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RV-12 Update

DeltaRomeo

doug reeves: unfluencer
Staff member
April, 07

Our RV-12 Proof-of-Concept prototype N912VA has flown about sixty hours now. That may not seem like a lot, but when you consider almost all it has been in real-world flight test, you can see that it?s had the opportunity to teach us quite a bit.

Here?s some updates on our progress so far, with notes on various aspects of the airplane:

ROTAX 912S ENGINE-CARE AND FEEDING THEREOF
The RV-12 is our first experience installing, operating, and servicing the 100 hp Rotax 912 engine. Being a liquid cooled, high RPM, geared engine, it is quite different than the Continental and Lycoming engines.

Installation was more challenging than a Lycoming because the engine has two carburetors, a separate oil tank, and two heat exchangers; the coolant radiator and the oil cooler. On the plus side, with liquid cooled cylinder heads, no baffles other than a shroud for the inner fins of the cylinders are needed.

We mounted the heat exchangers vertically in the lower forward cowl, under the spinner, and fed them air through a single horizontal oval inlet. Mounting them to the cowl isolates them from engine vibration and provides an excellent seal, so no air is lost through duct connections or relative motion between the cowl opening and the coolers. There are also two small round inlets near the spinner which provide air to the carburetors and cool the inboard portion of the cylinders. They have worked very well in keeping the cylinder head temperatures cool.

The oil cooler has worked too well in the cool ambient temperatures we?ve experienced testing in autumn and winter. Rotax specifies that engine RPM should not exceed 2500 (the Rotax idles at 1200 rpm and red line is 5800 RPM, so 2500 rpm is still low power) until oil temps reach 120 deg. F. This has caused long run-up times before take-off.

Operating the Rotax is a very pleasant experience. The Bing carbs are equipped with chokes for starting rather than primers (older drivers will remember chokes; they were common way back when cars had carburetors.) They also feature automatic mixture compensation for altitude changes, so there is no mixture control in the cockpit. The engine starts easier than either a carbureted or fuel injected Lycoming. It is smooth and quiet, both on ground and in flight.

Fuel consumption is obviously lower than other RVs because of the low power of the engine. However, despite magazine writers like to rhapsodize about how the Rotax "sips" fuel, its consumption (in our experience and from Rotax charts), is consistent with other aircraft engines of similar power. Its Specific Fuel Consumption (bsfc) is similar to Lycoming and Continental engines, so at rated 75% power, it burns about 5.8 GPH. Figures like "3.5 to 4.5 gph" are often quoted in flight reports, but these can only be achieved by using less than 75% power and should be noted as "economy cruise consumption" figures.

HANDLING QUALITIES
The full span flaperons provide brisk roll control, similar in roll rate to an RV-9. Initially, stick forces required were very light, so we tailored the flaperon trailing edges to provide a pleasant stick force level. During the design phase, we worried about possible adverse yaw when the flaperons were lowered into the flap positions. Testing revealed that adverse yaw is minimal and easily coordinated with light rudder pressure.

The new (to us) stabilator has proven to provide good pitch control, pitch stick force, and damping. The RV-12 has an electric pitch trim which repositions the large anti-servo tab on the stabilator trailing edge. The trim rate is moderately slow, with no tendency for over-control.

Stall characteristics are good. Tail surface buffeting several mph above stall speed provides ample warning. The nose pitches down when the full stall is reached, and flight control is regained almost instantly when stick backforce is released. In an aggravated stall when the stick is held back through out the actual stall, one wing or the other will drop as much as 30 degrees.

We contracted with a professional test pilot to explore the spin characteristics of the RV-12. The results were very encouraging. Spin entry and recovery was found to be normal and predictable. Good rudder control authority was found both during spin entry and recovery. The RV-12 tail configuration, with the vertical surfaces positioned forward of the horizontal surfaces, provides minimal blanking of the rudder in all conceivable pitch attitudes. Recovery from 1-turn spins was achieved in less than ? turn following anti-spin control application.

