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When do you turn on the EFIS?

mgomez

mgomez

Well Known Member
When I was trained in Cessnas, I was told to leave the avionics off until after the engine had started "in case the generator spiked when it came on line."

I didn't question it then. I'm not even sure it's a reasonable fear. I'm pretty sure the generator in my car comes on when the engine starts spinning fast enough!

Now, though, as I build an airplane whose oil and fuel pressure displays are on the glass cockpit, I wonder. I really hate the idea of not knowing the oil pressure until long after the engine starts.

So how do you EFIS-equipped guys do it?

Thanks,
Martin
 
aux battery

One way guys tackle this problem is to wire in a small auxiliary battery. Don't know how it is on the other systems, but on the GRT displays you have 3 separate power inputs. So you can get a small 12v battery and use that during the start. It can be wired such that it charges when not in use. The other 2 inputs usually come from the main power supply and the essential bus.

Another feature with the GRT system is that you can have on the EIS 4000 engine monitor during start. That is what provides your immediate warnings concerning the engine (i.e. oil pressure).
 
Helps partially

If the "generators spike during start" theory is true, then the aux battery won't help. The 3 sources of power to the GRT are probably diode or'd. So if the input wired to the generator spikes above the battery voltage, the GRT will see the spike. The battery solves the OTHER problem: it lets you see the oil pressure during the first few seconds after start.
 
Check with the EFIS manufacturer. Dynon says "no problem." I think most will say the same. However, my EI engine monitor says to have it off during start.
 
Not a spike...

mgomez said:
If the "generators spike during start" theory is true, then the aux battery won't help. The 3 sources of power to the GRT are probably diode or'd. So if the input wired to the generator spikes above the battery voltage, the GRT will see the spike. The battery solves the OTHER problem: it lets you see the oil pressure during the first few seconds after start.
Click to expand...
The problem isn't a spike - it's that the starter temporarily draws the battery down below the required voltage for the electronics, so they 'brown out'. So having a separate battery hooked up solves that problem.
There has been LOTS of discussion about this on the AeroElectric list.
 
GRT info

Scott Will said:
...
Another feature with the GRT system is that you can have on the EIS 4000 engine monitor during start. That is what provides your immediate warnings concerning the engine (i.e. oil pressure).
Click to expand...
The GRT EFIS will boot due, I assume, to low voltage when you engage the starter unless you have the suggested other battery. I haven't installed the backup battery yet, so I simply start with only the EIS on. GRT recommends that it be on before engine start so that the oil pressure alarm can be verified.
 
mgomez said:
When I was trained in Cessnas, I was told to leave the avionics off until after the engine had started "in case the generator spiked when it came on line."

I didn't question it then. I'm not even sure it's a reasonable fear. I'm pretty sure the generator in my car comes on when the engine starts spinning fast enough!
Click to expand...
An alternator should not produce a voltage spike during start.

Any good quality electrically powered device designed to be installed in an aircraft should be designed to meet the requirements RTCA DO-160 "Environmental Conditions and Test Procedures for Airborne Equipment". If the EFIS has been designed and tested to DO-160 standards, it should be able to withstand 20v for 1 second, and 40v for 0.1 second. This should be more than enough to handle anything but a lightening strike.
 
Simple Answer?

My simple answer to the question is that I have my EFIS on before start. I believe that the chances are extremely remote that with modern voltage regulation, and modern electronics, damage will occur at start. I do have an Aux battery on one of the power inputs to my GRT EFIS boxes to prevent the brown-out and reboot problem.

Of course, I'm only answering the question by telling you what I do...I am not going to "recommend" anything other than what the manufacturer says.... :rolleyes:

I'm pretty happy with my current procedures.

Paul
 
Haven't installed an aux battery yet. My EFIS screens are on DPST switches to the e-bus and main bus. The AHRS and EIS are not switched and are also on both busses. Therefore, the AHRS and EIS are on during start. No problems to date. Everything works just great.

The EFIS screens do indeed go off line during start. Learned this when I cranked the engine during my ground tests. Therefore I installed switches... yeah I know it's adding another link in the chain but there are two screens ... what are the odds of both switches going tango uniform at the same time?
 
