper and went looking for a guard. He was gone when we got back, although the cockpit contents were still in a dirty heap. I really regret not punching him.
 
Last edited:
No RV-12, NO GOOD!

Van should have brought the RV-12, PERIOD! It would have stole the show and is a disappointment to all interested person or parties.

SNF has to go back to basics and the organizers/vendors/local merchants(i.e. Hotels) need to quit trying to gouge the pocketbooks of the attendees. Not everyone has the money to pay $150 a night for a room or $15 a meal for a substandard burger and over iced coke, unless the cash goes to Jimmy Buffett!
 
Last edited:
I agree, SnF was a nice show, but the hotel prices for a 2 star, drug infested, trash heap is rediculous. Locals are rude, and gouge you ever chance they get.
 
Mel said:
E-LSA IS experimental. What you mean is experimental, amateur-built (51%) and yes the Texas Sport Cub is a 51% amateur-built kit.
Click to expand...
Yes, sorry, I was wondering if it would be an E-LSA at ~ 80% factory finished. 51% it is!
 
I also think its a mistake for Vans not to have the -12 on display at Sun n Fun (is it because of all the 'its ugly' threads? Will its looks be substantially different with the new wing and canopy?), especially with the 19 not there.

As far as attending Sun n Fun, I've always looked apon that airshow as a distant second to AirVenure. It has just never seemed to be a grand enough of an event to me, kind of an AirVenture wannabe if you will. To me, if I'm going to spend the time and money, there is only one Aviation Mecca to attend and I'll be there again in July.

Speaking of folks not respecting aircraft. I do have to say there is indeed a difference in the crowd at AirVenture between those that attend during the week and those that show up on the weekend. I much prefer the mon. - fri. crowd. They seem to be the true aviation enthusiasts, builders and pilots. It's just an observation but they seem to be politer, more respectful of the aircraft on display and in general nicer neighbors in the camping area. I know for certain many pilots and builders attend only during the week and purposely are gone before the weekend crowd arrives. Come the weekend the flavor of the crowd changes from an aviation enthusiat crowd to a weekend airshow crowd (a big difference). Its generally a younger and louder (especially in the campgrounds at night) crowd. But, overall I still feel among my extended 'aviation family' when I'm at Osh and look forward to spending the week there again.
 
Last edited:
An annecdote

While proudly showing off my brand new RV-7a (paint almost dry) at the Eugene homebuilt airshow just down the road I watched in horror as a bonanza driver was about to hit the starter button with our aircraft facing back to back...Fourtunatly we were able to grab the control surfaces and hold them still and it was dry tarmac...Guy looked at me like "whats yer problem" when i suggested he pulled his airplane out of the lineup before starting his engine...Thanks buddy!

Oh then there are the Mums and Dads who because they pay their entrance fee almost have a fit when you point out to them that their 2 year old is likely to be torn limb from limb if he didn't let go of the strobe light on a georgeous Extra 300 the little darling was trying to do a pull up on.....Gee...I dunno if airshows are worth it...I'm renting a rottwieler with a bad attitude for OSH!

Frank...LOOK but if you touch.....
 
Oh then there are the Mums and Dads who because they pay their entrance fee almost have a fit when you point out to them that their 2 year old is likely to be torn limb from limb if he didn't let go of the strobe light on a georgeous Extra 300 the little darling was trying to do a pull up on
Click to expand...

I've never had a bad experience at OSH or S-N-F, but a couple of regional events have been horror shows. One in particular was populated with kids who were doing everything possible to tear control surfaces from planes....while their parents watched. I ended up with a trashed wheelpant bracket after someone left a size-12 shoe print on top of the wheelpant (trying to climb up on the wing???). Needless to say the event is no longer on our to-do list.

What is really frustrating is that the same parents probably would never allow their children to climb all over the vehicles at a custom car show...or maybe they would....
 
Sam Buchanan said:
I've never had a bad experience at OSH or S-N-F, but a couple of regional events have been horror shows. One in particular was populated with kids who were doing everything possible to tear control surfaces from planes....while their parents watched. I ended up with a trashed wheelpant bracket after someone left a size-12 shoe print on top of the wheelpant (trying to climb up on the wing???). Needless to say the event is no longer on our to-do list.

What is really frustrating is that the same parents probably would never allow their children to climb all over the vehicles at a custom car show...or maybe they would....
Click to expand...