PERFORMANCE
Strange as it may seem, we have not expended a lot of effort on measuring the RV-12 performance. We measured enough to realize that the performance was "good", and then concentrated on stall speed, stability, controllability, weight and balance, and other such issues. Here are some basic numbers:

Cruise Speed (75% power @8,000?) 118 kts.
Climb rate: 1320 lbs. gross wt. 750 fpm
Climb rate: (solo, 1000 lbs) 1100 fpm
Stall speed: @ 1320 lbs. 50 kts

STALL SPEED
Stall speed has been one of the tougher nuts to crack, and the focus of much of our test flying. Initial testing showed that the RV-12 no-flap stall speed was higher than 45 knots required by the rules of the Light Sport category.

We experimented fairly extensively with corrective measures. We tried vortex generators in many configurations and placements. We even made full-span leading edge cuffs that increased the camber of the wing. Neither improved the stall speed -- and just to make things more frustrating, the cuffs actually reduced the cruise speed.

Airflow tuft testing of the airframe showed undesirable flow under some conditions at the wing root/fuselage intersection -- not unusual for low wing airplanes. We devoted considerable time and effort installing and testing various wing root filets in an attempt to improve lift in this region and thus lower stall speed. The airflow was improved somewhat, but there was no measurable improvement in stall speed.

IN THE (NEAR) FUTURE:
Work is underway to design and build a new KIT PROTOTYPE airframe (as opposed to the PROOF OF CONCEPT PROTOTYPE described above).

  • It will have an improved wing with a different airfoil and more area.
  • We found we could improve the CG by moving the engine forward. At least two good things came out of this: improved access to the back of the engine and about 2 more inches of legroom in the cabin.
  • The canopy on N912VA has never been a beauty point. It was built with some plexiglass canopy halves left over from an earlier project. The kit prototype will feature a much more attractive 1-piece blown canopy with additional headroom, designed specifically for the RV-12.
WHEN?
Our best projection is that the new Kit Prototype RV-12 should be ready to fly late in the third quarter of 2007. Kit availability will depend upon the test flight findings of that aircraft and on our ability to initiate component production both in-house and from our suppliers. We hope to have at least partial kits available in the fourth quarter of 2007 or the first quarter of 2008.
 
DeltaRomeo said:
April, 07

...We tried vortex generators in many configurations and placements. We even made full-span leading edge cuffs that increased the camber of the wing. Neither improved the stall speed ...
Interesting that Van's, with all their resources could not reduce the stall speed on this airplane and so many individuals feel that they have, with things such as vortex generators. I believe that vortex generators could possibly work to this purpose, but fear that measurement difficulties typically overshadow those benefits.
 
Good news indeed!

Their experiences with the Rotax are similar to mine and other CT operators. We find cruise fuel burns of 5 / 5.5 gph. Starting with the choke is pretty easy. Just remember that the choke only works if the throttle is FULLY closed (how do I know? ;) )

Moving the engine forward would be a good idea. The water pump needs to be inspected periodically, as does the generator / alternator. These are on the very back of the engine.

With regard to the long warm-up times, there are two possible solutions: The low-tech one is a strip of 2" HVAC-type metal foil tape on the top of the radiator and oil cooler. Works like a charm in the CT where the oil cooler is in front of the radiator. High-tech solution is a oil thermostat / varitherm. Well proven on the Rotax, about $90.

Interesting that they are having problems with the 45kt limit. There should be plenty of wing at 11 lb/sf (@MGTW). In the CT we just meet the 45 kt limit with 12.2 lb/sf, but we have STOL-type drooped wingtips and a very clean wing.
 
Just a couple of comments -

Strictly speaking, the Bing carbs do not have 'choke' - they have a plunger operated enriching circuit that opens up an extra fuel port. That's the reason you must have the throttle closed when using it. Normal for most CV carbs such as fitted to old Pommie cars and a lot of bikes.

Also the need for masking off the oil cooler. I fitted an aftermarket oil thermostat on my Rotax 912 and it halved the amount of warm-up time.

The stall speed issue is interesting. I guess it comes back to being open and honest about the figures Vans are getting. Not so sure if the same can be said of some others...

Anyway, looks like they are well on the way.

Martin in Oz
 
GREAT to hear more news!

Too bad they have to redo a few items, must be frustrating. Good thing is we'll benefit from a nicely refined airframe. Can't wait...
 
Our bench testing on a 912 also revealed how hard it was to get oil temps up to minimum. Even with no cooler at around 0C, we were finally forced to add a 250 watt pad heater to the oil tank. The dry sump tank setup, despite being stainless, sinks a lot of heat out of the oil.