Ironflight said:
I do have an Aux battery on one of the power inputs to my GRT EFIS boxes to prevent the brown-out and reboot problem.
Click to expand...
Say Paul, how exactly do you have that arranged? I'm imagining one of those little 4 amp jobs and a fat diode, but I'm curious to know the particulars.

mcb
 
Hi Matt,

I have a drawing in the "files" section of the GRT Yahoo group - a picture's worth a thousand words! But basically, the "C" power input for each of the DU's and the AHRS is fed from a 4.5 Ah battery which is trickle charged from the main battery through a diode and resistor (to limit the total current). The Aux battery is always connected to the main battery trickle connection, and is connected to the GRT units through a switch and circuit breaker. Works great!
 
As an FYI on the Dynon equipment:

You can leave it on when you start your plane. We're designed to handle it. Low voltage won't hurt us, and we can handle spikes up to 60V.

If you have an EFIS or a D180 with an internal battery, the unit will run off the battery as you crank.

If you have an EMS-D10 or D120, we stay on down to about 7V, so during most starts, we don't reboot and you have oil pressure right away. Even if we reboot, you'll have oil pressure within about 3 seconds.
 
As an earlier poster mentioned, spikes aren't really the problem, DO-160 compliance should eliminate any problem there, the issue really is voltage drop while cranking causing the EFIS to power down. A fully charged and healthy battery will drop to around 9.6 volts while cranking, but it's not uncommon to see a drop down to the 7.0 volt range. Many EFIS boxes will shut down or recycle when in this range, yet if they contain your engine monitor functions you want it on to monitor the start... oil pressure coming up etc.

I think the best solution is for the EFIS to have an internal battery backup that instantly supplies juice when the bus voltage falls during cranking. I know that my AFS-3500 has this functionality, and to me this was a mandatory feature, I really don't want to be starting my engine without being able to see what's going on. I therefore wired my EFIS to my main power bus so it comes on when I power up and remains on during cranking. I did put it on a pullable breaker however in case I need to cycle power for some reason while operating.

Builders still choosing an EFIS or engine monitoring system should definitely be considering this issue.
 
randylervold said:
I therefore wired my EFIS to my main power bus so it comes on when I power up and remains on during cranking. I did put it on a pullable breaker however in case I need to cycle power for some reason while operating..
Click to expand...
Why is the breaker needed to cycle the EFIS, Randy? Is there not a power on/off button or switch on the AFS EFIS that would do the same thing? (Just curious because I'm just starting to get at the wiring of the panel and am planning to use a Dynon 180 that will be on during start and will thus have to be on the main bus.) Thanks.
 
alpinelakespilot2000 said:
Why is the breaker needed to cycle the EFIS, Randy? Is there not a power on/off button or switch on the AFS EFIS that would do the same thing? (Just curious because I'm just starting to get at the wiring of the panel and am planning to use a Dynon 180 that will be on during start and will thus have to be on the main bus.) Thanks.
Click to expand...
Well, these EFIS boxes all have operating system software, and software can crash. Powering a unit down from the front panel buttons is usually a software function so if it's hung up it won't respond requiring one to pull the power to it. Ever had your PC hang up and need to hold the power button for 5 seconds or pull the wall plug? I wanted to be able to hard cycle power in-flight just in case therefore I put a pullable breaker. In a perfect world this would never happen, but...
 
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randylervold said:
I think the best solution is for the EFIS to have an internal battery backup that instantly supplies juice when the bus voltage falls during cranking. I know that my AFS-3500 has this functionality, and to me this was a mandatory feature
Click to expand...
randylervold said:
I wanted to be able to hard cycle power in-flight just in case therefore I put a pullable breaker. In a perfect world this would never happen, but...
Click to expand...
I'm confused - would you pull the breaker, then wait for the internal battery to discharge so the unit shuts down, then push the breaker back in? How long would this whole process take? Or will pulling the power CB somehow cause a reboot?
 
Thanks Randy-
That makes sense... I had been planning to use a pull breaker for the autopilot if it doesn't have a mechanical on-off switch for the same scenario you mention. I wasn't aware that many EFIS's don't have mechanical power switches, but come to think of it, I'm pretty sure the Dynon's on-off is software driven as well. As Kevin mentions, how do you get around the internal battery?
 