I hate to sound like an old foggie (spelling?), but, in my opinion thats just a reflection of a general lack of respect and rudeness thats become a 'norm' for todays society, especially amongst the latch key, electronic obsest (internet chat rooms, computer games, ect), social skill lacking, I'm 'entitled' to everything generation. I'll take the 'Greatest Generation' anyday.
 
Last edited:
Mike Armstrong said:
I hate to sound like an old foggie (spelling?), but, in my opinion thats just a reflection of a general lack of respect and rudeness thats become a 'norm' for todays society, especially amongst the latch key, electronic obsest (internet chat rooms, computer games, ect), social skill lacking, I'm 'entitled' to everything generation. I'll take the 'Greatest Generation' anyday.
Click to expand...

I can't say I disagree, but it was, afterall, the "Greatest Generation" and their offspring that spawned the current crop of parents and children. Remember, this trend first started with the prosperity following WWII. We reap what we sow. Our middle and upper middle class kiddos fall into the same boat. This is a very complex and dynamic issue. As much as we would like to, I don't think we can put a thumb on one cause or generation.

OK back on topic, I have attended Sun-N-Fun twice in recent years and Air Venture once. I thoroughly enjoyed both. It's like eating two different flavors of ice cream. I agree if only one can be had, then Air Venture is the one. But for a nice break from the cold, Sun-N-Fun is a nice get-a-way at a good time of year for those who can make it. The timing obviously impacts attendance as well as other factors. Like others, I am sorry to hear the vendors are being priced out of attendance. This cannot be good for anyone. I feel fairly confident that Sun-N-Fun are opening the flight line to try to draw in more people. Money does talk and is necessary to run such an event. Thousands of extra folks at $8.00 a head is more money than a few 100 extra or less pilots will impact. All of that aside, only time will tell. These decisions are not lightly or easily made. I have not personally witnessed any real issues around the aircraft. I like the rope and poles idea.
 
The low attendance from both side this year might be a good think. I means that they might review their decision of opening the flight line. They mentioned that it was not yet a permanent thing, just a test.
 
S-N-F Attendance

I dunno, but this may be a pre-cursor to the general aviation struggle and fight against "User Fees". Cost of attending an event is driving participation down, as will the cost of the user fee argument for the grass-roots flier.

Just my angle on the subject.

Stogie 6
Germantown, TN
RV-6A (emp...8 yrs and counting)
PA-28 Cherokee driver
 
You should have seen the look on a friends face when a woman laid her kid on the wing of his beautiful RV8 and started changing a diaper at the Nellis Air Show one year. The barriers went up right after that.
Mike
RV8
Fuselage
 
I agree!

RVbySDI said:
I fail to understand how this is different than at Oshkosh. All the planes are accessible by the public there. Even in the war birds area anyone can walk right up to the plane and pretty much touch anything reachable. If it is such a problem why is it not something that is hotly debated at Oshkosh? Granted I have observed some people doing some things around those airplanes at Oshkosh that if I had been the owner I would have come unglued on them. Like parents letting their child open an umbrella underneath the cloth wing of an airplane or parents who sat their child up on the wing of an airplane so they could watch the air show. I am hoping to fly into Oshkosh one of these days in the RV and I think about that all the time. However, I think access to see airplanes up close is something that should not be taken away from the general public. Just make sure there are people and procedures in place to keep them from causing any damage.

Oshkosh seems to be able to make it work so why not Sun 'n Fun?
Click to expand...

Amen, brother!

Last year at SWRFI they had the warbird flightline locked down (just the warbirds -- not us pee-on's in GA parking, of course). Even with my EAA card, I couldn't get in. It just about ruined the show for me. I go to a fly-in to look at airplanes. And I don't care if people look at mine. I've never had any damage and it's a remote possibility anyway -- there are always plenty of pilots around to ward off the unwashed heathens.

As far as the OSH/SNF comparison, it's a toss-up for me. Sure, there's more to see at OSH, but at least at SNF they don't try to confiscate your beer in the camping area!
 
jonbakerok said:
As far as the OSH/SNF comparison, it's a toss-up for me. Sure, there's more to see at OSH, but at least at SNF they don't try to confiscate your beer in the camping area!
Click to expand...
Please, tell us this story! Who and why would they confiscate beer at OSH? In the airplane camping area or the one for us "still building/dreaming" campers? This may change my accomodations once the RV is done (not this year, but maybe next!).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top