Luckily there is no minimum coolant temp. With no coolant thermostat, low coolant temps tend to also suppress oil temps. The idea of an oil thermostat is good. I have one of these on my Subaru and the oil warms up faster than the coolant. Van's might want to consider this simple mod.
Mocal makes a wide variety.
 
InsideOut said:
GREAT to hear more news!

Too bad they have to redo a few items, must be frustrating. Good thing is we'll benefit from a nicely refined airframe. Can't wait...
I'm a little disappointed at this setback of needing to go to a whole new wing design. I'll just have to be patient. Ultimately they'll be putting out a good aircraft.

With the lull in updates, I was hoping they were going to suprise us and show up at SnF with a painted, completed aircraft!:eek:

I wonder if any other of their design elements are being reconsidered based on their POC... ie: removable wings or fuselage fuel tank?

Also - regarding the speeds - I wonder if these are with wheel pants or any other needed fairings? Anybody have any estimates on what wheel pants could add to a 118 kt. aircraft?

Oh... and did you note the new design view on the update page has a different nose gear? The previous design looked more rugged. I hope that if they go to a swiveling nosewheel - "A" style - they improve any weaknesses of that design.
 
Last edited:
rv6ejguy said:
Our bench testing on a 912 also revealed how hard it was to get oil temps up to minimum. Even with no cooler at around 0C, we were finally forced to add a 250 watt pad heater to the oil tank. The dry sump tank setup, despite being stainless, sinks a lot of heat out of the oil.
Reiff makes a Rotax 912 preheat kit that consists of a 100W hot pad for the bottom of the block and a 50W hot band that goes around the oil tank. Coolant gets warmed up some as the block gets warmed. I've talked to several folks who have this in their CTs and they say the engine starts happily and warms up fine.

If I were in a climate where the temperature normally cycled from, say 40F to 80F (e.g.,Montana), I'd get the oil thermostat fitted. Otherwise, I'll stick with the metal foil tape method - it's already paid for ;)

Van notes that the design of the 912 cooling system allows for a very tight cowling. This would certainly help in cooler temps. In the summer, though, one needs to keep the engine cool or switch to the PITA Evans waterless coolant to allow higher CHT / coolant temps.
 
I've flown with a plane with Rotax 912 where the oil and water coolers are "connected". This heats up oil quicker than with normal setup as the water tends to warm up faster. This setup is coming more common here since temperatures are generally low and the warm up time with normal oil and water setup ain't flying...
 
Wheel pant speed

Phyrcooler said:
I'm a little disappointed at this setback of needing to go to a whole new wing design. I'll just have to be patient. Ultimately they'll be putting out a good aircraft.

With the lull in updates, I was hoping they were going to suprise us and show up at SnF with a painted, completed aircraft!:eek:

I wonder if any other of their design elements are being reconsidered based on their POC... ie: removable wings or fuselage fuel tank?

Also - regarding the speeds - I wonder if these are with wheel pants or any other needed fairings? Anybody have any estimates on what wheel pants could add to a 118 kt. aircraft?

Oh... and did you note the new design view on the update page has a different nose gear? The previous design looked more rugged. I hope that if they go to a swiveling nosewheel - "A" style - they improve any weaknesses of that design.

On my -7A, the wheelpants and leg/intersection fairings added about 15% to the cruise speed.
 
120 kts maximum

Phyrcooler said:
Also - regarding the speeds - I wonder if these are with wheel pants or any other needed fairings? Anybody have any estimates on what wheel pants could add to a 118 kt. aircraft?
Light Sport Aircraft are limited by regulation to 120 kts maximum, so I don't think Van's will be looking for extra speed.
 
This 'not making the stall minimum' is concerning. Sure, a fatter wing can be used but at what cost to overall performance? One thing that I dont like about, say, Ultralights, is the 'fat' wings some have to use and the dismally slow (even for them) flight envelope it creates. If the -12 does have to go with a fat wing maybe things such as wheel pants/fairings will allow it to still come close to the max allowable speeds.
 