Kevin Horton said:
I'm confused - would you pull the breaker, then wait for the internal battery to discharge so the unit shuts down, then push the breaker back in? How long would this whole process take? Or will pulling the power CB somehow cause a reboot?
Click to expand...
Kevin & Steve, good question. If the unit is locked up then the battery backup feature probably won't work either because it's software driven. With the AF-3500 you can power it down from battery power by holding buttons 2-5 in for 5 seconds. Who knows the exact nature of any potential software hang, I just want to be able to deal with it in flight to the extent possible and pulling power give you one more tool in your arsenal that I think you need because i don't think any of these EFIS boxes have actual power switches, they're all software functions.
 
Don't know about the breaker, but...

I would put in a double poll - double throw switch (DPDT) so that you could disconnect both power sources at the same time.

Kent
 
The GRT EFIS doesn't have an internal battery backup, but it does have three power feeds. I connect one of them (from each box) to my aux battery through a switch, so if I want to remove all power for a hardware reset, I can do that by pulling breakers and turning off the aux feed. Usually, however, a reboot from the DU buttons is available. Never had a hardware hang-up....yet!

Paul
 
randylervold said:
Well, these EFIS boxes all have operating system software
Click to expand...

Actually, the Dynon systems DO NOT have an operating system. All of our code is written in house, much of it in assembly. We don't have a file system or dynamic memory allocation. This isn't a claim any other EFIS manufacturer in this market can make. Everyone else runs something like Windows CE, Linux, or pC/OS.

As far as we know, we've never heard of a Dynon production unit locking up in flight.

Just something to consider.
 
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I talked to GRT at Sun N Fun and he said leave EFIS off before starting and turn on EIF. I ordered a separate switch for the EFIS.

rar
 
dynonsupport said:
Actually, the Dynon systems DO NOT have an operating system. All of our code is written in house, much of it in assembly. We don't have a file system or dynamic memory allocation. This isn't a claim any other EFIS manufacturer in this market can make. Everyone else runs something like Windows CE, Linux, or pC/OS.

As far as we know, we've never heard of a Dynon production unit locking up in flight.

Just something to consider.
Click to expand...
MGLAvionics Enigma....

"So what about the operating system then ? Linux was a candidate, I must admit. In the end I wrote a system completely from scratch. I called it "FlightOps". Now, as everybody, including Bill Gates will tell you, that is stupid. But it has some merits. Being able to write the development system compiler AND the operating system allows me to optimize the system tightly around the hardware, i.e. the processor core and its exact abilities. This allows another advantage: I need less memory and can even run right out of Flash. Less memory means I can implement all memory as static memory (this is the kind you would use in outer space due to it's radiation resistance). Static is expensive but good."
 
If your point is that MGL wrote their operating system in house, then yes, they did. But it's still an OS with a file system. And I know they've had people have the whole system lock up on them in flight, needing to land and manually delete files to get it working again. That's the downside to an OS in any form.

The Dynon stuff doesn't have an OS in any way, shape or form. This gives us even more of the advantages that MGL speaks of, with no possibility of loosing a file and causing issues.
 
Hello Dynon,
I hope you don't mind me joining in a little bit here - just found your post by accident. I'm the guy that does the MGL instruments and writes the software (and sometimes makes the coffee).
I am not aware of any of our instruments locking up in flight due to some file system issue so I am surprised to read about this here. Can you please give me details, I really would like to follow this up - it would of course be very important to me to be aware of such an issue.

BTW, I am a great admirer of your company and your instruments and have recommended them in the past many times and even do so now for applications where our instruments are not a good fit.

Keep up the good work and I am looking forward to your own file system that you will no doubt need when you get to do SD cards, movings maps and all the fun stuff that entails. The new CE is BTW quite good if you want to evaluate a fast-track way to do a nice embedded system that can do file systems, USB etc.

I would have probably gone with CE if the current version would have been out a year ago - rather than bang my head against a wall and cursing old Bill Gates over FAT16, 32 and the lot !

Cheers

Rainier
(CEO MGL Avionics)

dynonsupport said:
If your point is that MGL wrote their operating system in house, then yes, they did. But it's still an OS with a file system. And I know they've had people have the whole system lock up on them in flight, needing to land and manually delete files to get it working again. That's the downside to an OS in any form.

The Dynon stuff doesn't have an OS in any way, shape or form. This gives us even more of the advantages that MGL speaks of, with no possibility of loosing a file and causing issues.
Click to expand...
 
It actually works!