Dave Cole said:
Light Sport Aircraft are limited by regulation to 120 kts maximum, so I don't think Van's will be looking for extra speed.
I am interested in the RV-12 not as an LSA - but as a more economical, easier to build first time kit. From what I have read here, and other forums, I am not alone. I have a full PPL - so I am not restricted by LSA rules. So, I can prop, fair, and wheelpants it to its full capability. Even at 118 - 120 kts. I am still cruising nicely at 172 speeds (actually faster than most of the old birds I fly now!) So, I can be happy with that. Anything else is just icing on the cake. :D
 
Phyrcooler said:
I am interested in the RV-12 not as an LSA - but as a more economical, easier to build first time kit. From what I have read here, and other forums, I am not alone. I have a full PPL - so I am not restricted by LSA rules. So, I can prop, fair, and wheelpants it to its full capability. Even at 118 - 120 kts. I am still cruising nicely at 172 speeds (actually faster than most of the old birds I fly now!) So, I can be happy with that. Anything else is just icing on the cake. :D
You can always equip the 912S with a adjustable pitch (not CS) prop, provided that you get the right version ahead of time. That would help get more speed from the -12 if you're not interested in LSA compliance.
 
I think the 45 kt stall is a good figure for this category. Having to lose 6 kts to comply is considerable, but I would think that the fix shouldn't effect 75% cruise nearly that much. So, I'm not terribly concerned at this point. I wouldn't be surprised to see a kt or two gain just from losing the center seam in the canopy.

Weight and balance issues are still at the top of my list of concerns. Gaining two inches leg room AND added room behind the engine sounds like a huge adjustment to me.

Anyway, sounds like we have to wait for another whole airplane to be built before we get more info. :(
 
Design changes to the RV-12

At this time, RV-12 pretty much suits my flying mission profile. I may build a 9-A someday but for now, as an older and relative 'novice' pilot, the 12 seems perfect. I will be delighted to fly the 12 in whatever configuration Vans comes up with as long as it is configured as a low wing aircraft and has removable wings. I need to be able to place our 12 inside of a trailer and tow it to and from the airport at will - not just at the beginning and close of the season. :)

My view of the current conceptual aircraft is that it is excellent as it is but as long as Vans is changing it, I would like to see the following design changes made;

Change the braking and steering systems to dual differential brakes and a swiveling nosewheel (like the rest ot the RV-A's). I don't mind a little more weight or complexity, build time, or expense.

Keep the length of the horizontal stabilizer short enough that I can place the fuselage inside of a trailer without removing the HS - a real plus in my opinion. I suppose that for aerodynamic reasons, this might require lenghtening the fuselage both ahead and behind the wing. I don't know beans about designing 'real' airplanes so I'll leave that to you who are experts. :D

I can live with the fuel tank located behind my seat but would like a little room for 'luggage' somewhere back there. And how about a 'Vans RV' type wing tip - better looking and maybe that would help lower the stall speed a little - who knows? Yeah, I know, weight, complexity, costs go up - but remember, these are changes that 'I' would like to see made!!!

Also, I hope that Vans is allowing room somewhere in the fuselage or wings for an auto pilot installation - a lot of us will be making X-countries in this aircraft "just for the fun of it" and an AP would put the 'frosting on the cake' for me!!! Obviously, I don't mind spending more time or money on our 12. I don't want a 7 or 9, just want this aircraft to be the best 12 that I can build (for me)!!!

I'll be interested to know what you all think and what changes you would make in order to have a better RV-12. Enough said - Juang and I will see you at the Homecomings in our new RV-12. We can't wait to start building next year. :)
 
Oil Temp

I rent a Evektor Sport Star with the 912. If I had to wait on 120 degree oil, I'd never get to take off. I was flying my first solo cross country yesterday. Looked down at the gauges and saw the needle below green. I thought I was looking at the oil pressure gauge. Got my heart pumping pretty good before I realized I was looking at the oil temp gauge, not the oil presure gauge. :eek: This was on the last 25 miles of a 125 mile trip. I dont think the oil temp ever got in the green.
 
I'm curious what they are using for flight test pitot and static sources. Can anyone who has seen the RV-12 prototype comment on whether they have installed a flight test airspeed boom to move the pitot and static sources well ahead of the aircraft? Does it have a swivelling pitot head, with vanes to keep it pointed into wind? Or, are they using a trailing cone static source?