We have 2 BMA efisses and I want one to be online throughout engine start to be able to program a flightplan or similar duties (furthermore I can use it as a backup engine monitor). We made a simple backup from a small lead battery and a large schottky diode on an isolated mount: http://websites.expercraft.com/PHVII/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=16503
Works perfectly: last night I cranked the engine for the first time: one EFIS rebooted and one stayed on line nicely.
Recipe for this set-up on: http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/battery_backup.pdf
Yes it works for GRT and Dynon too ;)
 
Seems like we need a vote

1) Leave it off till engine starts (aka avionics master)


2) Install a capacitor or small battery and diode to feed you EFIS/EIS in parallel so it remains powered even if power from the main battery drops during starting.


Both will work. I just turn the magic on after start, problem solved. Even despite DO-160 specs, I don't want to test the surge protection.

The down side with #1 is you don't have instant RPM/oil pressure when you first start. The EIS takes a few seconds to boot. If that bothers you do #2 or get a separate seconday/backup electro/mechanical oil gauge or pressure light. Oil pressure is really the only thing you care about initially.
 
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Rainier Lamers said:
I am not aware of any of our instruments locking up in flight due to some file system issue so I am surprised to read about this here. Can you please give me details, I really would like to follow this up - it would of course be very important to me to be aware of such an issue.
Click to expand...

Message 996 in your Yahoo group, April 23rd:

"The second failure was a software problem with one of the later releases.
The system crashed when scaling out on a map around the San Francisco
Bay area. I had to land at a nearby airport, wipe out the NV memory
and then was able to fly home without using the map screen. "

Same message:

"I was at SnF last week and encountered the scaling out on Map bug
wiping out the screen to an absolute "nothing" myself while
demonstrating it in front of a crowd of people. "
 
gmcjetpilot said:
2) Install a capacitor or small battery and diode
Click to expand...

Do the math on the capacitor. It would need to be HUGE, since it can only droop 1-2V. It's a battery or nothing.
 
OK how huge is IT?

dynonsupport said:
Do the math on the capacitor. It would need to be HUGE, since it can only droop 1-2V. It's a battery or nothing.
Click to expand...
OK good to know, but what is HUGE! :eek: We are only talking about what 1 amp for 3-5 seconds at most. What would the capacitor size need to be? :D

Looking at cost, size and weight of a large capacitor, but the capacitor would not weigh more or be bigger than the 4 Ah batteries folks are using. I agree a little battery would be more useful as a back-up, but a Cap could be an option. I could be wrong. So how huge is huge? :rolleyes:

PS I am working with a GRT EIS4000, which likely draws less power than the Dynon EIS.
 
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Well, quick math shows me that if your battery voltage is 12V, and the EIS shuts off at 10V, and the EIS draws 1A, and you want 5 seconds of run time...

You need a 3 FARAD capacitor. You can buy 5F caps from a car audio store. They're going to be about $200, and are about the volume of a 6 pack of soda cans.
 
Ah,
yes that was an issue during the beta phase of the Enigma release but it had nothing to do with the file system or operating system.
This would occur if Enigma had to display more than 256 waypoint icons on the screen at once as could happen at low zoom factors in the Los Angeles area (and nearly nowhere else). Enigma was programmed to exit gracefully at that number as it was getting silly (most would be painted ontop of each other). Trouble was - there was a bug in that exit which would lead to a lockup.
This issue was fixed within hours of it becomming known and the update posted.

Enigmas beta phase has now been ended but we are now releasing software in a two-tier mode to still allow experimenters to run the latest and greatest releases as beta. Perhaps similar to your approach where you use a bunch of beta testers - we simply make two downloads available now: The beta (which could have unknown bugs) and the known stable release. As user you can decide if you want to wait a little for new fetaures to make it into the stable release or if you are using your Enigma as a secondary instrument you can use the beta with perhaps newer features.

For example, we will be releasing a new beta this coming week which features 3D terrain and advanced map declutter while we will keep the stable release as is until we are certain the the new features are bug free.

Rainier

dynonsupport said:
Message 996 in your Yahoo group, April 23rd:

"The second failure was a software problem with one of the later releases.
The system crashed when scaling out on a map around the San Francisco
Bay area. I had to land at a nearby airport, wipe out the NV memory
and then was able to fly home without using the map screen. "

Same message:

"I was at SnF last week and encountered the scaling out on Map bug
wiping out the screen to an absolute "nothing" myself while
demonstrating it in front of a crowd of people. "
Click to expand...
 
Just MHO

Rainier Lamers said:
Ah,
yes that was an issue during the beta phase of the Enigma release but it had nothing to do with the file system or operating system.
Click to expand...
Just my humble opinion:
I would like my 'glass' to NOT be an EFIS, an EIS, or ?. I would like it to be a Multifunction Display (MFD); where one of the functions may be EFIS, EIS, or ?. Included in the set of functions would be moving map, terrain weather, synthetic vision or whatever as the functionality expands. Then when I can afford it I would add a second seat MFD for redundency.

Ease of updates, archives, etc. is important & that seems to be SD card slot right now.

So, if the above can only be done with an OS and file system, then I am voting for OS & file system.
 
Ironflight said:
Hi Matt,

I have a drawing in the "files" section of the GRT Yahoo group - a picture's worth a thousand words! But basically, the "C" power input for each of the DU's and the AHRS is fed from a 4.5 Ah battery which is trickle charged from the main battery through a diode and resistor (to limit the total current). The Aux battery is always connected to the main battery trickle connection, and is connected to the GRT units through a switch and circuit breaker. Works great!
Click to expand...

Minor issue here - if you're using a lead-acid battery for the backup (excellent choice and design, BTW) the battery will need full voltage from the alternator/regulator to keep a top charge. Passing the charging current through a diode will drop the voltage 0.6 volts, with the result that your backup battery NEVER sees full voltage from your primary bus to maintain its peak charge.

A better method that I've used on many occasions in this situation is to use a relay with a 10 ohm resistor to tie the two electrical systems together. The relay coil is powered off the primary voltage bus with a resistor in series sized appropriately to drop the coil when primary voltage goes below roughly 9-10 volts, which will isolate the two systems and you'll be operating on the secondary battery for your EFIS. The 10 ohm resistor on the charging line will prevent the secondary battery from back-feeding enough current into the primary to keep the relay picked, and it limits total charging current (1.4 amps) to take care of a short circuit.

Do you really need this? Hmmm - maybe, maybe not. You're only talking about a handful of seconds that the secondary battery needs to pull the EFIS - so it's not critical that you have a "full" secondary battery at all times. Keep in mind, however, that this relay design with secondary battery would serve you well as a secondary (or tertiary) emergency bus in times of complete electrical failure, and keeping a top charge would be CRITICAL for that mission.
 
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Well, that sounds like you want an Enigma then. All in one (with multiple screens you can setup yourself if you want to) and you can interconnect several of them (via the built in USB ports, only a USB printer cable required) to form a distributed, fully redundant MFD system. It is primary flight stuff, attitude, GPS navigation including moving maps (both raster and vector supported simulataneuosly).Airspace and terrain awareness, Voice prompts ("Pull up", alerts etc), NAV stuff like ILS and VOR using NAV/COM receiver or the equivalent GLS and GVOR using just the GPS. Also HITS, 3D GPS aided approaches (with WAAS GPS built in), Synthetic 3D terrain vision (Beta being released as free upgrade this week), full engine monitoring up to twin engine including turbine...
and, and, and...
I'm not even mentioning all the other goodies in the works right now...

Yes. It is low cost. :) Low end ? (comment I read on this list) You got to be kidding... :confused:
It's low cost because we WANT it to be low cost and CAN make it so.
Technology has moved on you know... :rolleyes:

Rainier
(CEO MGL Avionics)

GrayHawk said:
Just my humble opinion:
I would like my 'glass' to NOT be an EFIS, an EIS, or ?. I would like it to be a Multifunction Display (MFD); where one of the functions may be EFIS, EIS, or ?. Included in the set of functions would be moving map, terrain weather, synthetic vision or whatever as the functionality expands. Then when I can afford it I would add a second seat MFD for redundency.

Ease of updates, archives, etc. is important & that seems to be SD card slot right now.

So, if the above can only be done with an OS and file system, then I am voting for OS & file system.
Click to expand...
 
My postings here have been a little off topic (prompted by a comment) - please forgive. But it's caused me to join the list and as I have a very soft spot for RV aircraft, I'm here to stay.

Here is my take on the power vs. engine start story.