I have to assume they have some sort of special flight test airspeed system, as they would know that conventional pitot and static sources would likely have large errors near the stall, rendering the IAS values meaningless.
 
Van's is Paying Attention

Just a quick update to let you know that Van's is out there looking at other LSA and paying attention to what they hear. I was at the 1st annual FlightDesign CT fly-in and ran into a un-named Van's employee who is currently flight testing the RV-12. Oh, what the heck, it was Ken.

Ken was very interested in the CT, its pluses and minuses, design quirks, maintenance issues, operator experiences, etc. I would imagine that some of this info will work its way back to the drawing board and to the RV-12. By not being on the leading edge (pardon the pun), Van's can learn from the mistakes and successes of others in the LSA crowd.
 
Mike Armstrong said:
This 'not making the stall minimum' is concerning. Sure, a fatter wing can be used but at what cost to overall performance? One thing that I dont like about, say, Ultralights, is the 'fat' wings some have to use and the dismally slow (even for them) flight envelope it creates. If the -12 does have to go with a fat wing maybe things such as wheel pants/fairings will allow it to still come close to the max allowable speeds.
Fat wing = slow flight is simply not true. If the airplane fly slow it is either meant to do so, or the wing design is poor in some way or the other. I fly an Atec Zephyr 2000. At MTOW that plane cruises at 120 knot IAS, and stalls at 25 clean. The airfoil is UL2, and it is VERY fat. On the other hand the wing planform is a bit more complex than the shape of a door.
 
SvingenB said:
Fat wing = slow flight is simply not true. If the airplane fly slow it is either meant to do so, or the wing design is poor in some way or the other. I fly an Atec Zephyr 2000. At MTOW that plane cruises at 120 knot IAS, and stalls at 25 clean. The airfoil is UL2, and it is VERY fat. On the other hand the wing planform is a bit more complex than the shape of a door.
The manufacturer of the Atec Zephyr 2000 claims a stall speed of 35 knots, flaps down. http://www.atecvos.cz/html.php?ver=htm&pg=zephyr&lang=en
To what do you attribute your incredibly lower stall speed?
 
Stall Speed

If the stall speed of the current 12 wing is a problem, I would think that the RV-9 wing could be a great choice for Van to consider. I think it uses a Clark Y airfoil and seems to do a terrific job of offering a good low stall speed. Surely it wouldn?t be an overwhelming task to adapt that to the 12. Also, think of the advantage for them, being able to share parts between the two models. It works for me!! Oh yes, in case there are still some folks who are not interested in the removable wing feature, and, if it was possible to keep the CG within the envelope, wing tanks could be a possibility. Food for thought!
 
The RV-9 uses a custom "Ronz" airfoil with camber on top behind the center of lift. The Clark-Y is a flat bottom airfoil. See the J-3 Cub. The Clark-Y would probably be better suited for the -12 than the -9 airfoil.
 
n5lp said:
The manufacturer of the Atec Zephyr 2000 claims a stall speed of 35 knots, flaps down. http://www.atecvos.cz/html.php?ver=htm&pg=zephyr&lang=en
To what do you attribute your incredibly lower stall speed?
I guess some of it is pitot error at high AOA. More exactly; I know that some of it is pitot error by having compared with the GPS ;) OK, I have not been entirely honest here, but the numbers from the manufactorer are way conservative in both directions. It doesn't really stall, it starts shaking and shakes harder when pulling more on the stick while mushing gently down at idle power (if you are gentle on the stick and rudder). It cruises at 90 knots IAS (104 mph) at 4200 RPM on the Rotax 912 80 HP at MTOW. At 5200 RPM, which is normal cruise RPM for a 912, it goes past 120 knots IAS (138 mph). It has a glide ratio of 17/1, which is also not something normally associated with a thick wing.
 
I Stand Corrected

Thanks Mel. I happen to have a PA-11, with a C90-8 in it. Now I know what a Clark Y looks like, and flies like! I still like the RV-9 wing though. Also, looking at what Jay Kurtz did with his 9, registering it as an E-LSA, it must meet the stall requirements. So, a Ronz airfoil may not be a bad choice. But, I think that we have some real talent, out there in Oregon, who will find a solution to the problem. I am trying to wait patiently for the product of their efforts.

Tom
 
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