If you have our instruments fitted, switch on the EFIS, then switch on the engine (or reverse this if it makes you feel better). All our instruments contain the necessary components to protect against the EMF created by the starter motor and solenoids including reverse voltage.
Our Enigma and Ultra instruments also remain fully functional down to less than 6V !!! They all contain brownout protection that will ensure a rapid restart if voltage falls below minimum levels.

In my case I switch the other avionics (radio) off to start the engine as the ICOMs have a history of blowing up due to out of tolerance power levels.

This will also be put to rest when we release our own MGL brand of VHF radios, NAV/COM receivers and transponders soon.

Rainier
(MGL Avionics)
 
MGL radios

Rainier Lamers said:
...This will also be put to rest when we release our own MGL brand of VHF radios, NAV/COM receivers and transponders soon.

Rainier
(MGL Avionics)
Click to expand...
Hi Rainier, Sweet product you've got there. I saw it demoed it Aero by your French distributor. I'm sure many people are looking forward to seeing an innovative company like yours getting into the radio business! Best of luck!
 
All good ideas but added info correction

airguy said:
Minor issue here - if you're using a lead-acid battery for the backup (excellent choice and design, BTW) the battery will need full voltage from the alternator/regulator to keep a top charge. Passing the charging current through a diode will drop the voltage 0.6 volts, with the result that your backup battery NEVER sees full voltage from your primary bus to maintain its peak charge.

A better method that I've used on many occasions in this situation is to use a relay with a 10 ohm resistor to tie the two electrical systems together. The relay coil is powered off the primary voltage bus with a resistor in series sized appropriately to drop the coil when primary voltage goes below roughly 9-10 volts, which will isolate the two systems and you'll be operating on the secondary battery for your EFIS. The 10 ohm resistor on the charging line will prevent the secondary battery from back-feeding enough current into the primary to keep the relay picked, and it limits total charging current (1.4 amps) to take care of a short circuit.

Do you really need this? Hmmm - maybe, maybe not. You're only talking about a handful of seconds that the secondary battery needs to pull the EFIS - so it's not critical that you have a "full" secondary battery at all times. Keep in mind, however, that this relay design with secondary battery would serve you well as a secondary (or tertiary) emergency bus in times of complete electrical failure, and keeping a top charge would be CRITICAL for that mission.
Click to expand...
Lots of good ideas but relays are relays and you can get a schottky diode that has much less than 0.60 volt drop, like around 0.18 volts. Here is a good source for a schottky diode and company for RV'ers:

http://www.periheliondesign.com/powerschottkydiodes.htm


Advantage of diode is no mechanical stuff, lighter and more reliable. To fully charge a SLA (sealed lead acid) battery is about 14.2 volts. Most alternators are at 14.5 volts. Even if the battery is slightly under charged it does not mean its useless, just that it will be say at 80% or 90%.

You can make active little electronic circuits (easily) that monitor voltage and automatically throw relays to isolate or parallel different A / B electrical systems. Jets have all kinds of auto shedding and paralleling systems that activate as generators come on line or off line. Here is one you can buy off the shelf:

http://www.periheliondesign.com/lvwaabm.htm

However I like the KISS method for a little single engine plane. The less relays and diodes the better. However when ever you parallel and isolate you need them. Again the Schotty Diode is gold.
 
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XM weather?

Rainier Lamers said:
I'm not even mentioning all the other goodies in the works right now...


Rainier
(CEO MGL Avionics)
Click to expand...

Hi Rainier,
Will it accept satellite weather info and display it on the map? Or does this question fall into the "unmentionables" category? :)

Kind regards,
Pierre
 
Yes.
We also have traffic (using several systems) on the wishlist, countless smaller enhancements, ARINC interface, I/O expander to monitor/control all sorts of things, multiple cameras in addition to infrared nightvision...

Without going into much detail, it is our aim to get Enigma to do everything. And by that we really mean EVERYTHING.

At the same time we are working hard on a whole arsenal of related instruments from smaller form factor primary flight, engine monitor and GPS systems to our large screen Odyssey...

Enigma will likely remain the "core" - from here we go smaller and bigger. Enigma's size was choosen as a "best fit" for the widest possible range of panels from small Ultralights through to helicopters right up to the bigger iron.

Rainier

pierre smith said:
Hi Rainier,
Will it accept satellite weather info and display it on the map? Or does this question fall into the "unmentionables" category? :)

Kind regards,
Pierre
Click to expand...
 
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